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RE: Notes from a Small Island

 
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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/19/2019 6:26:06 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		It is a game. In real life, we would probably have to ship the individual torpedoes (from a limited production), the bullets for the big naval guns, the individual spare planes, and all other such things to the actual place where we want them, instead of just using a generic supply.

As far as using rail movement, hook 5 or more trailers, wrecked trucks that still have all usable tires, and other assorted vehicles to one usable truck then partially deflate the tires and drive on the rails . . .

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 3811
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/19/2019 6:40:48 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Ask Obvert if he would allow a re-run if someone accidentally entered Manchuria.

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Post #: 3812
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/19/2019 6:43:59 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Erik offered a do-over to Jeff (Lowpe), if I remember correctly. Lowpe, to my surprise, elected to forge ahead and deal with the consequences.

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 3813
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/19/2019 7:11:33 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Your email was exactly on point. You are being way more than fair. Up to your opponent as to letting the turn stand as is or accept , what is essentially, a do over because of bad choices. Most sporting of you.


Hear, hear!

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

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Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 3814
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/19/2019 7:13:53 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Reply from Erik not what I expected:

"This is not a known feature to me. I had never encountered this in a strategic move previously.

"Let me ask you something. Do you want an advantage from something that is broken in game?"

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 3815
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/19/2019 7:18:20 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		My further reply to Erik (this is gonna get us sideways and slow the game down unimaginably, darn it):

I sent the turn with the APDs stood down, so we’ll proceed from here.

Lots of things seem broken in the game: reaction is wonky; the way escorting fighters get chewed alive is nuts; etc. We faced this exact situation on Hokkaido some months back with the same results, though it only involved three or four hexes as opposed to whatever you’re dealing with now. So it’s wonky too but it is a known part of the game and is a drawback to relying to heavily on rail transit. Like many other features it may need careful thought and micromanagement to avoid getting smacked.

But let’s move on.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3816
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/19/2019 8:05:57 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Now Erik says I'm being condescending and doing all kinds of rascally things.

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Post #: 3817
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/19/2019 8:16:43 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline 		Not broken. It is just the way the game works. It works like this all the time.

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Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3818
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/19/2019 8:26:47 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		We are still beta testing. If they ever get it right to everybody's satisfaction, there will be so few people playing that it would not be worth it.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3819
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/20/2019 1:21:08 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		Well done on your offer. He probably should have known about this, but it's generous of you to do the do-over. I suggested to him that he change the movement destinations of the affected units to bases close to his current positions.

I hope you gentlemen settle this amicably.

Cheers,
CB

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Post #: 3820
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/20/2019 3:46:47 AM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

Where in the heavens would Japan have found all of that train availability (huge actually, we are talking moving an entire army on a less than a day notice, and where?


Well, it's important to remember that this is not a simulation of the historical Japanese economy. Erik's uber-air-force indicates that he has built Japanese industry way beyond the historical early 1945 situation. As I've mentioned before, the Allies' northern approach and the lackluster performance of the USN subs have left the Southern Resource Area open much longer than it was IRL. (In fact, if my assessment of the map is correct, it's pretty much still open.) If Erik has lots of airframes, isn't it possible there would be lots of rail stock as well?

< Message edited by Capt. Harlock -- 2/20/2019 3:50:06 AM >

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Post #: 3821
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/20/2019 2:32:33 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I think Erik is one pissed-off dude. He says I was trying to make him feel bad by sending the revised turn but asking him to think about whether a re-do was fair.

I haven't heard from him since I sent a brief email last night. I don't know what he's going to do. I simply want to move on but I don't know if he's going to make that possible now.

I didn't think a re-do was called for, but I was (and am) willing to do it. I don't think I would have asked for one or that most players would have. This is a regular feature of the game. I think many of us have been bitten by this, usually on a smaller scale. I don't know of anybody who's ever asked for a re-do.

It's hard to believe Erik has never encountered this, given his experience level, but he says he hasn't. He made a mistake (to my way of thinking) by crafting an elaborate plan that had a known risk that caught him. In effect, then, he made a mistake that bit him. That's okay too. This is a long, complicated game in which things turn on mistakes.

He says this is a "bug" and draws analogies to a knight that suddenly can only move as a bishop. But I don't think it's a bug. It's just the game.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 3822
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/20/2019 3:09:28 PM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline 		In any game between actual people, the "human factor" will come into play in some way. Though I am inclined to agree with you, Dan, I can well imagine the frustration Erik feels after years of investment in the game, to get tripped up (whether by accident or design) at the worst possible time. I just hope that the two of you can resume your great match, perhaps after a brief period to cool off. Good luck in your negotiations.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3823
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/20/2019 3:49:51 PM   
Bif1961


Posts: 2014
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Phenix City, Alabama
Status: offline 		Rarely do opponents in actually war to the death across the globe communicate. So this is a feature used by some and less by others, some use it as a feature of psychops or just friendly banter. He has shared his feelings on the topic and you have shared yours. He feels he is being harmed by something that he has never encountered before and that is illogical. You feel he probably encountered it before but may not have though much of it as it was probably on a much smaller scale and not critical to his entire defensive plan. So it appears it is a problem with scale, you think it is a minor problem not warranting a do over and should have been planned for and he feels it was something out of the blue he never encountered before so could never have planned for a wonkie strat move quirk in the game design. You offered to redo the turn it seems you don't understand why he would ask for one. Maybe a day or too reflecting on the impact on the other side is in order. I do hope the game continues after you have agreed to a compromise that will satisfies both parties.

(in reply to jwolf)
Post #: 3824
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/20/2019 3:57:41 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Erik sent a nice note this morning. We're fine. The game shall continue.

Thanks, gents, for your comments and soothing words.

(in reply to Bif1961)
Post #: 3825
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/20/2019 4:00:41 PM   
Bif1961


Posts: 2014
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Phenix City, Alabama
Status: offline 		Good news all around!

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3826
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/20/2019 8:53:46 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline 		FYI, Alfred posted this on Obverts AAR. Informational, not inflammatory, just thought it should be shared here for those that don't read both AAR:

"This is not really a bug as it flows from a central game design concept.

It is not an easy task to try to code a different implementation for this central design concept for several reasons. Firstly, it is difficult to tinker with the strategic movement code without crippling the AI's use of strategic movement. Secondly, and this also links up with the first difficulty, any code changes in this area have to be thoroughly tested to ensure that the dormant computer control zone is not reactivated to interfere with other human control mechanics.

The China Theatre is the most likely area to witness this issue due to the paucity of railways, in particular the lack of multiple lines servicing most bases, and the relatively (compared to other theatres) widely spread in built trails in the countryside.

Alfred
"

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Bif1961)
Post #: 3827
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/20/2019 9:32:39 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		It just may not have been cost effective to fix it with all of the testing that would have to be done when it is not happening that frequently. however, since it does happen, then players must plan for it and set the units to move from base to base, changing the destination possibly before it makes it to the intermediate base. More time consuming and clicks at a point when each turn takes a long time. At least we don't have to route individual trains and make sure that there is enough rolling stock and the engines to move the units, supplies, resources, and such at each base . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 3828
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/20/2019 11:14:42 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		The only issue here to me, and IMO would've been up to CR and obvert to hash out (as they did, although not revolving around this particular point), is that the units did not remain in strategic mode. They dropped out of it immediately.

If they'd remained in Strategic, obvert could've just re-set their destinations to something else along the railway with basically a day's wasted movement. This would've been reasonable, and indeed it could have been abstractly seen as realistic-ish.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 3829
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/22/2019 12:44:42 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		5/11/45

All the hullabaloo kinda derailed things, but back at it tonight:

TNNBT: D-Day at Tungchow, China, goes remarkably smoothly. No enemy interference at sea or in the air. The landings go smoothly and the Allies have a decided advantage. I think Tungchow falls tomorrow. Then the show can really get on the road, as a vast army will begin landing the day after.

This will be a meeting engagement rather than a romp. Eric is bringing in everything he can. I don't think he can really handle 15 divisions well supported unless he wins a victory in the air that allows him to also take control of the sea.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 3830
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/22/2019 1:24:44 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		Happy to see you guys are back at it. Apologies if I missed it, but what are the port and airfield levels (and max build levels) at Tungchow?

Cheers,
CB

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Post #: 3831
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/22/2019 1:39:19 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Tungchow is a 2(3) port and 1(6) airfield. A heckuva lot of engineers will come ashore day after tomorrow. I bet it'll be a level five airfield in a week.

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 3832
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/22/2019 1:44:27 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		Nice. That'll be a good anchor point. EDIT: I'm guessing the next two bases to the NW are also (6)-level airfields (apologies: at work at the moment).

Cheers,
CB

< Message edited by CaptBeefheart -- 2/22/2019 1:47:07 AM >

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Post #: 3833
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/22/2019 1:56:33 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		It is good that you are back at it. If he contests the air in China, the the Home Islands are open and he would probably rather defend against that.

If he does bring a lot of firepower to bear in the open in central China, then your 1E and 2E bombers should be able to stomp on his units. If you also stage strategic raids in the Home Islands, he probably won't be able to handle both. If you transfer the DS and fleet south, they could also rapidly bring in some of the Southeast Asian army up to help or to take other targets.

Does this operation open up strategic bombing targets in Manchuria and Korea? While you would not get the strategic points, I believe that you could damage/destroy some important industry in both locations. I know that Formosa will now be open for strategic bombing as well as naval bombardments.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 3834
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/22/2019 2:10:39 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, this op opens up all kinds of strat bombing opportunities in Asia and in the southern Home Islands. I'm strat bombing from Hokkaido every three or four days to keep him honest up there. To this point he's keeping a lot of fighters on patrol that way - this turn he has 500+ at Tokyo, 200+ at Ominato, plus lots of others.

Another objective was to allow air transfers of fighters and shorter-legged bombers between Burma and Hokkaido. Up to now, only the Superforts could make the leap between the two. Soon I can transfer hundreds of fighters in short order, which Erik has been able to do all along.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 3835
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/22/2019 11:29:50 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes, this op opens up all kinds of strat bombing opportunities in Asia and in the southern Home Islands. I'm strat bombing from Hokkaido every three or four days to keep him honest up there. To this point he's keeping a lot of fighters on patrol that way - this turn he has 500+ at Tokyo, 200+ at Ominato, plus lots of others.

Another objective was to allow air transfers of fighters and shorter-legged bombers between Burma and Hokkaido. Up to now, only the Superforts could make the leap between the two. Soon I can transfer hundreds of fighters in short order, which Erik has been able to do all along.



I'm very surprised you never targeted Harbin from your northern stronghold. While it wouldn't have netted any victory points it is the single biggest concentration of manufacturing outside of the HI. You could have wrecked a lot of aircraft production there.

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Hans


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Post #: 3836
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/22/2019 11:30:48 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Harbin was targeted early. I knocked out the Emily factory. That was the only aircraft factory there (for some reason).

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Post #: 3837
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/22/2019 11:34:05 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Just one aircraft factory at Harbin - it makes Emilys. I targeted it early and he rebuilt it. You can see the damage done to other items. Erik kept enough fighters over the base that it wasn't worth coming back to.




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Post #: 3838
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/22/2019 12:28:22 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Well, if he is keeping fighters there, even if for training and CAP purposes, then they aren't flying other places. Of course, when it opens up for 2E bombers, then it might be worth revisiting - after a very nice night attack on the airfield. Call it Operation We're Back!

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3839
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 2/22/2019 9:59:39 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Just one aircraft factory at Harbin - it makes Emilys. I targeted it early and he rebuilt it. You can see the damage done to other items. Erik kept enough fighters over the base that it wasn't worth coming back to.






I apologize for the bad advice predicated on the false assumption that installations are the same between our games.

I have been playing Ironman scenarios for a long time and had not realized until now that the Nips get increased installations to complement their increased forces.

This is what Harbin looks like in scenario 40:















Attachment (1)

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Post #: 3840
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