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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/16/2018 6:58:31 PM

Canoerebel

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That's an apt description of the Sikhalin Island and Kuriles campaigns!

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/17/2018 8:29:27 PM

Canoerebel

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11/22/44

Delayed Gratification: Soryu confirmed sunk. I thought it was a possibility since she made such a slow getaway from the Seige of Shikuka, but from where I sit it didn't seem like she'd been hit that hard in the battle.

The Siege of Shikuka cost the IJN CVs Unryu and Soryu with Katsuragi taking one hit. I think one CVL took heavy damage. CV Fuso was sunk and Yamashiro heavily damaged. But the number of DDs, CLs and SS sunk was probably the most important outcome of the battle.

On this same date, my Mom turned 15. At the time, I think she lived in Miami, where her parents had moved during the Great Depression to find work - paying jobs in Georgia were scarce but Miami was a young boomtown. Mom's 88 and doing pretty well.

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Post #: 1652

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/17/2018 9:15:59 PM

RangerJoe

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Confirmation of nice work. But I think that you are correct with the destruction of the CLs and DDs since they seem to do the bulk of the work.

The SS are like the Scouts at sea - hopefully silent, unseen but reporting on the enemy dispositions - then striking hard no matter the size of their target.

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Post #: 1653

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/17/2018 9:33:38 PM

Canoerebel

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I went back to the battle (Oct. 2) to check against my memory, which is often "vague and fuzzy."

Katsuragi wasn't damaged, but Akagi took two torps. Kasagi and Shokaku took single bomb hits that've probably been repaired. Akagi might be out for awhile yet.

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Post #: 1654

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/18/2018 3:28:28 PM

Canoerebel

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11/23/44

Uruppu Jima: Going back through this AAR yesterday to review the hits on Japanese carriers during the Siege of Shikuka reminded me how helpful the information can be. I took a detour, noticing how slowly the reduction of the enemy garrison at Ketoi Jima started. But when the garrison began to crack, the collapse was pretty swift.

With that in mind, I'm going to try to post regularly about the Siege of Uruppu Jima. I think it will be harder than Ketoi and will take longer, so I'm handling it differently.

Most days begin with a BB TF bombarding Uruppu (though today didn't). These bombardments have helped shut down the airfield and exact a small toll on supplies but have had negligible effect on the enemy garrison. This suggests that forts are high, augmented by the 3x terrain (compared to 2x at Ketoi), because the early bombardments on Ketoi were more effective using the same TFs with the same settings.

Weather permitting, each day includes large-scale bombing by the air force - most bombers target ground troops to almost no effect, similar to the ship bombardments. Some of the 2EB target the airfield, helping keep it closed and occasionally destroying a supply point or two.

Nearly every day, a small amphibious landing takes place - sometimes more than one, as today. The LCI(Gs) are having little effect, again reflecting the level of forts and the terrain. But these bombardments trigger automatic enemy counterbombardments that are always self-destructive to the Japanese. Today is a good example. See image below. Thus far, this has been by far the best means of dampening enemy AV a bit.

The 3x terrain makes Uruppi a real challenge, so the Allies haven't attacked yet. Two combat engineer units are schedule to withdraw in a week. I want to use them once in hopes of driving down forts a notch. Losses will likely be high and I am doubtful forts will be effected, but I'm going to try.

I have three divisions prepping for Uruppu, all in the 30s or low 40s. I'll consider bringing them in (probably one at a time) when they are at or above 50.

This is a complex and difficult "assignment," but really it's a mathematical equation. Right now, Erik can't really reinforce or resupply (I think) efficiently. If that continues, the math says the Allies will eventually achieve the results necessary to reduce the garrison and take the island. That might take a month or two.

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/18/2018 5:00:52 PM

HansBolter

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I see you have two combat engineer regiments.
I suggest you use them one at a time so one can rest while the other is attacking.

Recall that I recounted how I used three engineer units in rotation with divisions to reduce Tinian.

Setting up a rotation will greatly speed up the process of fort reduction.

However, I learned recently that having independent combat engineers present isn't a guarantee as I had no fort reductions in a recent attack on Hong Kong that achieved 1-2 odds. I had three American combat engineer battalions embedded with the attacking Chinese army. Was greatly disappointed. Not sure if it would have worked if the three battalions were regiments.

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Post #: 1656

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/18/2018 5:06:07 PM

Canoerebel

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I recall your previous recommendations, but there isn't time in this case. These two units withdraw in seven days. My units will need more than that to rest and recover following the first attack. Too, the real objective is to drop forts a notch, not to make any headway against the infantry. So I think a combined attack is better than a divided attack.

A big combat engineer unit is prepping and will arrive in about two weeks.

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/18/2018 6:59:33 PM

RangerJoe

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It doesn't look like he has much anti-tank capability other than what is embedded in his units. I personally haven't played this deep into a game but early on I have had good luck with pure armor against the Japanese. Maybe a combined armor and combat engineer attack the day before the units disappear would do something good for you.

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Post #: 1658

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/18/2018 7:29:12 PM

Canoerebel

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I might try that, Ranger Joe. I'm going to monitor the Japanese AV carefully for the next four or five days. If it's dropping steadily in increments of 25 to 50 points per day, I may decide not to order a general attack, instead trying a limited attack along the lines you mention. If AV isn't dropping, though, a general attack might push things a little. I'll make that decision in about five days.

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/18/2018 10:40:24 PM

inqistor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

However, I learned recently that having independent combat engineers present isn't a guarantee as I had no fort reductions in a recent attack on Hong Kong that achieved 1-2 odds. I had three American combat engineer battalions embedded with the attacking Chinese army. Was greatly disappointed. Not sure if it would have worked if the three battalions were regiments.

Are you sure, that those units contain actual Combat Engineers? I haven't noticed it on Allies side, but I have recently discovered, that some IJA Independent Engineers in Korea, have only normal Engineers in TOE. They have the same icon, as other Combat Engineer units, they have the same name (Independent Engineer Regiment), but somehow have only normal Engineers as squads.

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Post #: 1660

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/18/2018 10:43:33 PM

Canoerebel

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Allied combat engineer units include combat squads and have an assault value. Non-combat engineer units (like Seabees) don't have an AV.

The big US combat engineer units have an AV of something like 251!

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 1:29:20 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

However, I learned recently that having independent combat engineers present isn't a guarantee as I had no fort reductions in a recent attack on Hong Kong that achieved 1-2 odds. I had three American combat engineer battalions embedded with the attacking Chinese army. Was greatly disappointed. Not sure if it would have worked if the three battalions were regiments.

Are you sure, that those units contain actual Combat Engineers? I haven't noticed it on Allies side, but I have recently discovered, that some IJA Independent Engineers in Korea, have only normal Engineers in TOE. They have the same icon, as other Combat Engineer units, they have the same name (Independent Engineer Regiment), but somehow have only normal Engineers as squads.

It seems to me that the Combat Engineers don't do well at fort reduction if there is not enough firepower backing them up - i.e. pinning down the enemy. Instead the combat engineers get pinned down and can't get their demolition charges in place. I'm not saying that is modeled exactly in the combat algorithms but whatever abstraction was used seems to have a similar result when there is not enough infantry/tank power available.

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 2:57:41 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Allied combat engineer units include combat squads and have an assault value. Non-combat engineer units (like Seabees) don't have an AV.

The big US combat engineer units have an AV of something like 251!

And are actually rather fragile against lots of opposition - they don't have many other devices in the unit, so if they take a big hit in the combat (as they seem to want to do, reducing the forts and all) then the unit can be knocked out of action for months.

I actually ran out of combat engineers in one of my games because I had to rebuild 2 of them from virtual destruction.

But hey, even 30 Cbt Engis is pretty good sometimes.

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 3:45:19 AM

RangerJoe

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True but the two in question are going to leave so he won't have to worry about rebuilding them.

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Post #: 1664

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 6:37:09 AM

Canoerebel

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Loka is right, though I try no avoid having the squads destroyed. In the Ketoi reduction, my big combat engineer squad got chewed up early - almost entirely disabled in the first attack or two. I ended up pulling it off the island early and sending it to balmy Shikuka for R&R. It's still sitting there today, a month or more later, prepping for Uuruppu. It's squads are fully "abled" again, so it's ready to fight.

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 9:46:48 AM

HansBolter

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That they get chewed up is one of the reasons for having multiple on hand so they can rest without slowing operations too much.

In the Hong Kong assault the three engineer battalions were supplimented by 4500 AV of Chinese troops, but didn't drop the level 8 fort with a 1 to 2. A previous 1 to 2 did drop the fort from 9 to 8.

Seabees do have an assault value. Battalions have 12 IIRC and regimements have 36. Allows them to take unoccupied bases. Army engineer units have no assault value.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 7/19/2018 9:47:32 AM >

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 12:41:59 PM

Canoerebel

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More is better but prep time is the limiting factor.

Since the initial invasion of Sikhalin in June, I've had a handful of combat engineer units prepped in the Kuriles. Once Shikuka and Toyohara were taken, prep was switched to various Kuriles islands in order of perceived priority, with Paramushiro, Onnekotan, Ketoi and Uruppu being the primary targets, if I remember correctly. The Japanese siege on Shikuka then occupied the next four months, finally ending with the cataclysmic naval clashes in early September and early October. At that point, I greenlighted Ketoi because it seemed to have the weakest garrison. When it finished, winter had set in, so Parmushiro and Onnekotan were scrubbed and Uruppu was chosen. I had two small combat engineer units 100% prepped. They are scheduled for imminent withdrawal, which complicates things. The big combat engineer unit pulled out of Ketoi after getting battered is prepping at about 40% for Urupp and will come in soon.

All that to say this: More is better, but foreseeing need, allocating properly, adjusting on the fly, and prep time complicate things immeasurably beyond simply saying, "Bring more."

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 1:13:07 PM

RangerJoe

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Yes, more is better. Or as I learned in the Army "Why use a little hammer if you have a big one?"

Another question: Is your Naval Air bombing as well? If so, ground units, airbase and/or port strikes?

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Post #: 1668

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 1:46:58 PM

Canoerebel

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Naval air hasn't been employed against land targets and rarely if ever will be until the Allies have air supremacy.

Erik's airfields are numerous, large, most with huge numbers of good fighters. Carrier air is too precious and brittle to use against them (especially since most carrier bombers are trained to Naval skills but usually not Ground Bombing) and too important to protecting Death Star and various other important TFs, keeping them safe in the midst of all those airfields.

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Post #: 1669

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 1:50:27 PM

Canoerebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
...Seabees do have an assault value. Battalions have 12 IIRC and regimements have 36. Allows them to take unoccupied bases. Army engineer units have no assault value.

I don't think this is right. Seabees, regular naval engineer units, and regular army engineer units do not have offensive capabilities. They do have a modest defensive AV drawn from the "cooks and laborers." So they can defend against small enemy assault but are not capable of taking enemy bases or dot hexes on their own.

If I'm wrong, school me. I constantly forget things I used to know or get things wrong I think I know. Every game, I have to relearn that I can't withdraw ships from Pearl....and to my mortification just re-learned that Cold Zone effects set in on November 1 rather than December 1 <blush>.

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 2:00:52 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
...Seabees do have an assault value. Battalions have 12 IIRC and regimements have 36. Allows them to take unoccupied bases. Army engineer units have no assault value.

I don't think this is right. Seabees, regular naval engineer units, and regular army engineer units do not have offensive capabilities. They do have a modest defensive AV drawn from the "cooks and laborers." So they can defend against small enemy assault but are not capable of taking enemy bases or dot hexes on their own.

If I'm wrong, school me. I constantly forget things I used to know or get things wrong I think I know. Every game, I have to relearn that I can't withdraw ships from Pearl....and to my mortification just re-learned that Cold Zone effects set in on November 1 rather than December 1 <blush>.

It may depend on the mod. In stock Scenario 1 I have never seen a CB with an Assault Value, but the CPNAB units scattered around SOPAC at game start do have some infantry with them, IIRC. Similarly, Construction Regiments and EAB units do not have an AV.
It is also possible that TOE upgrades late war could add some infantry to some of the construction units.

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 2:23:05 PM

jwolf

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quote:

Cold Zone effects set in on November 1 rather than December 1

Amazingly, it's cold in the Arctic in November. Who would have thought?

Good luck as you continue the Kurile campaign. FWIW I think you already have enough firepower at Uruppu to begin chewing down his forts, attacking say once per week and then keeping the pressure on the enemy trough naval bombardments. It will be interesting for the spectators to see this playing out.

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Post #: 1672

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 2:24:03 PM

Canoerebel

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11/24/44

Uruppu: Naval bombardments consistently underperform compared to how they did against Ketoi Jima. The terrain modifier (3x vs. 2x) is likely the reason. The only other thing I can think of is the possibility that the CD unit opposing the Allied TFs is better quality or stronger than the one that was posted at Ketoi, thus impeding performance like AA can impede bomber performance.

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 2:52:51 PM

Canoerebel

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11/24/44

Uruppu: Little progress made today towards reducing this fortress. Even the Japanese auto-bombardment wasn't as self-destructive as usual.

Air force bombings during the day had little effect too.

Hopefully, the constant bombing is disrupting enemy units despite the 3x terrain and forts (it probably is, at least to an extent).

And hopefully enemy supply stockpiles aren't unlimited or robust.

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 6:35:19 PM

RangerJoe

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I think that the Garrison unit is just infantry and support with little or no artillery. Those two engineer units are probably the Korean laborer type with no combat value other than to take hits. Do you have any extra artillery to bring in?

Maybe have smaller bombardment task forces to do lots more bombardments. That might increase the fatigue and disruption and actually be more effective in reducing the combat capabilities. Also, some night bombing to interrupt their sleep as well.

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Post #: 1675

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 7:26:10 PM

Canoerebel

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Night bombing to keep the enemy awake sounds like a good idea. I'll give that a try.

Three more arty units are prepping, two in the Kuriles, one in the Aleutians. They'll be coming sooner or later.

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 8:57:51 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Maybe have smaller bombardment task forces to do lots more bombardments. That might increase the fatigue and disruption and actually be more effective in reducing the combat capabilities. Also, some night bombing to interrupt their sleep as well.

+1

I can't possibly give a large enough vote of support for this.

Players get discouraged easily because the visibly reported combat results are meager.

In reducing an occupied base it is the unseen, unreported combat results of morale suppression and disruption and fatigue increase (or at least prevention of fatigue and disruption reduction) that are most important and more than worth the effort for ongoing bombardment and bombing campaigns.

This also why I like to bombard with DD TFs in addition to the efforts by the bigger boys.
There is usually something to be gained by piling on.

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 10:16:48 PM

Canoerebel

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Right now, I'm cycling three good BB TFs - one bombarding each day. Occasionally, there's an open day in which I can use a DD TF to "fill the gap."

Overall, though, I've found that only one bombardment TF per day has a notable effect - the effects of any following bombardment TFs are dampened considerably. So as long as I have a BB TF bombarding each day, I'm unlikely to assign other TFs to double-up on a same day.

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Post #: 1678

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 7/19/2018 10:38:01 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Right now, I'm cycling three good BB TFs - one bombarding each day. Occasionally, there's an open day in which I can use a DD TF to "fill the gap."

Overall, though, I've found that only one bombardment TF per day has a notable effect - the effects of any following bombardment TFs are dampened considerably. So as long as I have a BB TF bombarding each day, I'm unlikely to assign other TFs to double-up on a same day.

The visible, reported effects are diminished considerably.

Only your opponent knows if the invisible, unreported effects are diminished.

Addressing the question of SeaBee's having an assault value I have to confess I play Babes based mods with full stacking limitsd and have long forgotten what a stock game looks like.

USN Construction Engineer squads have an assault value.

Regiments have an AV of 36.

This is what a SeaBee looks like in Babes: