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2 problems : Spain and retreats

 
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2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/15/2017 7:25:39 AM   
vonik

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 4/8/2011
Status: offline 		Concerning the spanish diplomacy the manual states that Germany can invest 4 chits and Italy 3 while UK can invest 3 and US 2 .
This is both historically consistent and logical because Franco owed to Germany and Italy and his sympathies were with Axis (spanish Blue Division sent to the East Front) .
However in the game Axis can make maximally 30 % (3x5 + 3x5) because only 3 chits are available to Germany instead of 4 .
What makes the matter worse is that the Allied can do 29 % (3x5 + 2x7) .
The US have indeed "only" 2 chits but for some strange reason their influence is larger than the one of other Majors what makes sense neither historically nor from the game play point of view in the Spanish case.
This has for effect that Spain can never join Axis after US entry in the war - the 1% "more" for Axis is for all practical purposes 0 .
The Axis advantage should be at least 10 % (in reality it was more) so that Germany should have 4 chits as specified in the manual and US 5 % per chit and not 7 % .
Then 35 - 25 = 10 . This still makes the Spain joining Axis quite improbable but at least it is not 0 .

The second problem is with retreats . In all PBEM retreats are enabled and this is indeed a welcome introduction of a random element .
However this can lead in some cases to totally unrealistic and heavily damaging consequences .
You can loose Murmansk and the convoy road because the unit there retreats while still in excellent shape. You can loose a vital defensive position because the unit retreats after the first hit .
In reality there sometimes was a "fight untill the last bullet" order .
It would be nice if there was an option to give to a unit a "no retreat" order in which case it would fight untill destruction .
This would avoid that low moral, low supply and low readiness ennemy units attack at 0:0 a vitally important spot (like Murmansk) and the defending unit just retreats delivering the supplied position to the ennemy .
Post #: 1
RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/15/2017 1:13:35 PM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


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Joined: 12/11/2001
Status: offline 		Hi
Regarding Spain, Axis have a lot of time since France is defeated until US entry into thw war to make Spain enter the war, I have tried it in a PBEM game and my opponent couldn´t stop it with the 3 chits available to UK. It is not difficult and not particularly accurate from an historical perspective. Anyway it should have been rather irrelevant, Spanish economy was in ruins after the Civil War.

Regarding retreats, I don´t really know the mechanics, but I imagine a unit doesn´t retreat unless it has "lost" the battle

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Post #: 2
RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/15/2017 1:22:17 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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< Message edited by KorutZelva -- 6/15/2017 1:24:02 PM >

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RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/15/2017 1:27:09 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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Status: offline 		I don't know, makes sense to me that Axis recruiting would strike out once the USA joins. Especially since by that time the Soviet Union is usually already in the war too.

I'm thinking inopportune withdrawals wasn't unheard off during the conflict.

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Post #: 4
RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/15/2017 2:42:22 PM   
Sugar

 

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Status: offline 		There are 3 ways to get Spain into the Axis: taking whole France, creating Vichy and conquering Algeria (could be countered by occupy Casablanca I guess) and diplomacy. Together with Italy the Brits can only delay that action. I guess these are enough opportunities, cause other than historical the spanish economy is strong, as well as their army.

Retreats will mostly occur while being attacked by units with the special demoralisation ability. They are meant to force the enemy to retreat. If you want to hold a position, why don`t you strengthen your position with more units? Also you can disable the retreat-option in the options-menue.

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RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/15/2017 4:27:54 PM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar


Retreats will mostly occur while being attacked by units with the special demoralisation ability. They are meant to force the enemy to retreat. If you want to hold a position, why don`t you strengthen your position with more units? Also you can disable the retreat-option in the options-menue.

Then is it morale what triggers retreat? I see in the editor there is a chance percentage editable, but is a given morale level what triggers the checking?

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Post #: 6
RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/15/2017 9:00:22 PM   
vonik

 

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Status: offline 		All of this doesn't deal with the problems .

Manual says Germany has 4 chits but in the game it has 3 . It should be 4 .
Whether the 15 % (30 - 15) are enough before US enters the war or not is irrelevant . Whether there are other means to get Spain into Axis is irrelevant . The point is about diplomacy .
Statistically that means 1 increase every 7-8 turns in average .
So some 50 - 70 turns to get to 100 % depending on luck . My proposal is 35 - 25 = 10 after the US entry in the war .

A unit retreating from a vital place even if it has enough strength to hold is a problem too . I suggest a command where a unit gets a "no retreat" order and everybody can use it as he sees fit .
Having such a command would be much more practical than having to edit some files manually .

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Post #: 7
RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/15/2017 9:14:31 PM   
crispy131313


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Status: offline 		I am pretty sure the Spanish chit limit was changed at some point, whether in BETA or after because Spain was joining too often and too easily.

Perhaps an ERRATA PDF will be released at some point, but balance changes should take precedence over the manual.


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RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/15/2017 11:03:13 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Status: offline 		Spanish entry is not reliant on Diplomacy alone. Franco was not going to join either side as his country was a mess after the civil war. Spain relied on imports from the Allies and Franco could not chance losing that by joining the Axis. He might have joined the Axis IF it was clear that Britain was not going to make it AND he had to join in order to keep Germany from invading Spain.

The USA had more influence than any other country, and this is reflected in their 7% Diplomacy.

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Post #: 9
RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/16/2017 2:46:50 AM   
IrishGuards


Posts: 542
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Status: offline 		France must invest in diplomacy early, whatever the updates have changed is balancing
allies must invest wisely, try to take the finns out of the war, use the diplomacy
allies can cover all german diplomacy events til Italy is in the game

spain was in a terrible state, yet massive OOB which conquers Gib np
Gib was a fortress, naval base, fleet base and yet a singapore mountain
and then on to portugal, send a force to alg tun, make sure DAK supported
even with a cheat box or such for no retreat on certain hexes
this is not just an eff issue but also a morale issue as well, the entrench level must apply here
yet the dual hits keep on coming eh'

great topic for startegy, germany kinda low in mpp T1
by allies DoW they control dip, which I think is an overmobilization and limits must be set'
and the difference in USA in %'s should also apply in a broad scope, as in each major powers ability
to influence each minor, at whatever level they are as a pro axis minor or allied influence also

dont really know the actual changes in the updates, but a huge factor of bringing spain in was also based
on egypt and london, when axis threatened, but when france split the spanish were allied bound
A scenario would be spanish civl war, by YohanTM pre WWII
IG




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Post #: 10
RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/16/2017 9:40:57 AM   
vonik

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

I am pretty sure the Spanish chit limit was changed at some point, whether in BETA or after because Spain was joining too often and too easily.

Perhaps an ERRATA PDF will be released at some point, but balance changes should take precedence over the manual.



If this is not a bug (what I assumed) then it went from "fairly low probability of Spain to join" to "zero probability of Spain to join" .
And that is unbalancing, not balancing .

In all games I did (both Allied and Axis) Spain never joined Axis .
As Axis I put 6 chits as soon as I could (around start 40) and the 15 % were not enough to get Spain before end 41 .
Perhaps the die was bad for me but the probability is high that 1.5 - 2 years are not enough . .
After US enters war, it is 0 anyway .
As Allied if I noticed that Axis was trying, I put 3 UK and 2 US (when available) and Axis never got Spain .

That's why I suggest that the Spain diplomacy be established as it is in the manual otherwise it is is useless .

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RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/16/2017 1:53:25 PM   
IrishGuards


Posts: 542
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Status: offline 		Its basically a ? of how many chits and who puts what where and when.
I have had spain join axis 4 or 5 times, its a killer for allies.
the underlying issue is the level of pro axis or allied a minor is to influence.
some historical basis is required but an eg is both UK and france should get 5% diplomacy towards spain.
and because of the allied intervention in winter war 5% towards finalnd is fine to.
but the spanish civil war can be a random event that precedes WWII maybe should happen 1st turn of game.

this would randomize the 12% start for spain, but
if the allies are able to put 5 chits into diplomacy by T2 germany is toast for even pro axis minors.
IG


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RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/17/2017 9:21:09 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

I am pretty sure the Spanish chit limit was changed at some point, whether in BETA or after because Spain was joining too often and too easily.

Perhaps an ERRATA PDF will be released at some point, but balance changes should take precedence over the manual.



You're right, Spain was entering the war via diplomacy far too easily.

I hadn't realized that I'd entered the exact number of chits into the Strategy Guides which is why they haven't been updated. I'll make a note to do this for a future update.

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RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/17/2017 12:09:24 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Status: offline 		Thought I'd post one further clarification here on retreats which is to say that they only occur if a unit has been fully de-entrenched, which is why Medium Bombers are indeed useful, and if the resulting strength of a unit "after" combat will be <= 5. After that the set percentage chance per location of the unit, i.e. if it is in the open, or on a resource etc., will determine the final retreat decision for that unit.

Essentially a unit would need to have been pretty beat up for it to retreat from let's say a city and even then there is only a 20% chance there, 15% chance from a Fortification/Fortress and 35% chance from a town. Capitals are excluded.

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RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/17/2017 1:02:46 PM   
vonik

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre


quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

I am pretty sure the Spanish chit limit was changed at some point, whether in BETA or after because Spain was joining too often and too easily.

Perhaps an ERRATA PDF will be released at some point, but balance changes should take precedence over the manual.



You're right, Spain was entering the war via diplomacy far too easily.

I hadn't realized that I'd entered the exact number of chits into the Strategy Guides which is why they haven't been updated. I'll make a note to do this for a future update.


This certainly could NOT be "far too easily" .
From 39 to august 40 was 5 % (4x5-3x5) . 5 % means one move every 20 turns in average . So basically it was 0 .
From August 40 to December 41 it was 20 % (7x5 - 3x5) . This means in average one move every 5-6 turns . With luck it will be enough with bad luck it will not . So this is called an average probability .
From December 41 to the end it was 6% (7x5 - 3x5 - 2x7) . This is again basically 0 and in the case that Spain did join, it was anyway too late to matter .
What the numbers are saying is that the global probability of Spain to join was average to low .

It became now zero because during those 3 periods the numbers became : 0->15%->1% .
My experience with over 20 PBEM shows that this is indeed globally 0 as long as the players react correctly when they notioe that Spain's alignement moved (and I certainly always reacted) .

If keeping Spain out of war was the intent and make Spanish diplomacy irrelevant then it was achieved .
However if the Axis should have a REASONABLE chance to win Spain over what I think should be the case , then AT LEAST the period December 41 to the end should be upgraded by allowing only 1 US chit on Spain .
This sets the probability at 8 % (one move every 12-1( turns) what still takes years and keeps the probability of Spain joing low in the early years .

As for the retreats, my point was not about the mechanics . It was about the cases where the mechanics produces a very impacting result .
For instance a unit never retreats from a capital independently of the mechanics what is goo .
But take f.ex Murmansk . This town is arguably almost as important for Russia as Moscow .
In all my Axis PBEMs I always sent a Finish unit (eventually with a bomber) to attack Murmansk .
The Finns are not supplied but it doesn't matter - if there is a garrison (strength 5) then it retreats in 1 or 2 attacks even if it takes 0 or 1 loss .
If it is a corps (what is rarely the case because the Russians have not enough MPPs to defend Moscow let alone find available corpses elsewhere) then 2 bomber hits are enough to obtain the same result .
Yet the unsupplied Finnish unit attacks at best 1:0, mostly 0:0 so that only a retreat can yield Murmansk .

Just an example (there are more) to show that it would be a good addition to the game to be able to give to a unit the order "no retreat" without being forced either to play with "no retreat" set up or to edit some files .
I see here only advantages and no inconvénients .




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Post #: 15
RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/18/2017 2:02:44 AM   
LiquidSky


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That's funny, I always put a stronger Russian unit up there..usually a corp...sometimes an army. Murmansk is important enough for the unit. I also usually attack the Finns on the initial turn they show up as you can isolate a quarter of their army and give them fits with an HQ and army at Hanko. So they are usually a bit to preoccupied

I usually see the Luftwaffe show up in Finland to save them....

EDIT: I find the best way to deal with the Axis attempting Spain diplomacy (coupled with taking out the French) is to put your chits in other countries..like Rumania, Hungary..or Turkey.
They can have spain if I can help the Russians with minors on their border.

< Message edited by LiquidSky -- 6/18/2017 2:04:48 AM >

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RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/18/2017 10:41:59 AM   
vonik

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


I find the best way to deal with the Axis attempting Spain diplomacy (coupled with taking out the French) is to put your chits in other countries..like Rumania, Hungary..or Turkey.
They can have spain if I can help the Russians with minors on their border.


I have no issue with Spain going Axis or not . I don't really care .
I have an issue with a game functionality whose result is ... Nothing .
In other words anybody putting money on Spanish diplomacy will achieve Nothing so why putting it in the game at all ?

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Post #: 17
RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/18/2017 11:03:32 AM   
xwormwood


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Status: offline 		If you don't invest into diplomacy, your opponent might very well do so. In this case Spain might join your opponents alliance.
So you invest diplo chits to prevent this, even though you don't have great chances to convince Spain to join your own alliance, at least not as long as your opponents decided to invest into diplomacy, too.

Spain never joined any alliance during WW2. Therefor this sound pretty historical to me.

On the other hand I could imagine a diplomacy system which offers more pictures, or minor or single time events even for small diplomatic changes or actions. Those would surely fight the impression that "nothing can be achieved".

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RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/19/2017 8:32:30 AM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


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Status: offline 		Ok, there are 2 different issues.
1. The probabilities of Spain joining Axis, which even if Vonik is right and they are very low, still there is an important part of Axis diplomacy, by making that move the Axis player is blocking other Allie's initiative,like Sweden or Saudi Arabia.
2. The impact of Spain joining Axis, which is out of all proportion and in line with what I said in another thread about minors on steroids.

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RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/19/2017 4:06:32 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Status: offline 		In my experience, when the Axis invest chits in Spain it's not necessarily the case that the Allies are immediately aware of this, or able to counter the Axis diplomacy with their own.

If the UK counters the Axis diplomacy, then it will have less MPPs for the defense of either the UK or Egypt. Whereas after the fall of France the Axis have more than enough to both invest in diplomacy and apply significant force to fighting the British. Allowing more chits, as we used to do, led to people saying that Spain was joining the Axis via diplomacy in every game, whereas it should be possible but not that common.

Historically Franco was very reluctant to enter the war. He reached a semi-belligerent status for a while, allowing Axis ships to refuel in Spanish ports, allowing the Germans to install devices to watch on Allied naval movements near Gibraltar, and sending the Blue Division to the Eastern Front.

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RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/19/2017 5:18:10 PM   
xwormwood


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Status: offline 		Blue Division was actually his way to stay out of the war while repaying a debt towards the Germans for their help during the Spanish Civil war (Legion Condor).

If minors would have a national morale as well, Spain would probably join the Axis with a rather low one. That would solve the problem quite nice.

Maybe Spain could leave the Axix once Gibraltar and Morocco & Algeria are under Axis control?
Another option: once spain reached 90%, the Axis player could get a couple of decision events to bring Spain into this alliance, just like the way Bill handled the Ottomans in SC WW1?
Up to a point where the UK gets DE to give Gibraltar & Malta toward Spain to keep the out of the war, or at least to slow the transit (just like Austria-Hungaria got a DE in SC WW1 to give away Trieste)?


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RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/19/2017 5:51:49 PM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


Posts: 825
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Status: offline 		Not only the Spanish economy was in ruins, the Spanish army was in no better condition.
In December 1940 Franco requested a preliminary study to the Spanish Army General HQ for an invasion of Portugal, the result showed that there was a complete lack of equipment and transport assets, even horses and mules, so that only one single division could be mobilized in one month. The Air Force was considered as incapable of provide any valuable support at all.
The Spanish army was a large garrison force with little operative capacity.

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Post #: 22
RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/19/2017 6:09:36 PM   
crispy131313


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iñaki Harrizabalagatar

Not only the Spanish economy was in ruins, the Spanish army was in no better condition.
In December 1940 Franco requested a preliminary study to the Spanish Army General HQ for an invasion of Portugal, the result showed that there was a complete lack of equipment and transport assets, even horses and mules, so that only one single division could be mobilized in one month. The Air Force was considered as incapable of provide any valuable support at all.
The Spanish army was a large garrison force with little operative capacity.


This is well reflected in their starting position as well, with only half strength units, poor weapons and no motorization it is a hefty cost of German MPP to get the Spanish Army up to fighting strength and can take months to spare the MPP if Germany is active on another front.

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Post #: 23
RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/19/2017 6:12:13 PM   
crispy131313


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xwormwood

Blue Division was actually his way to stay out of the war while repaying a debt towards the Germans for their help during the Spanish Civil war (Legion Condor).

If minors would have a national morale as well, Spain would probably join the Axis with a rather low one. That would solve the problem quite nice.

Maybe Spain could leave the Axix once Gibraltar and Morocco & Algeria are under Axis control?
Another option: once spain reached 90%, the Axis player could get a couple of decision events to bring Spain into this alliance, just like the way Bill handled the Ottomans in SC WW1?
Up to a point where the UK gets DE to give Gibraltar & Malta toward Spain to keep the out of the war, or at least to slow the transit (just like Austria-Hungaria got a DE in SC WW1 to give away Trieste)?



Acceptance of the Blue Division should reduce Spain's Axis leaning. The same should be said for Wolfram Imports.

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RE: 2 problems : Spain and retreats - 6/20/2017 9:04:25 AM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iñaki Harrizabalagatar

Not only the Spanish economy was in ruins, the Spanish army was in no better condition.
In December 1940 Franco requested a preliminary study to the Spanish Army General HQ for an invasion of Portugal, the result showed that there was a complete lack of equipment and transport assets, even horses and mules, so that only one single division could be mobilized in one month. The Air Force was considered as incapable of provide any valuable support at all.
The Spanish army was a large garrison force with little operative capacity.


This is well reflected in their starting position as well, with only half strength units, poor weapons and no motorization it is a hefty cost of German MPP to get the Spanish Army up to fighting strength and can take months to spare the MPP if Germany is active on another front.

Well, I rather differ, IMO their starting position should be no half strength corps, but full strength garrisons with no upgrade, and certainly no light armor unit and no Fighter unit.

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