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Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/23/2017 5:04:26 PM

darryltinney

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Assume I have a Armor division attached to a HQ. They are within 5 hexes of each other and are in range. It is the beginning of a turn.

Now the armor division moves say 20 hexes away and is going to attack an enemy unit. The HQ is now > than 5 hexes from the armor. The armor unit will be in "red" when the HQ is selected.

Is the attack affected by the HQ being greater than 5 hexes away? Should the HQ be moved up before combat is initiated? Or does it only matter at the beginning and end of a turn.

Thanks for any insight.

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/23/2017 5:14:06 PM

Telemecus

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AFAIK it affects combat in two ways
i) Ratings check probability goes down (nothing special about 5 hexes - the first level HQ sees them go down for every hex away)
ii) Support units (e.g. artillery held in HQ) will not help in combat - and moving the HQ closer will not help in hasty attacks - but for deliberate attacks moving the HQ closer could mean SUs help

Basically as soon as you move the HQ its SUs will no longer help that unit (or others in its command) with SUs in hasty attacks, so you should only move it after any such attacks that you want to help with SUs. After that moving an HQ as close as possible to the combat unit (not just 5 hexes away) will increase the odds of a victory - but at the cost of supplies etc in moving it.

Most other things to do with hexes away (e.g supply etc.) only matter after the end of your turn

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/23/2017 5:20:56 PM >

(in reply to darryltinney)

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/23/2017 5:49:01 PM

EwaldvonKleist

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AFAIK the distance unit-HQ doesn't affect leader rolls for the HQ the unit is directly attached to?

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/23/2017 6:01:31 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

AFAIK the distance unit-HQ doesn't affect leader rolls for the HQ the unit is directly attached to?

This is what I used to believe but understand this not to be true now. Take a corps with an infantry division - if the corps HQ is on top of the infantry division no range modifier. If 1 hex away a range penalty, 2 hexes away a further penalty etc. The manual is a little ambiguous and I used to think it was only the HQs higher than the first level that got affected by range penalties. But tests seemed to show otherwise, and at least the logic would make this analogous to the higher HQs. Certainly I feel 1st level HQs on top of their direct reports get better results than 2 or 3 hexes away, after that the effect is not noticeable as the maths would imply.

Again anyone who can correct me please do, and with version changes etc this is always a moving target. Getting precise final definitive answers with complex things like this is not easy - and there are many threads in these forums on precisely this point many of which never got properly answered.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/23/2017 6:08:49 PM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/23/2017 6:09:16 PM

EwaldvonKleist

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How did you do the tests? Did you use the displayed chances to pass the leader roll in the logistics phase window?

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/23/2017 6:24:44 PM

Telemecus

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Myself a bit cruder. I set a human versus human game where I played both sides and set up lots of things I wanted to test. So in this case a particular combat where everything was the same except the position of a corps HQ. Then repeatedly tried the combat from two different HQ positions and reloaded to try again. Spent most of a whole day doing it, got bored and never will do that again. I guess my sample size is much smaller than if it could have been automated and I did not work out significances etc. But it was a sample of final results and not intermediate variables. It left me convinced and experience since (on versions before 1.10) reaffirmed this. I think someone else tried testing it too.

The successive range penalties come in at

2nd level HQ: 1 hex or less, 3 or less, 5 or less
3rd level HQ: 2 hex or less, 5 hex or less, 8 or less
4th level HQ: 3 hex or less, 7 hex or less, 11 hex or less

if the first level was analogous it would be

1st level HQ: 0 hex, 1 hex, 2 hex etc

If you reread the manual you can see it would also fit this description as well as the no effect description.

Because the range modifier comes in as a denominator its effect decreases the larger it gets. You cannot notice anything between 4 or 5 hexes away. But the difference between none and some is greater.

All this said - if supply is a constraint (which it is) there are good reasons for keeping an HQ 5 hexes away closer to rail lines and not moving it more than that.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/23/2017 6:51:04 PM >

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)

Post #: 6

RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/23/2017 6:30:58 PM

EwaldvonKleist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Again anyone who can correct me please do, and with version changes etc this is always a moving target. Getting precise final definitive answers with complex things like this is not easy - and there are many threads in these forums on precisely this point many of which never got properly answered.

Yes very true.
IMO it reduces the value of the impressive work the volunteer developers do by a good amount if one loses the overview. One always feels bad during play because one can't be sure what are the current rules.
Some people tried to cope with this by creating up to date manuals (I did for myself as well with the "how supply works" document). But this doesn't solve the problem entirely and there are all the times questions of new players who are confused by the changes.
This leads to a permanent spam of questions (to which I contribute myself). I can very well understand if the code-access people are tired to answer them.
Too much information is spread over the thousands of posts on this great forum.
Partially it is also the fault of the old manual which is rather imprecise at times. I hope it will get better in WitE 2. Maybe there can be a short version to get into the game and a long one explaining things in detail.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 5/23/2017 6:32:34 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/23/2017 6:49:33 PM

Telemecus

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EwaldvonKleist makes some good points and apologies to darryltinney for hijacking their thread.

Ultimately these forums are unstructured content - so full of repetitions etc. Perhaps an enhanced wiki would be better - but the WitE wiki died. The best of posts collection might be better if was maintained - at least questions like this could have a status of best known answer/ unresolved etc. A more active sticky system to put documents like how supply works at the top would also be good. This very point on first level HQs was one of my first questions on these forums and never got answered. You can still search for it and see. Probably it has been asked many times and may even have been answered - but I do not know where.

On the other hand it may be a lesson in having to cope with uncertainty. I loved maths at school and can quote proofs which have the aura of precision and immutability. But when they finally proved the four colour theorem (any map can be coloured in four colours with no bordering country the same) the proof included 1000s of hours of computer calculations going through combinations by brute force. Is that a proof - or an "experiment". What are the odds that there is an error? I suspect in a software engineering project such as this there are things that even the coders do not know. Perhaps an old coder who did left - or this emerged rather than was designed. Perhaps the perfect manual does not exist - just like in real life?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/23/2017 6:52:49 PM >

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/23/2017 7:00:01 PM

morvael

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I think it was actually part of the designer's vision that many systems in the game are black boxes and you're not supposed to analyze them in detail like rules of a board game. Certain formulas are also very hard to write down in words. You're supposed to play by intuition rather than knowledge.

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/23/2017 7:10:33 PM

EwaldvonKleist

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In general, that is a very good approach. But the problem is that WitE has a lot of counterintuitive and all or nothing things. So you can put information in the manual or let them find it out in 4h of testing-whatever you do, the information will be there in the end anyway.
For example one would assume that HQs should be close to the untis for maximum supply because moving supplies from the railhead to the HQ in a big trail is more efficient than moving it in small portions from the HQ to the unit.
However, exactly the opposite is true in WitE. Just one example.
Same with retreat paths and so on.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 5/23/2017 7:11:01 PM >

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/24/2017 2:17:35 PM

Telemecus

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I went back to reread the manual and thought I had better give more background to my conclusions. The range modifier for first level is as described in the manual in this section

"Each level of headquarters unit has a designated number that the range from it to the unit is divided by to get the modifier as
follows:
Headquarter Unit Level Range Modifier Divisor
Corps (Type 4) 1
Army (Type 3) 2
AG/Front/MD (Type 2) 3
High Command (Type 1) 4"

The problem comes from the first sentence which says

"A command range modifier is applied to leader rating checks conducted by leaders in headquarters units to which the unit involved is not
directly attached, i.e. HQ units higher up the chain of command. "

That is why I for a long time, and I assume others, believe the first level HQ did not have a range modifier. I think this question keeps getting asked though because it contradicts what comes next in the manual - if corps do not have a range modifier why does its range modifier have a divisor?

As I said I tested it at least to the point where I was convinced that the first level does have a range modifier. As a result I and a few others I play regularly with changed completely the way we played. For instance we feel putting a German unit under a Rumanian corps in the same hex gives better results than a German corps HQ five hexes away. At least for us it is now established fact. But I think I forgot that this is a conclusion of a small group and not a general consensus or generally established fact. So I should not have written it that way. Apologies darryltinney!

In effect you have two options. The safe one is to assume it does not, as most others do not. Or to assume it does as a few such as I do. At the time I was considering it I concluded that the first sentence must be either confused - they meant to say the range element in ratings checks does not have a modifier (as it is divided by 1), it does not consider support units directly attached to combat units, or somehow otherwise got garbled in transmission. The example at the end also omits to consider whether a corps could have a range modifier.

From an intuitive point of view it seems strange that you can improve yours odds of victory by moving an army, army group or high command HQ closer, but not the corps. While the game engine can at times be counterintuitive it would seem strange that the logic the game designers made for some headquarters does not apply to others. Even when they are counterintuitive they tend to be consistent.

While I am sure that there is a range modifier for the 1st level HQ, I cannot be sure of the formula. What I have described is only the best way I can square it with the manual.

darryltinney, I guess for a newb question you did not expect long digressions through scientific method and philosophies to come to the conclusion that there was no definite answer. Welcome to War in the East!

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/25/2017 2:02:00 PM >

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/24/2017 2:23:56 PM

morvael

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Direct HQs should be kept within 5 hexes of the units, because otherwise they are not sending support units to help in combat.

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/24/2017 2:32:24 PM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Direct HQs should be kept within 5 hexes of the units, because otherwise they are not sending support units to help in combat.

Thx. If I understand Telemecus correctly, he's wondering (as am I) that when doing hasties it is worth keeping your direct HQ within 5 hexes for better CV rolls?
It's understood that SU's won't help unless you do deliberates.

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/24/2017 2:35:52 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Direct HQs should be kept within 5 hexes of the units, because otherwise they are not sending support units to help in combat.

Thx. If I understand Telemecus correctly, he's wondering (as am I) that when doing hasties it is worth keeping your direct HQ within 5 hexes for better CV rolls?
It's understood that SU's won't help unless you do deliberates.

In fact I would go even further than that. If you do a hasty and move an HQ from 20 hexes to 5 hexes away you probably will not notice a difference. But if you are doing a hasty and move an HQ from 3 hexes away to 0 hexes away (for a corps), and ignoring SUs, you should notice ratings checks do improve. And similarly for MP ratings checks etc.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/24/2017 2:37:06 PM >

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/24/2017 2:53:44 PM

MrBlizzard

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Very interesting finding Telemecus, I'll try it as soon as possible

_____________________________

Blizzard

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 5/25/2017 1:18:26 PM

No idea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

In general, that is a very good approach. But the problem is that WitE has a lot of counterintuitive and all or nothing things. So you can put information in the manual or let them find it out in 4h of testing-whatever you do, the information will be there in the end anyway.
For example one would assume that HQs should be close to the untis for maximum supply because moving supplies from the railhead to the HQ in a big trail is more efficient than moving it in small portions from the HQ to the unit.
However, exactly the opposite is true in WitE. Just one example.
Same with retreat paths and so on.

For this kind of game, where many things are yes or no (for example, you are in range for hq buldup or you arent, you are in range for su units to take part in combat or you arent...) I think that is a bad philosophy. If all the things were gradual, the game could be played intuitively, but too many important things arent gradual.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 6/2/2017 6:35:13 PM

EwaldvonKleist

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@no idea:

quote:

For this kind of game, where many things are yes or no (for example, you are in range for hq buldup or you arent, you are in range for su units to take part in combat or you arent...) I think that is a bad philosophy. If all the things were gradual, the game could be played intuitively, but too many important things arent gradual.

Yes, I completely agree.

@Telemecus:

quote:

In fact I would go even further than that. If you do a hasty and move an HQ from 20 hexes to 5 hexes away you probably will not notice a difference. But if you are doing a hasty and move an HQ from 3 hexes away to 0 hexes away (for a corps), and ignoring SUs, you should notice ratings checks do improve. And similarly for MP ratings checks etc.

Hortlund will most likely send a NKVD squad after me for sharing information with the enemy but:
In the "supply details window" which one can find by clicking on "supply details" on the unit detail window.
It lists the chances to pass a leaders test. If you move a high level HQ away, the chance is reduced. But moving the first level HQ, usually the Corps, doesnt change anything. Better try it out yourself, i might have overseen something.

As a side effect I found out that the chance to get a successful leader roll goes up 5% for the Soviet side if you play communist music in the background.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 6/2/2017 7:01:21 PM >

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 6/3/2017 7:58:43 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
Hortlund will most likely send a NKVD squad after me for sharing information with the enemy but:

Everyone on this thread promises to not tell Hortlund

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
In the "supply details window" which one can find by clicking on "supply details" on the unit detail window.
It lists the chances to pass a leaders test. If you move a high level HQ away, the chance is reduced. But moving the first level HQ, usually the Corps, doesn't change anything. Better try it out yourself, i might have overseen something.

I did and spent a long time doing this. I did lots of different cases with lots of different combinations (axis/soviet, after/before the unit moved, corps as first level or something else as first level etc.) The higher level HQ being moved away reduced chances, and being moved closer increased chances, except for morale (which I assume you meant to exclude) and when the HQ was already a long way away and moved very little (which I put down to a change being too small to reach the required decimal places). On the other hand a first level HQ with similar variations produced no change in the chances. Other factors that changed (like fatigue/movement points etc.) changed in the same way in each direction. If you have overseen something so have I.

For me this is better than a manual description. Whatever the ambiguity, confusion or contradiction I can detect there, this I would say trumps whatever comes out of a second hand narrative.

However this left me a bit disturbed. I had spent a long time thinking and working on this to get a different conclusion. And although I have glanced a few times at the chances in the supply details, I did not remember thinking about it much at all then. As I said before I spent a long time setting up a test which I spent a very boring day doing to get an "answer". So I had to go back and compare what my test was to what those displayed percentages were. Which meant getting an old laptop to install an old version of War in the East to open the files before I realised that the percentages displayed would not be there because it was a feature added in a later version. On the other hand it got me thinking that having done all that work to display percentages perhaps work was done by the developers to correct bugs and problems which is what my test was detecting. And that they had done that work to properly describe what the chances were. Whether there was an error in how I designed the test or a bug/error that was corrected though I think I have to say at the very least it looks like the conclusions I reached are not true for the latest versions. In addition I would say I have a fair amount of in-game experience of seeing ratings improve with 1st level HQs being closer - but almost all of older versions.

The clincher would be to repeat the test with the latest version and find that it matches the percentages displayed (closely enough). It would also eliminate the (small) possibility that the displayed percentages are being calculated separately from the battle engine code, and so could differ, or any errors from using an intermediate rather than a final variable. But honestly I find that kind of testing so boring for what is a game that I shiver at the thought of doing it again!

On the weight of evidence we can see here I think I might have to reconsider those conclusions and change the way I play back again.

It is interesting that this is not the first time this issue has been raised, so I think it is fair to say the manual does have a problem. In these kinds of things the tables are often produced by the coders themselves whereas the narrative is by one person removed. My instincts on reading that section still say that the differences in their descriptions reflect what could be an error or bug somewhere at some time if not how I thought it would be now. Which increases my frustration on why the manual could not be updated at least when the code was made for displaying percentages etc - we can see in these forums how often the question is asked. It could be answered in the manual properly once, and with the confidence that someone understands the issue and has checked it out.

I understand the point that some things are meant to be unknown "black boxes" - but it is absolutely clear it does not apply here. The manual makes it clear it is telling you what the effect of corps are - the problem is not of leaving it unknown but of leaving it a contradiction. The headquarters are a core feature of how War in the East works and how it differs from other wargames, if we are guessing how they work we might as well not have a manual and call this the "guess what game it is" game. There is a difference between playing by intuition and playing blind. So a plea to the developers to make a definitive statement of how it works - and put it in the manual!

Finally a very big hats off to EwaldvonKleist. I would not otherwise have revisited something I closed a long time ago. This is a very big learning point for me and without EwaldvonKleist I would not have made it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
As a side effect I found out that the chance to get a successful leader roll goes up 5% for the Soviet side if you play communist music in the background.

But is there a sound volume modifier?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/3/2017 9:29:54 PM >

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 6/3/2017 10:36:55 PM

EwaldvonKleist

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@Telemecus: If you should dig deeper into this matter I will be very interested in the results.

quote:

I did and spent a long time doing this. I did lots of different cases with lots of different combinations (axis/soviet, after/before the unit moved, corps as first level or something else as first level etc.) The higher level HQ being moved away reduced chances, and being moved closer increased chances, except for morale (which I assume you meant to exclude)

What is different about morale?

Thanks to darryltinney for asking the question at the first time :)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
As a side effect I found out that the chance to get a successful leader roll goes up 5% for the Soviet side if you play communist music in the background.

But is there a sound volume modifier?

When playing the Soviet side I sometimes have a youtube playlist with contemporary soviet music in background (usually I play all computer games withouth any sound if possible). So its pretty easy to turn volume up or down.
Pretty smart by the developers that the leader roll bonus is applied even if the music play outside the WitE program.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 6/3/2017 10:56:19 PM >

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Post #: 19

RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 6/4/2017 2:55:50 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
@Telemecus: If you should dig deeper into this matter I will be very interested in the results.

I doubt I will as it is probably at the point where the effort to go further is too much for the rewards for me. If something changes knowing why it changed confirms the conclusion for me. Getting rid of the last scintillas of doubt would be nice, but in life I guess we have to go with the weight of evidence and live with some uncertainty. I would like it if someone did - but I suspect with a year or two to WitE2 this is going to be the final word.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
What is different about morale?

It is a good question why the developers decided to not apply a range modifier to morale. I assume their view is that an ordinary soldier gets more aggressive/confident/brave just by knowing he has a commander with a record of victories and approbation by others. So at the time of combat no new information/material is transmitted - there are no telephoned through orders or supplies delivered. So as the effect is instantaneous or pre-arranged how far away the leader is does not matter. There may be some truth in this but I think proximity to a leader does make a difference to morale. The German system almost made a virtue of the General visiting the front-line while the chief of staff stayed at HQ. The British general Montgomery, who I think is very overrated, however did get the visiting the front-line troops to boost morale right (except when visiting Americans). In business having a good leader just walking around near by is known to boost other managers too. So if anything proximity should matter.

On the other hand I think the leader makes the difference/ great men of history school is overblown. Most had greatness thrust upon them. Was Alexander great? Or was he lucky because he got the army his dad made for him? There are some very interesting transcripts published on the web of the interviews the American army conducted with Iraqi generals captured after the first gulf war. Calling them interrogations seems wrong to me as they are very free and frank exchanges between professional army officers. Their point time and time again was that modern industrial warfare depends on teamwork/organisation. The calls by their boss (Saddam Hussein) for the warrior spirit and bravery would have made little difference whatever the impact.

quote:

Thanks to darryltinney for asking the question at the first time :)

darryltinney will not be thanking us for the answer!

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/4/2017 3:40:26 PM >

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Post #: 20

RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 6/4/2017 3:51:06 PM

Telemecus

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On another related point I think this also impacts the question of where you put your best leaders - at the top or at the bottom. The usual wisdom is that the best leaders should go to the top. While there is a modifier for higher level commands, there are so many more units than the modifier that it makes sense to have the best leader at the top for morale. Another reason why I thought the corps had to have a range modifier is that this meant this would still be the best policy whatever the impact on other ratings.

However if a corps has no range modifier it may be best overall to put your best leaders into corps. They would have the full impact on say four divisions at the start unmodified over all ratings - which may be worth more than a morale rating diluted by higher command modifiers if you put them in OKH even if applied to all units. Simple worked examples with ratings calculated can show this but it depends on the relative weights you give to morale versus other ratings. This would be particularly true if you left OKH unmoved in Germany and choose your spearheads corps with lots of combat to get the best leaders.

So would that be an established wisdom worth changing? Again this is an old question that has been repeated. But I think the answer depends exclusively on whether corps have a range modifier.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/4/2017 4:03:34 PM >

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RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 6/5/2017 9:13:57 AM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

On another related point I think this also impacts the question of where you put your best leaders - at the top or at the bottom. The usual wisdom is that the best leaders should go to the top. While there is a modifier for higher level commands, there are so many more units than the modifier that it makes sense to have the best leader at the top for morale. Another reason why I thought the corps had to have a range modifier is that this meant this would still be the best policy whatever the impact on other ratings.

However if a corps has no range modifier it may be best overall to put your best leaders into corps. They would have the full impact on say four divisions at the start unmodified over all ratings - which may be worth more than a morale rating diluted by higher command modifiers if you put them in OKH even if applied to all units. Simple worked examples with ratings calculated can show this but it depends on the relative weights you give to morale versus other ratings. This would be particularly true if you left OKH unmoved in Germany and choose your spearheads corps with lots of combat to get the best leaders.

So would that be an established wisdom worth changing? Again this is an old question that has been repeated. But I think the answer depends exclusively on whether corps have a range modifier.

This point has being hashed over many, many times at game release and later no doubt. And I plead guilty of having taken part

It doesn't make sense that let's say Von Manstein would be less valuable at Army, AG or OKH than at Corps level but according to the rules he is. My unconfirmed hunch/feeling is that they have made changes to the code that contradict the rules as written which makes higher up HQ's more important than we are led to expect.
I certainly keep my Army HQ's close to the action. AG's only when RR are close. Corps as close as possible and moving them along in breakthroughs even when making hasties.
But that's just my "feeling".

(in reply to Telemecus)

Post #: 22

RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 6/5/2017 9:34:23 AM

EwaldvonKleist

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quote:

This point has being hashed over many, many times at game release and later no doubt. And I plead guilty of having taken part
It doesn't make sense that let's say Von Manstein would be less valuable at Army, AG or OKH than at Corps level but according to the rules he is. My unconfirmed hunch/feeling is that they have made changes to the code that contradict the rules as written which makes higher up HQ's more important than we are led to expect.
I certainly keep my Army HQ's close to the action. AG's only when RR are close. Corps as close as possible and moving them along in breakthroughs even when making hasties.
But that's just my "feeling".

In WitE the player does much stuff Manstein and others did in real life at army level and higher. Divisional level decisions are below the scale and corps level is between "still player controlled" and "abstracted/below the games scale".
I don't think he is necessarily more useful at corps level because at army/army groups level he rolls for more units.
Maybe one can say put your best leaders in single armies/corps at your schwerpunkt while attacking and spread them out when defending.

(in reply to glvaca)

Post #: 23

RE: Newbie HQ 5 Hex Question - 6/5/2017 10:01:39 AM

glvaca

Posts: 1312
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

quote:

This point has being hashed over many, many times at game release and later no doubt. And I plead guilty of having taken part
It doesn't make sense that let's say Von Manstein would be less valuable at Army, AG or OKH than at Corps level but according to the rules he is. My unconfirmed hunch/feeling is that they have made changes to the code that contradict the rules as written which makes higher up HQ's more important than we are led to expect.
I certainly keep my Army HQ's close to the action. AG's only when RR are close. Corps as close as possible and moving them along in breakthroughs even when making hasties.
But that's just my "feeling".

In WitE the player does much stuff Manstein and others did in real life at army level and higher. Divisional level decisions are below the scale and corps level is between "still player controlled" and "abstracted/below the games scale".
I don't think he is necessarily more useful at corps level because at army/army groups level he rolls for more units.
Maybe one can say put your best leaders in single armies/corps at your schwerpunkt while attacking and spread them out when defending.

Agreed. IT is an abstraction but if you read Lost Victories of Von Manstein, especially the back-hand blow, it is clear that Army/Corps commanders needed to verify their plans with AG's (i.e. him and/or his Chief of Staff). (Off course Hitler meddled too.) And that he intervened on several occasions.
For me this is the least developed part of the game so I just go with what I "feel" works best and unfortunately that is not historically correct.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)

Post #: 24