RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund)

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/10/2017 10:15:18 PM

glvaca

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TURN2 NORTH

The Panzers have plenty of movement and I exploit over a broad front. He only leaves 1 division in a swamp hex which I zoc loc to interfere with the
infantry moving up. The Baltic is cleared. Von Manteins Corps gets an extra Motorized division from 3rd PzG.

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< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/11/2017 12:29:11 AM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/10/2017 10:32:15 PM

glvaca

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TURN2 CENTRE

The pocket holds and reduction begins. I basically leave low morale units in 2 Corps, one from 9th and one from 4th Army, to do the clean-up. Their morale raises quickly.
I cross the Berezina in 2 places against light resistance, secure my supply lines and prepare to wait for the infantry. In retrospect I should probably have kicked out that sec ant but it's identity didn't become clear until I had already deployed.
He leaves 2 infantry divisions &, curiously, Western Front in Minsk. Happy to bypass and isolate. The usual Para Bgde's in the swamps but I decline to attack them.
I'm surprised he's not contesting the Berezina more strongly. Even a few units well placed can seriously eat in Pz Mvpts.
I also could have crossed the Dnepr but decline, done that before and the supply situation is just to horrible.
A small satisfying detail, a tank division just one hex from Daugavpils routes back West

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< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/11/2017 8:11:33 AM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/10/2017 10:51:31 PM

glvaca

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TURN2 SOUTH

The BL pocket is cleared, the Kovel pocket almost.
As expected, the Lvov pocket is re-opened (next picture).
I content myself with exploiting East and herding some units into pocket, the 2 inf. Divs. in the Swamp have had multiple hasties and retreats so I feel confident it will hold. Curiously, he does not disband any forts of the Stalin line. It soaks up mvpts, but it's little more than a speed bump at high cost in ARMS.
Granted, a lack of AP's might have something to do with it. This is not meant as criticism just an observation.

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< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/10/2017 11:58:32 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/10/2017 11:01:32 PM

glvaca

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TURN2 SOUTH2
Here it get interesting. He re-opens the pocket right where I want to start my main RR with some pretty decent units. This requires a forceful re-action to clear the way for next turn. Luckily, the Pz Div is in excellent shape and combined with German & Rum. inf. I put up a solid wall.
He starts his nuisance raids into Hungary and I'm thinking oh yes, pls do and activate the whole lot but that turns out a mistake

For the rest nothing special.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/10/2017 11:05:04 PM

glvaca

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AIR losses

Suffice to say he's keeping his Air force in play...

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< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/10/2017 11:31:05 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/10/2017 11:07:27 PM

glvaca

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GROUND

Not sure if this what's considered "on-track" or "behind the curve".

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/10/2017 11:24:46 PM

glvaca

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TURN2 thoughts

The first 2 turns are still pretty familiar so are more or less programmed. I do need to work on the opening in the South to keep the Lvov pocket closed as I now need to spend much more infantry to keep it under control than I would like to.
In retrospect perhaps I should have made a drive SE towards Odessa to cut of what seems a sizable force but elect not to.

Question, what do others do with all these Rumanian airbases? there are so many that you would actually think they have an airforce the size of Germany

I've already disbanded 2 but unsure to disband more. Secondly, what will happen with all those SU when Army Group Anton disbands? Will they go to Rum High Command?

I've deliberately not taken screenies from starting positions. These first turns have been hashed to dead.
I'm also replacing soon to be departing air groups with 109E3's, no sense in letting them withdraw with the best fighters.

Besides re-assigning Divisions I've only replaced 2 Corps leaders:
I Corps => Model
II Corps => Hollidt

I also notice that dropping fuel is seriously reduced in efficiency.

Oh, and a nice change is the high amount of trucks that get captured. Me wants them

< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/10/2017 11:26:22 PM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/11/2017 3:11:43 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
Secondly, what will happen with all those SU when Army Group Anton disbands? Will they go to Rum High Command?

If you have IIRm Corps locked or it is not otherwise under command of AGAnt they will all flow up to RHC. If not perhaps one or two construction and the pioneer will go to IIRm Corps plus other types depending on your SU support levels, and the rest to RHC. If coming from a much older version as I did - do not fear! All SUs can be assigned down from RHC to 3rd and 4th Rm armies and below, and at no AP cost. Before having AGS and distance blocking the flow of allied SUs was a real pain. Perhaps one or two constructions might do some rail repair in Bessarabia from RHC. But I think you may need to think then about assigning them to a Rumanian field HQ and hanging it back close to rail lines so they mostly do do auto rail repair - if that is what you want. It is still a few turns before AGAnt disbands.

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
I also notice that dropping fuel is seriously reduced in efficiency.

Coming from an older version I noticed that too. But I also noticed the bringing an airbase close to the unit you are refueling seriously increases efficiency. I have had a few fuel drops with zero losses of fuel - unheard of in earlier versions. That said I think 1.11 is going to reverse this. There are several alternative uses for the Rumanian airbases - perhaps that is one (not sure if they improve LW fuel drops though?)

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
In retrospect perhaps I should have made a drive SE towards Odessa to cut of what seems a sizable force but elect not to.

Not sure if you played the older versions when the rail line just north of Rumania was blocked from turn 1 - on some version they moved Axis back from the border so that was no longer the case. So just cutting the lines at Proskurov and leaving the pocket open but without rail no longer works. In the team game being played with PH there was a plan to leave the Rumanian forces frozen for two turns and then the Axis to go first on turn three with the Soviets still in their start positions - it only did not work out because of a confusion on the manual description of the freezing requirements. And going for Odessa, if linking up with forces coming out through Kishiniev can mean a bigger pocket, very short supply lines to your advanced motorised units and little time to dig at Odessa. I think there is a lot to be said for it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
I'm also replacing soon to be departing air groups with 109E3's, no sense in letting them withdraw with the best fighters.

And departing bombers with Ju-86s? On this version their range is less than a fighter!
If you wait a few turns for one of the manual swaps, you can do it for just over 20 109E-3s, the others having gone in conversions, exports and replacements in your later withdrawing airgroups. So you can actually reduce the number of fighters being withdrawn net.

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
He leaves 2 infantry divisions &, curiously, Western Front in Minsk.

Based on our team game against Panzerjaeger Hortlund I think PH has a "thing" about getting Pavlov killed.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/11/2017 4:08:55 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/13/2017 8:54:56 PM

bigbaba

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i let most of the Romanian air bases in Romania and take only 2 with me with the fighters, transporters (?) and the tactical bombers. that saves few trucks and improves the overall supply situation.

btw: interesting location for rail repair in the south.

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Post #: 39

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 10:42:59 AM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
Secondly, what will happen with all those SU when Army Group Anton disbands? Will they go to Rum High Command?

If you have IIRm Corps locked or it is not otherwise under command of AGAnt they will all flow up to RHC. If not perhaps one or two construction and the pioneer will go to IIRm Corps plus other types depending on your SU support levels, and the rest to RHC. If coming from a much older version as I did - do not fear! All SUs can be assigned down from RHC to 3rd and 4th Rm armies and below, and at no AP cost. Before having AGS and distance blocking the flow of allied SUs was a real pain. Perhaps one or two constructions might do some rail repair in Bessarabia from RHC. But I think you may need to think then about assigning them to a Rumanian field HQ and hanging it back close to rail lines so they mostly do do auto rail repair - if that is what you want. It is still a few turns before AGAnt disbands.

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
I also notice that dropping fuel is seriously reduced in efficiency.

Coming from an older version I noticed that too. But I also noticed the bringing an airbase close to the unit you are refueling seriously increases efficiency. I have had a few fuel drops with zero losses of fuel - unheard of in earlier versions. That said I think 1.11 is going to reverse this. There are several alternative uses for the Rumanian airbases - perhaps that is one (not sure if they improve LW fuel drops though?)

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
In retrospect perhaps I should have made a drive SE towards Odessa to cut of what seems a sizable force but elect not to.

Not sure if you played the older versions when the rail line just north of Rumania was blocked from turn 1 - on some version they moved Axis back from the border so that was no longer the case. So just cutting the lines at Proskurov and leaving the pocket open but without rail no longer works. In the team game being played with PH there was a plan to leave the Rumanian forces frozen for two turns and then the Axis to go first on turn three with the Soviets still in their start positions - it only did not work out because of a confusion on the manual description of the freezing requirements. And going for Odessa, if linking up with forces coming out through Kishiniev can mean a bigger pocket, very short supply lines to your advanced motorised units and little time to dig at Odessa. I think there is a lot to be said for it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
I'm also replacing soon to be departing air groups with 109E3's, no sense in letting them withdraw with the best fighters.

And departing bombers with Ju-86s? On this version their range is less than a fighter!
If you wait a few turns for one of the manual swaps, you can do it for just over 20 109E-3s, the others having gone in conversions, exports and replacements in your later withdrawing airgroups. So you can actually reduce the number of fighters being withdrawn net.

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
He leaves 2 infantry divisions &, curiously, Western Front in Minsk.

Based on our team game against Panzerjaeger Hortlund I think PH has a "thing" about getting Pavlov killed.

Interesting idea's and feedback WRT the Rumanian airbases and the SU's.

He's not a fan of Pavlov is he

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Post #: 40

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 10:44:11 AM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

i let most of the Romanian air bases in Romania and take only 2 with me with the fighters, transporters (?) and the tactical bombers. that saves few trucks and improves the overall supply situation.

btw: interesting location for rail repair in the south.

I think I'll do the same.

RE RR, how so? What's your preferred RR?

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Post #: 41

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 12:13:41 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba
btw: interesting location for rail repair in the south.

RE RR, how so? What's your preferred RR?

I think many prefer to go through Ungheny as the most direct route to Stalino and the East fast.

By going through Novoselitsa in Bucovina you were perhaps thinking of going to Kiev and linking up with the North fast - safety ahead of coverage? Or you want a link sooner which does not go through Rumania - so Hungarian reinforcements do not have to walk and German arrivals get to the front quicker. I think also through Bucovina you can start repairing rail sooner - so you will actually have more hexes repaired.

At least that is my understanding. I prefer dashing East fast through Moldova. But I have seen your version before and it has its merits. Life was so much easier with FBD5 at the start though ... sigh

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/17/2017 12:14:53 PM >

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Post #: 42

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 2:02:02 PM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba
btw: interesting location for rail repair in the south.

RE RR, how so? What's your preferred RR?

I think many prefer to go through Ungheny as the most direct route to Stalino and the East fast.

By going through Novoselitsa in Bucovina you were perhaps thinking of going to Kiev and linking up with the North fast - safety ahead of coverage? Or you want a link sooner which does not go through Rumania - so Hungarian reinforcements do not have to walk and German arrivals get to the front quicker. I think also through Bucovina you can start repairing rail sooner - so you will actually have more hexes repaired.

At least that is my understanding. I prefer dashing East fast through Moldova. But I have seen your version before and it has its merits. Life was so much easier with FBD5 at the start though ... sigh

Here's the surprise. I have 2 FDB's in the South

At least for now.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 2:09:26 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
Here's the surprise. I have 2 FDB's in the South
At least for now.

Ahh very smart! Is the second one hidden in your screenshot hidden by another unit or do you mean a future turn? I guess two in south means you can do both East to Stalino and up to Kiev? Or will you make us wait in your AAR for us to find out?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/17/2017 2:10:54 PM >

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Post #: 44

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 2:11:33 PM

glvaca

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TURN3 NORTH

I bump up against some serious defences and I don't want the Panzers getting stuck without infantry support. Besides kicking out some ants, it becomes an infantry catch up turn.
Von Mansteins Corps gets a HQ build-up.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 2:23:59 PM

glvaca

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TURN3 CENTRE
The Bialystok pocket is seriously reduced. Infantry is starting catch up and I hug what seems to be a formidable line but without any depth. I leave the 7-1 Mot division rather exposed hoping he'll attack and so reduce his defensive strength.
ZOC lock Mogilev to prevent the industry from being railed out.
Minsk falls.
4th Army crosses the Berezina and I leave most of 2nd PzG stationary hoping for an opportunity.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 2:26:48 PM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
Here's the surprise. I have 2 FDB's in the South
At least for now.

Ahh very smart! Is the second one hidden in your screenshot hidden by another unit or do you mean a future turn? I guess two in south means you can do both East to Stalino and up to Kiev? Or will you make us wait in your AAR for us to find out?

It was hidden but your curiosity will be satisfied with the next pic

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 2:40:53 PM

glvaca

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TURN3 SOUTH

The reduction of the Lvov pocket starts in earnest but the going is tough. I still don't grasp the new rules with regards to activation of the frozen Allied units and let him wander freely.
The opened pocket just below the marches is now sealed and 1 div added to the pocket.
Kiev is Zoc locked, Kirovograd falls with all its industry. Will give a count of Arms/HI later.

As to RR, I intend to have one FBD go through Vinnitsa to Kiev, and the other through D-Town on to Stalino. However, this will depend on the other fronts, in particular how well I do in Leningrad and the drive for Moscow.
It begins to dawn on me that HQ-build-ups are almost a necessity versus previous versions. Or rather they are calculated into the engine and you're basically forced to use them to get where you need to be. So I start hoarding AP's.
Forgot to take a pick of the lower South, nothing spectacular though. Rumanians advance slowly.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 2:42:25 PM

glvaca

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GROUND

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 2:42:54 PM

glvaca

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AIR

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< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/17/2017 2:43:37 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 2:44:12 PM

glvaca

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OOB

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 2:52:49 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
As to RR, I intend to have one FBD go through Vinnitsa to Kiev, and the other through D-Town on to Stalino. However, this will depend on the other fronts, in particular how well I do in Leningrad and the drive for Moscow.

Curiosity satisfied!

So that means just two FBDs north/centre - from the screenshots it looks like one going through Minsk to join the one going through Kiev. The other one I cannot see. Will mean the North is not looped until auto rail repair gets there?

I'll certainly be interested to see if this is a good plan. There was a thread on these forums called something like "Coping with life without FBD5" - a suitably agony aunt-ish title. If this works you should add these on as an answer.

(in reply to glvaca)

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 3:02:57 PM

MarauderPL

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Unfortunately ZOC lock on cities no longer prevents the Soviets from evacing industry. But it ups the cost (20% more railroad points need to be spent). It is a realistic change, but makes german "industry win" much harder to pull off.

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 3:07:24 PM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
As to RR, I intend to have one FBD go through Vinnitsa to Kiev, and the other through D-Town on to Stalino. However, this will depend on the other fronts, in particular how well I do in Leningrad and the drive for Moscow.

Curiosity satisfied!

So that means just two FBDs north/centre - from the screenshots it looks like one going through Minsk to join the one going through Kiev. The other one I cannot see. Will mean the North is not looped until auto rail repair gets there?

I'll certainly be interested to see if this is a good plan. There was a thread on these forums called something like "Coping with life without FBD5" - a suitably agony aunt-ish title. If this works you should add these on as an answer.

We're on T6 now (with lots of action, sorry no spoilers) but I guess I can say this. Once Leningrad is cut-off you basically don't need the FDB there and can use Armies to fill the gaps. It does depend on how far you want to push East.
In the centre (with doubling up FBD's no longer possible), I go through Minsk => Smolensk and then it depends. If Leningrad goes I will normally split. The FBD from AGN going through VL => Rzhev => Moscow. The second Smolensk => Tula

I just upgraded to the latest beta and now there's a Rumanian FBD!

Anyway, we'll see how things play out, it's entirely possible this may not work.

< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/17/2017 3:13:51 PM >

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RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 3:08:00 PM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarauderPL

Unfortunately ZOC lock on cities no longer prevents the Soviets from evacing industry. But it ups the cost (20% more railroad points need to be spent). It is a realistic change, but makes german "industry win" much harder to pull off.

Crap, didn't know that! Thx.

(in reply to MarauderPL)

Post #: 55

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 3:10:44 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarauderPL

Unfortunately ZOC lock on cities no longer prevents the Soviets from evacing industry. But it ups the cost (20% more railroad points need to be spent). It is a realistic change, but makes german "industry win" much harder to pull off.

My impression is Soviet players normally do not pay the extra cost and prefer to lose the industry on the basis that they will lose some and would rather evacuate the cheapest. So effectively it is industry lost to the Soviets - but the Axis are just choosing which cities will have their industry lost rather than adding to the total. Or is that wrong?

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
I just upgraded to the latest beta and now there's a Rumanian FBD! Anyway, we'll see how things play out, it's entirely possible this may not work.

I think you only get the Rumanian "FBD" if you start the game in 1.11beta. If you started the game in a previous version you do not get the new units even if you upgrade the program. However I am only tentatively sure on that.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/17/2017 3:41:42 PM >

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Post #: 56

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/17/2017 3:58:30 PM

MarauderPL

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

My impression is Soviet players normally do not pay the extra cost and prefer to lose the industry on the basis that they will lose some and would rather evacuate the cheapest. So effectively it is industry lost to the Soviets - but the Axis are just choosing which cities will have their industry lost rather than adding to the total. Or is that wrong?

It depends on the situation, if you can approximate that you wont lose any industry next turn you may just evac the more expensive bunch. You may also decide on less unit railing this turn. Its an interesting choice to make, but a significant soviet buff, as it takes out one of the german victory conditions off the table.

(in reply to Telemecus)

Post #: 57

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/18/2017 10:34:26 PM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarauderPL

Unfortunately ZOC lock on cities no longer prevents the Soviets from evacing industry. But it ups the cost (20% more railroad points need to be spent). It is a realistic change, but makes german "industry win" much harder to pull off.

My impression is Soviet players normally do not pay the extra cost and prefer to lose the industry on the basis that they will lose some and would rather evacuate the cheapest. So effectively it is industry lost to the Soviets - but the Axis are just choosing which cities will have their industry lost rather than adding to the total. Or is that wrong?

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
I just upgraded to the latest beta and now there's a Rumanian FBD! Anyway, we'll see how things play out, it's entirely possible this may not work.

I think you only get the Rumanian "FBD" if you start the game in 1.11beta. If you started the game in a previous version you do not get the new units even if you upgrade the program. However I am only tentatively sure on that.

Will let you know when I get the turn back.

(in reply to Telemecus)

Post #: 58

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/18/2017 10:35:17 PM

glvaca

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Does anyone know where I can find the new rules for mild blizzard?

Can some kind soul point me to the patch level it was introduced?

Thx!

(in reply to glvaca)

Post #: 59

RE: Glvaca v Panzerjeager Hortlund (no Hortlund) - 6/25/2017 12:49:37 PM

glvaca

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Joined: 6/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarauderPL

Unfortunately ZOC lock on cities no longer prevents the Soviets from evacing industry. But it ups the cost (20% more railroad points need to be spent). It is a realistic change, but makes german "industry win" much harder to pull off.

My impression is Soviet players normally do not pay the extra cost and prefer to lose the industry on the basis that they will lose some and would rather evacuate the cheapest. So effectively it is industry lost to the Soviets - but the Axis are just choosing which cities will have their industry lost rather than adding to the total. Or is that wrong?

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
I just upgraded to the latest beta and now there's a Rumanian FBD! Anyway, we'll see how things play out, it's entirely possible this may not work.

I think you only get the Rumanian "FBD" if you start the game in 1.11beta. If you started the game in a previous version you do not get the new units even if you upgrade the program. However I am only tentatively sure on that.

Will let you know when I get the turn back.

No Rum FDB and 1st Cav is also unaffected.

(in reply to glvaca)

Post #: 60

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