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Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/26/2017 10:03:08 AM

glvaca

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OK, after about 5years I'm trying to find my feet back into the game and catch up with all the changes. Just finished my turn 3 and the AAR will be 4 turns behind.

We're playing with patch 1.10 and these settings:
1. Mild winter
2. Random weather
3. RU attack +1

Only one house-rule: no para drops further than 3 hexes from a friendly unit. Which means I can expect amphibious landings at some point.

I have one question that I can't ask in the public forum which I hope you guys can help out with.
Rules state:
Many Italian and Hungarian units that begin scenarios in Hungary or Yugoslavia or further west are permanently frozen garrison units while others are frozen for a substantial number of turns.
If the Soviets capture a Hungarian or Rumanian town either West of hex column 60 or south of hex row 110, then all of these Axis Allied units on the map are unfrozen.

However, at the beginning of T3 I see this and all Axis allies are still frozen: This is clearly West of X60. anyone? Thx!

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< Message edited by glvaca -- 5/26/2017 10:05:05 AM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/26/2017 10:53:01 AM

glvaca

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I think I was actually one of the first 3 to download the game when it came out. pressing the refresh button like crazy before release

I started playing the Germans first, than switched to the Russians and then played about even. At the time I had two passions, IL2 Sturmovik flight sim and WITE (or wargaming in general). I've played numerous hard core wargames over the years including boardgames and I have about 5000 15mm hand painted Napoleonic figurines.

Anyway, I didn't stop playing because I was tired of the game but rather because I was deeply involved in the IL2 Sim world including campaign design, and when I got the opportunity to design a Mediterranean 4 map multi sector campaign, I couldn't refuse. The challenge was to great to pass up on. It took 6 months to setup (creating maps, sorting out which air/ground/naval units were involved, writing the rules, getting the participating squads to agree, etc...) and a year to run. More than 300 "pilots" participated. I build a custom "server" based on the then latest I7 with a watercooling kit and overclocked it to 4,5GHz (IL2 is old and can only use on CPU), upgraded my internet connection to 10Mb up and for the first time in IL2 campaign history we could fly 45v45 humans, with 2 missions a week, it was a fulltime job. Off course it proved impossible to please everyone. Endless discussions about play balance, the rules (which they all agreed too before the campaign), the planes, the ground units, etc... turned that year into a nightmare. Well, after that I was done with IL2. If things can get a bit rough on these forums rest assured, it's pinots in comparison

BTW, this forum is a place of Zen in comparison to when I left.

My main purpose of doing this AAR is (besides that it's fun) is to get help with the new rules and keep note of the changes. Perhaps it will be helpful for other players out there as well.

Feel free to comment, make jokes and give advice or just lurk.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/26/2017 1:15:03 PM

Telemecus

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That definitely looks like an activation of Hungary and Rumania home forces to me. I have never experienced one at this time frame so I am going by my understanding of the rules.

When you say frozen do you mean they display movement points greater than zero and cannot be moved. Or the movement points still display zero? If the former I would have said because your German forces have not approached Rumania and the other freezing rules still applies. But on turn 3 that should no longer apply. I am guessing the in shot HQ is of VIIIHn, do you have a shot of any of the long time frozen home forces?

Possibly it is a sequence of play issue and your allies home forces will be unfrozen turn 4? Did the town switch to Soviet control during the Soviet action phase of turn 2?

Hungary also expanded its borders in the late 30s/early 40s with the partitions of its neighbours - so possibly they are not considering that town as Hungarian? Do not know the history of that town and it would be another one of those undocumented features.

Having all three Hungarian armies early will certainly make a difference. And I think it is too early for a Hungarian/Rumanian surrender to be even possible?

Glad to see someone else who remembers the days of wargames on cardboard. Did you ever have to use tweezers to pick up the little counters? That was hardcore for the time.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/26/2017 2:18:56 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/26/2017 1:38:57 PM

glvaca

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Hmm, good comments. Can't check as the turn is with Hortlund. Should have done so.

Tweezers! Absolutely required equipment! and the mess you make when dropping a stack

Its been years since I played boardgames. I still have SE from GRD and many other games of the series. Used to play SE through Jet. Good times.
Vassal is a great tool for boardgamers but if the system is very interactive like OCs: Case Blue it requires both to be online and that proves difficult.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/26/2017 1:46:30 PM

Telemecus

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Let us know if it activates in turn 4!

I used to play the board games from Avalon Hill that recreated the whole second world war. Problem was they took weeks - where could you leave the game undisturbed for that period? I also used to play some of the wargames published by Sandhurst college - so could say I played the very things used to train our soldiers.

And fog of war - that used to mean turn the counters upside down or a number which you noted on a piece of paper what was there, or it was there just to amuse the players that the designers even thought it was possible.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/26/2017 3:02:03 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

That definitely looks like an activation of Hungary and Rumania home forces to me. I have never experienced one at this time frame so I am going by my understanding of the rules.

When you say frozen do you mean they display movement points greater than zero and cannot be moved. Or the movement points still display zero? If the former I would have said because your German forces have not approached Rumania and the other freezing rules still applies. But on turn 3 that should no longer apply. I am guessing the in shot HQ is of VIIIHn, do you have a shot of any of the long time frozen home forces?

Possibly it is a sequence of play issue and your allies home forces will be unfrozen turn 4? Did the town switch to Soviet control during the Soviet action phase of turn 2?

Hungary also expanded its borders in the late 30s/early 40s with the partitions of its neighbours - so possibly they are not considering that town as Hungarian? Do not know the history of that town and it would be another one of those undocumented features.

Having all three Hungarian armies early will certainly make a difference. And I think it is too early for a Hungarian/Rumanian surrender to be even possible?

Glad to see someone else who remembers the days of wargames on cardboard. Did you ever have to use tweezers to pick up the little counters? That was hardcore for the time.

The units wont unfreeze. Certain CG's that hungarian SEC X activates early. Don't remember which CG it is ;) Basically the Russians are just ruining the rail line in this part of the map. I basically ignore the Russian units which will start to auto surrender turn 7+ (unless they are getting air drops which will take longer) I just defend key areas and let them walk themselves to death.

I'm an old cardboard wargame person too. Old Europa Fire in the East/Scorched Earth & Longest Day (Avalon Hill). Started playing 1976/1977 time frame.

_____________________________

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/26/2017 3:03:14 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

That definitely looks like an activation of Hungary and Rumania home forces to me. I have never experienced one at this time frame so I am going by my understanding of the rules.

When you say frozen do you mean they display movement points greater than zero and cannot be moved. Or the movement points still display zero? If the former I would have said because your German forces have not approached Rumania and the other freezing rules still applies. But on turn 3 that should no longer apply. I am guessing the in shot HQ is of VIIIHn, do you have a shot of any of the long time frozen home forces?

Possibly it is a sequence of play issue and your allies home forces will be unfrozen turn 4? Did the town switch to Soviet control during the Soviet action phase of turn 2?

Hungary also expanded its borders in the late 30s/early 40s with the partitions of its neighbours - so possibly they are not considering that town as Hungarian? Do not know the history of that town and it would be another one of those undocumented features.

Having all three Hungarian armies early will certainly make a difference. And I think it is too early for a Hungarian/Rumanian surrender to be even possible?

Glad to see someone else who remembers the days of wargames on cardboard. Did you ever have to use tweezers to pick up the little counters? That was hardcore for the time.

The units wont unfreeze. Certain CG's that hungarian SEC X activates early. Don't remember which CG it is ;) Basically the Russians are just ruining the rail line in this part of the map. I basically ignore the Russian units which will start to auto surrender turn 7+ (unless they are getting air drops which will take longer) I just defend key areas and let them walk themselves to death.

I'm an old cardboard wargame person too. Old Europa Fire in the East/Scorched Earth & Longest Day (Avalon Hill). Started playing 1976/1977 time frame.

At least the last patch before this one they didn't unfreeze on me when I had a couple of different games of Soviets invading Hungary ;)

_____________________________

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/26/2017 3:20:15 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
At least the last patch before this one they didn't unfreeze on me when I had a couple of different games of Soviets invading Hungary ;)

I read one person who got an allies home forces activation not because the Soviets wanted to invade but because they were maneuvered into it by retreats and end of turn changes of control. It was considered a cheat or "gamey" and I thought a later version had designed that possibility out. So it must be possible somehow in that summer 1941. The only question is what is the trigger if first reading of the manual does not give it? Without knowing what are the limits there is always an uncomfortable uncertainty at the end of every turn.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/26/2017 4:45:23 PM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Let us know if it activates in turn 4!

I used to play the board games from Avalon Hill that recreated the whole second world war. Problem was they took weeks - where could you leave the game undisturbed for that period? I also used to play some of the wargames published by Sandhurst college - so could say I played the very things used to train our soldiers.

And fog of war - that used to mean turn the counters upside down or a number which you noted on a piece of paper what was there, or it was there just to amuse the players that the designers even thought it was possible.

Will do, but from the other posts I'm not holding my breath. Anyway, it's more of an annoyance than a real threat.

It's been a while, but if memory serves, I started playing SE when I was 25 (45 now). We played in a friends house who had a huge space and a custom made wooden table space that could easily fit the maps, covered with plastic a couple of mm thick. So we could leave the game and play for months.
When I built my own house, I made damn sure I have the space to do the same but there aren't that many boardgamers left... And with the Jet engine you could play it from your computer with a much faster turn-around.
OCS:Case Blue we played for over a year in a Belgian Wargamer's club: http://www.tsoa.be/crisis_clubs.html where we could leave the game and play on Friday evenings. It's been years since I've been there but they do organize events and invite other abroad clubs but mostly figurines.

I did host several Napoleonic 15mm battles at my neighbours cellar which is huge 8mx12m or something in that order. Ah, those were fun times. Figurines and boardgames have that social interaction that I miss from pbem's. I guess you can't have it all.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/26/2017 5:02:23 PM

glvaca

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@HardLuckYetAgain: thanks for the insights. I'll note this down as one more change not in the rule book.

For the moment I have: (1.10)
1. Reduced movement costs on T1 as GHC moving into enemy territory.
2. Infantry pays 2 mvpts to flip a hex from 81+ morale up.
3. Mech/Panzer pay 2 mvpts to flip a hex from 86+ morale.
4. HQ Build-ups can now be done from 20hexes as the crow flies from a rail head. This is huge!
5. Bombers can no longer drop fuel, only supplies/ammo.
6. Mech/Panzers gain morale quickly in '41 over 85 morale.
7. Infantry gains morale quickly up to 80 MR, than it's pure luck. If anyone has any idea what you can do to increase your chances of getting a MR increase please share.
8. AP spenditure has changed a lot. Many things are now free. Haven't been able to fully map this but:
8.1: Assigning divisions from an Army to a Corps of that army is free.
8.2: Assigning SU's to divisions is free.
8.3: Attaching Corps to another Army is less costly (don't know by how much).
8.4: Others?
9. Rules are not correct WRT Axis allies activation.

All feedback welcome!

< Message edited by glvaca -- 5/26/2017 5:03:10 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/26/2017 5:14:41 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
8.2: Assigning SU's to divisions is free.

But unassigning them costs - that one caught me out as I remember it the old way.

Better to say it does cost - but payment is deferred.

You really should look through the patch notes - they have many of these and more changes although some features remain undocumented.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/26/2017 5:23:08 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/28/2017 1:38:44 PM

Telemecus

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Did a test of a game playing myself doing nothing but invading Hungary taking 1 town a turn. Nothing happened when I took Munkacs and Ungvar with in supply troops. However two turns after I also took Huszt Hungarian home forces finally activated. Just reading up on the history, the first two towns were taken from Czechoslovakia in the 30s. The third was as well but has a history of being in Rumania too.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/28/2017 1:44:42 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/28/2017 3:47:24 PM

glvaca

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Thx! Much appreciated!

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 5/28/2017 4:45:42 PM

M60A3TTS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
7. Infantry gains morale quickly up to 80 MR, than it's pure luck. If anyone has any idea what you can do to increase your chances of getting a MR increase please share.

Pelton suggested von Kluge w/morale 9 running OKH and keeping him close to your army and corps commander of the divisions you're targeting. The corps and army leaders should also have high morale values of 8-9. That will increase the chance of getting the die roll you need.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 10:20:06 AM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
7. Infantry gains morale quickly up to 80 MR, than it's pure luck. If anyone has any idea what you can do to increase your chances of getting a MR increase please share.

Pelton suggested von Kluge w/morale 9 running OKH and keeping him close to your army and corps commander of the divisions you're targeting. The corps and army leaders should also have high morale values of 8-9. That will increase the chance of getting the die roll you need.

Hey M60, long time. It makes sense. Thx!

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 10:27:39 AM

glvaca

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T1 NORTH

I sort of change my normal opening and don't take the direct route to Riga. It seems to work better as I get a decent haul of routed/pushed back units which otherwise route out of the Daugava.
Riga falls to a hasty by 2 Pz Divs and the NKVD unit displaces into the pocket

Also a new twist is crossing the Daugava SE of Riga which turns out to be better to allow your infantry to follow-up than through Riga.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 10:36:50 AM

glvaca

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T1 CENTRE

Nothing special, pretty standard opening. The only difference with my "normal" opening is that I also ZOC Daugavpils in an attempt to make it more difficult to get rallied units out.
I also don't rout out the defenders of BL and even the tank division there plays along nicely and retreats SE.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 10:53:57 AM

glvaca

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TURN1 SOUTH1

The South is always the most tricky opening and it shows I'm a bit rusty. Then again, I normally don't bother with the Kovel pocket as it is in the way of my normal RR conversion line. But, with FBD5 inexplicably missing I need to improvise. I'm also a little surprised that I can't enter Hungary to rail an FBD in. How did 11th Army get to Rumania in the first place?
With all due respect for Silly, I find the extended Lvov opening too extreme and simply not realistic. So I content myself with a normal Lvov pocket. I borrow 46th Pz Corps from 2nd PG but I guess that's pretty standard too. I know the pocket won't hold but I transfer the Corps HQ to Rumania where I'll be in excellent supply. This will be my new main RR.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 11:01:47 AM

glvaca

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TURN1 SOUTH2

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 11:05:47 AM

glvaca

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AIR LOSSES

Nothing near the 5K reported by some but still decent I suppose.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 11:08:05 AM

glvaca

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LOSSES

Finally, losses.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 11:26:26 AM

glvaca

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T1 thoughts

I spend way more time on turns that I used too. And make some stupid mistakes along the way. For instance using the G key instead of the B key costs me about 10 precious AP's

As to my overall plan, I have one but can't share that much

What I can say is that I'm going for the jackpot. In 1941, the German player has to be ambitious. Besides, focussing on 1 or 2 objectives will allow the Soviet player to do the same. You must apply pressure everywhere in order to force the Russian player to spread out his forces or prioritize
what he's going to defend. I don't have a fixed time table but intend to dictate the pace of operations and grab any chance to pocket as many units as I can. Additionally, with RR costs increased, it will be much harder for the Soviet player to execute a Sir Robin unless he's prepared to
sacrifice a lot of industry. Which, if the recent AAR's are a good reference, will have a serious impact later in the game.

As to the combat engine it feels right although I still have that feeling that Armor is seriously underrated as an offensive weapon. On turn 4 I had a held result against a riffle division (no forts) in light woods with a deliberate attack (HQ in range) by 1st Panzer Div.

But I'm not complaining, I'm having fun!

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 12:44:03 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
But, with FBD5 inexplicably missing I need to improvise. I'm also a little surprised that I can't enter Hungary to rail an FBD in. How did 11th Army get to Rumania in the first place?

Those of us with fond memories of FBD5 still mourn its loss at the beginning.

It is on the arrivals list - it will turn up when you do not need it so much anymore!

Germany did have prewar agreements about using rail in Hungary. But I understand it was a sharing agreement with normal peacetime traffic - and as Germany did not tell Hungary early about the invasion it took time to gear up. So I am guessing they are reflecting that. Although I think we should still be allowed to go the long way around Hungary if we chose.

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
As to the combat engine it feels right although I still have that feeling that Armor is seriously underrated as an offensive weapon. On turn 4 I had a held result against a riffle division (no forts) in light woods with a deliberate attack (HQ in range) by 1st Panzer Div.

I think this was deliberate change. Trying to stop panzerball and encourage panzers to go around Soviet units as was the case historically. Too often I have seen panzer divisions as the main attacker on cities, forts, taking Leningrad etc and that was never the case.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/5/2017 12:54:20 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 1:07:49 PM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
But, with FBD5 inexplicably missing I need to improvise. I'm also a little surprised that I can't enter Hungary to rail an FBD in. How did 11th Army get to Rumania in the first place?

Those of us with fond memories of FBD5 still mourn its loss at the beginning.

It is on the arrivals list - it will turn up when you do not need it so much anymore!

Germany did have prewar agreements about using rail in Hungary. But I understand it was a sharing agreement with normal peacetime traffic - and as Germany did not tell Hungary early about the invasion it took time to gear up. So I am guessing they are reflecting that. Although I think we should still be allowed to go the long way around Hungary if we chose.

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
As to the combat engine it feels right although I still have that feeling that Armor is seriously underrated as an offensive weapon. On turn 4 I had a held result against a riffle division (no forts) in light woods with a deliberate attack (HQ in range) by 1st Panzer Div.

I think this was deliberate change. Trying to stop panzerball and encourage panzers to go around Soviet units as was the case historically. Too often I have seen panzer divisions as the main attacker on cities, forts, taking Leningrad etc and that was never the case.

1. Re: Hungary rail and FBD5, If I was thinking on how to limit the effect of certain changes that help the Germans, this would be an easy and effective way to limit certain other advantages.

If it works I'm all for.

2. I would agree (and for much I do) but in this case the unit was well rested, first combat, and a deliberate attack with very good support for SU's and LW. Freak rolls must be possible, war is not math (sorry VonKleist

and it forces concentration of power, ie. redundancy. IT's the only real combat result I even remember as odd so I'm a happy bunny

< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/5/2017 1:17:37 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 2:15:53 PM

EwaldvonKleist

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quote:

war is not math

Not?

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 2:25:56 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

quote:

war is not math

Not?

Maths is eternity

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 3:17:38 PM

bigbaba

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hortlund is a very good player. playing against him actually and we are in the last mud turns before the 4 winter turns and then the blizzard come. he lost so far only 3 million reds and is absolutely capable of getting a good blizzard offensive. you will have fun and a lot of gray heads because of him.:)

he may be able to open the central and Lvov pocket (like silly did in my game) but let's see his response.
good luck.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 8:40:11 PM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

quote:

war is not math

Not?

Hate break it to you: war is chaos

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 8:40:47 PM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

quote:

war is not math

Not?

Maths is eternity

That I can agree with

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/5/2017 8:45:42 PM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

hortlund is a very good player. playing against him actually and we are in the last mud turns before the 4 winter turns and then the blizzard come. he lost so far only 3 million reds and is absolutely capable of getting a good blizzard offensive. you will have fun and a lot of gray heads because of him.:)

he may be able to open the central and Lvov pocket (like silly did in my game) but let's see his response.
good luck.

I'm already grey, and my girl thinks its sexy so I'm not worried

I can tell he's very good. Just got my T5 and he's playing it very cool.

He did open the Lvov pocket and what's more, he immediately grasped it would be my main RR and did everything he could to delay me.
There was to much un-zoced terrain to break the centre. Anyway, more soon.

(in reply to bigbaba)

Post #: 30

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund)