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2x3+ 015 Soviet Moscow - 1/8/2020 11:26:26 AM   
Beria


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T015 Soviet Moscow

quote:

Soviet Air Commander
probably the last time I will need to air supply Moscow, Central commander can move the airbases as he wishes.

despite interception, I was able to put those troops at airhead supply
although with the manpower shortage of the troops, it wasn't hard to give then much ammo
staging air bases are great





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2x3+ 015 Soviet Tambov - 1/8/2020 1:29:35 PM   
Beria


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T015 Soviet Tambov

quote:

Soviet Centre Commander
Supreme Commander, despite your orders of the new defensive line, with the collapse of the Southern Front I regret to inform that Tambov is undefendable, and the southern Volga front is looking very vulnerable. Most likely will have to adjust the defensive line (red line on image).





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2x3+ 015 Soviet Voronezh Pocket - 1/8/2020 4:08:59 PM   
Beria


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T015 Soviet Voronezh Pocket

An easy escape for now from the Voronezh pocket




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RE: 2x3+ 015 Soviet Voronezh Pocket - 1/8/2020 4:11:24 PM   
Beria


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T015 Soviet Voronezh Pocket Southern Pincer

quote:

Soviet South Commander
when I said about needing the panzers to get low fuel? well, no fuel, no problem.
with the south pincer contained, I might have a shot at this!
I also position troops in a way to most inconvenience the Southern pincer.





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2x3+ 015 Soviet Mius Front - 1/8/2020 4:22:55 PM   
Beria


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T015 Soviet Mius Front

quote:

Soviet Centre Commander
Should we continue defending Rostov (and Voroshilovgrad)? Those troops wont last on their own and perhaps it would be better to have them move East and North at best speed to extend the southern Volga front. There is still time if we want to do this. If we wait they could become cut off entirely.


quote:

Soviet South Commander
I strongly disagree, Rostov has the Don river behind it, now that I have sufficient troops I can fortify it, I'm also defending Voroshilovgrad because of its Industry, 3 Armaments and 4 Heavy Industry! I'm not just going to hand that over to the Germans for free considering I have the river and much space from the nearest enemy unit. Rostov also has Immense Industry! 15 Armaments and 4 Heavy Industry, since it is a Light urban hex, It can be easily defended. it already has a level 2 fort, and 4 more turns I can get level 3. The reason I'm confident with the Strategy is because the Axis committed their mobile units to the Voronezh pocket, it will take 2 turns of redeployment to threaten Rostov. And I'm also counting on the mud! it will pretty much freeze my entire front (frankly I deserve a freaking break as well), why should I give up such an advantage for little risk? the Axis has only a couple of Infantry, some Romanian to attack against my forces in the south.



quote:

Soviet South Commander
mud in central Soviet zone! if it actually happens, I swear in the name of Lenin, I will read the Communist Manifesto!


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< Message edited by Beria -- 1/8/2020 4:23:48 PM >


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2x3+ 016 Weather - 1/8/2020 4:48:51 PM   
Telemecus


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T016 Weather
quote:

Soviet South Commander
mud in central Soviet zone! if it actually happens, I swear in the name of Lenin, I will read the Communist Manifesto!





Happy reading!

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2x3+ 016 Axis Protocol & Allocations - 1/9/2020 1:25:17 PM   
Telemecus


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For information only - Team Allocations for turn 16 attached.

To add to an air recon go at the start which ground commanders can do there is now also an Air Settings+Reserve go that can be done by anyone before ground commanders take their gos. This will always consist of three things
i) Doing some manual air group swaps and sometimes changing upgrade or replace settings. Manual swaps need to be done before any missions are undertaken with the airgroup, and settings need to be changed before it is sent to national reserve. (If you are sure it will not go to reserve or be used in movement or missions you could skip this)
ii) Send lots of aircraft to reserve. Again this cannot be done after an aircraft has moved or performed a mission (but could be skipped if you are really really sure it will not) I have made a note of some airgroups that should never be sent to reserve as they withdraw soon and we want to use them up before they go.
iii) Set all airgroups to night missions. (to turn them off from flying temporarily, in later version of the game with air group maximum ranges the equivalent would be switching their maximum range to 1 to not fly)

With the priority to get Army Group North to its new lines fast as the Finns come south North is now in charge of allocating rail cap for the next few turns. This continues the process of dis-organisation described earlier which is now leading to getting rid of any need for a Supreme Commander go at the start and substituting it for allocations made by the team jointly and by discussion - something only possible now because of the use of discord.

Headline for rail capacity is we are going to be very tight next turn and probably for a few turns. Of the 34,500 of rail capacity we have each turn in turn 16 we will need:-
2,900 approx for units already on rails from turn 15 (XXVII HQ and 7Flieger)
6,700 approx for arriving or unfrozen units (18 Rumanian division, French volunteer regiment, Onega Coastal Brigade, 108 Hn Security Brigade, VIRm HQ)
1,000 approx for 121 Hn Security Brigade (assuming rails 108 Hn Sec to replace it as garrison and 121 Hn Sec gets railed on to replace the next garrison down the line)
700 approx for 2/281Sec & 1/207 Sec (to rail them forward to garrisons, releasing those garrisons to replace other cities garrisoned by combat units)
This leaves 23,200 approx.

In the old system Supreme would have moved arriving and unfrozen units just 1 hex by rail and left them loaded at the start so we could be sure they were not left without rail cap later. And give a rail cap in allocations to each other commander. But moving over to the new system the Supreme does not necessarily have the first go. Nevertheless when any commander takes a go they may want to just load up on to rails all arriving and unfrozen units anyway just in case.

Another change in allocations is that responsibility for all garrisoning is switched to Supreme Command. Garrisons south of the Axis no move line have been the responsibility of South. North is now responsible for the garrison of Leningrad and its environs. So far garrisons north of the line other than the Leningrad area have been taken care of using German security and also the independent Croat infantry and now French volunteers regiments.

This means there are now have only five units left for garrisoning (including the two German security south of the line that need to move north). The Moscow area alone now needs seven units of garrisons. So this will mean Centre needs to garrison Moscow with at least two regiments of German combat units (and more until the security arrives) and North and Centre will need to garrison any other cities or urban areas they conquer.

One option suggested for the winter is that units prioritised for protection from weather effects can double up as garrisons. If we go with this we will then have plenty more units to garrison with, and many existing garrisons such as southern Axis allied units can go to the front. But then Supreme needs to take control of all garrisoning (North and South) using rail to facilitate this swap.

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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis Protocol & Allocations - 1/9/2020 1:29:03 PM   
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I would choose the Manifesto ahead of the Protocol any day!

< Message edited by Beria -- 1/9/2020 1:30:11 PM >


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2x3+ 016 Axis FBD in Moscow - 1/9/2020 1:32:41 PM   
Telemecus


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T016 Axis FBD arrives in Moscow

Turn 16 sees a historic moment for rail repair. Having repaired their way through the Baltics through Vitebsk and Smolensk the men finally arrive at Moscow. You can now get on a train there and ride all the way to Berlin! If it were not for a few inefficiencies on turn 1, the FBD by now would even have repaired through it and be on the other side. But as no game is perfect turn 16 seems like a good target for all rail repair to arrive in Moscow.


When the logisticians said an offensive could not be sustained to Moscow they were clearly wrong at least as far as WitE1 is concerned!

quote:

Soviet South Commander
To find out where the FBD is working just check the rail line with 1 damage, for example at Moscow with 4 rail hexes with 1 damage.


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2x3+ 016 Axis Rail Planning - 1/9/2020 1:40:48 PM   
Telemecus


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T016 Axis Rail Planning

A map showing where our rail repair will be up to the probable end of mud or more. It shows what our repaired rail will be for each turn - in brown for expected mud turns and white for expected snow turns. FBD3 is at the discretion of Centre and FBD1 of South, so guessed where they would go. It assumes the dominant weather for that time holds and we clear the route of enemy control before then if possible.


I have also counted the hexes to show where units could theoretically still get an HQBU (green line) in the last clear turn turn 17 (turn 16 rail repair plus 25 hexes). And also counted the hexes to where units will be isolated in the first mud turn 18 (turn 17 rail repair plus 100 motor MPs) - this one is difficult to do and so I usually mistakes so should be taken as approximate only.

Note: the above map shows HQBU in turn 17 - but we would probably want to do our last HQBUs in turn 16 a turn before last clear weather. And that is this turn.
Unless the HQBUs are to actually fuel up units to get them home for the winter.

The difference in the terrain between Gorky and south of the Oka shows. Even if we were to capture Gorky, we would have to abandon it in mud as isolated - indeed during mud turns all areas beyond where we could buildup in clear weather are likely to be isolated. By contrast there is still plenty of territory we could hold without being isolated in the mud south of the Oka.

Our enemy has noticed the importance of Gorky - and increased its defences commensurately. Bottom line is any intention to take Gorky has died and Voronezh has replaced it as our target. And to wintering units to have a "kick-ass" infantry and motorised in 1942.

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2x3+ 016+ Axis Winter Plan - 1/9/2020 5:23:02 PM   
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T016+ Axis Winter Plan

quote:

South Axis Commander
got ground to fall back, all the way to Moscow I would say. I'll try to take as much ground as I can for the same reason spare the army


quote:

Priorities for protecting units from weather effects

I Vehicle damage
Avoid moving on map motorised units in bad weather - ideally moved while the weather is still clear or else after mud. Armoured units should get priority as their AFVs are more valuable than the vehicles of motorised infantry. Offmap motorised units (e.g. SPGuns, SP AA etc.) ideally left in an HQ which is not moving. Alternatively use rail or sea transport instead. Airbases and HQs are also motorised units.

II Morale loss
Priority is to keep motorised for 1942 with the maximum hex movement per MP (needing 86 or more morale if motorised, 81 or more if infantry)

In order of priority the motorised units to protect morale levels are
i) Non-elite non-withdrawing units with morale now at 88 or over. If their morale ends up at 85 or below it is unlikely to get back again. At the moment these are
-North: 1,6,7, 8Pz, 3, 36 Mot
-Centre: 5, 18Pz, 10, 20, 29Mot
-South: 9, 13Pz
I have assumed those with 87 morale or below will go to 85 or below after replacements
ii) Elite non-withdrawing units. As they have a bonus to morale if they are withdrawn from the front soon enough they can still recover to a morale 86 or more.
-North: Totenkopf (NM+15)
-Centre: Gross Deutschland (NM+19/20)
-South: Wiking (NM+15)
iii) Other non-withdrawing units. Probably worth prioritising the highest morale/ToE ones and divisions over independent brigades within this group.
iv) Withdrawing units. As these go before the summer campaign we do not care where their morale gets to.
-Centre: Das Reich, 900 Lehr,10Pz
-South: LAH, Hungarian Mobile Brigades

Slovak Mobile Division and Rumanian Armoured Division: Although not a priority to withdraw, it also is not a priority for the front so should be protected at least to avoid vehicle loss. As well as the vehicles the Slovaks currently have 12 morale points ahead of its base morale meaning it needs one less MP per enemy hex traveled.

Italian cavalry will become a motorised unit at some point early in 1942.

It can also be useful to keep Panzer corps HQs with very morale at that level too to ensure their mobility to keep up with their units.

Although not needed for mobility some suggest keeping high morale or many/all SUs in an HQ in the European zone (e.g. in an RHG) - I am not sure if this is worthwhile?

Infantry units worth protecting are
-North:1,11,12,61,21,23,30,32,217
-Centre: 7 but not 78 which has a morale bonus
-South: 24

Units with morale 55 or lower get no morale loss - this includes many allied units.

Units sent to hexes with protection from weather effects can be
i) Reassigned to OKH to give front line HQs more command capacity
ii) Kept in "Panzer Hubs" at or near front as reserve activators or for emergencies/contingencies
iii) Kept on rails for rapid deployments or strategic reserve
iv) Used as garrison troops relieving summer garrison units for other duties

Alternatively combat victories will boost morale - but this is harder as you go above national morale and replacements of the loses will dilute the gain. These units may be needed to stabilise the front during the Soviet offensive or because opportunites justify it. A motorised unit with morale 86 or over can travel 25 enemy hexes in the summer but 16 if morale is 85 or below. And similarly a high morale infantry unit can travel 8 hexes as opposed to 5. Whatever ground or objectives are held in blizzard has to be set against what it could gain in the summer.





Included above is a rough guess at where we will probably start the winter (in red is centre's suggestion). The point was also made in this game there is little point in fortifying a hard line, we are probably better off just making the biggest buffer of territory in advance as possible.

quote:

Axis Supreme Commander
If I was Soviet I would accept Moscow is gone. I would probably put everything into getting Stalino back actually. Perhaps local things for say Ivanovo or Tambov but Stalino is the only place in range to get something worthwhile. And if they assume a 1942 for Baku - we still have to decide 1942 but it is a recurring plan for Axis - they might think pushing back the start line is the best prospect.


We will also need to redistribute mountain units to where we most want to hold ground - currently they are all in the south.

quote:

Axis South Commander
Dont take my mountain


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RE: 2x3+ 016+ Axis Winter Plan - 1/9/2020 5:28:22 PM   
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T016+ Axis Winter Plan continued

Players are even making spreadsheets of what goes where. In this case the top panel are the units they prioritise for wintering and the bottom panel which are prioritised for the front.




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2x3+ 016 Axis Centre Air Deployment Plan - 1/9/2020 6:27:40 PM   
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T016 Axis Centre Air Deployment Plan

The plan for deploying the airforce I prepared for ground commanders to show what I would do. It shows in a concrete example how to incorporate three cycles - morale cycling of airgroups in and out of National Reserve, Kabuki Dancing air groups forward, and the logistical rotation of airbases (valid up to v1.11.03) - see http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4610612 for an explanation.




quote:

TURN 16 Airbase Deployment Plan

1. VERY IMPORTANT - DO AIR SETTINGS+RESERVE GO FIRST: There needs to be one manual air swap and at least some aircraft sent to national reserve in turn 16. This has to be done first as cannot be done after moved. Plus sending some aircraft to national reserve makes more space in airbases which makes redeployment easier

MOVING BOMBER BASES FORWARD i.e. use 16LW as middle man to move bomber bases forward
2. Air Transfer the short range recon in your Luftwaffe bases on rail to forward army recon bases i.e. 6.H/12 (HS 126B-1) on 15LW and 6.H/21 on 12LW (they are short range recon plane we do not want in a rear area LW bomber base - this may already have transfered or sent to national reserve it in the first recon go of the turn)
3. Air Transfer all aircraft in 8LW to 16LW (same hex) and move 8LW (now empty) to the second rail repaired hex and air trasnfer all aircraft in 8LW back to 16LW. If there is some spare room in 8LW (less than 220 support in brackets say) air transfer in some other He,Do or JU88 (not 86) bombers to it.
4. Move Lft2 HQ to the second rail repaired hex (so that 16LW has room to stack under 15LW)
5. Air Transfer 15LW - Stab/JG27 (Bf 109E-7) to any forward fighter base (not 14LW)
6. Move 16LW under 15LW, and repeat 3. but for 15LW instead of 16LW (note Ju88D-1 also get air transfered with level bombers)
7. Move 16LW under 2LW (you may need to move 291 infantry first) and repeat 2 but for 2LW moving it to the first rail repaired hex and leave fighters, fighter bombers, tac/dive bombers and Ju86 on 16 LW (not air transfer to 2LW).
8. Repeat 7 but for 3LW

GETTING A WELL FUELLED/AMMOED BASE FORWARD i.e. one bomber base left spare on rails moved forward
9. Air Transfer the fighter in 12LW to any forward fighter base (not 14LW)
10. By now 12LW should have no more airgroups as they would have been taken in the spare room by 2LW,3LW,8LW and 15LW (level bombers), forward army recon base (short range recon) or forward fighter bases (fighters) - but will have lots of fuel and ammo for the aircraft that had been on it. Move 12LW towards the front where you need a well fueled airbase.
11. Air Transfer fighters, fighter bombers, tac/dive bombers and Ju86 on 16 LW to 12LW (16LW should be empty again for next turn)

GETTING AN EMPTY BASE BACK - note if you only push forward bases from rails you will run out of airbases with fuel and ammo!
12. Air Transfer the fighter airgroup on 14LW to 12LW or any airbase with spare room
13. Air transfer the recon aircraft on 14LW to any forward army recon base
14. 14LW is now empty, move back to rails (at end of turn airgroups will be assigned to it from national reserve)

POOLING NORTH AND CENTRE AIR FORCE
15. Reassign 2 and 3LW to FKVIII and FKII


Note: Now that North is moving south and distances from airbases on rail lines to front is large pooling all of north and centre airbases to FKVIII and and using it for both commands together is a good idea see ...
Short range bombers are probably more useful in the south now, any excuse to get stukas away from Centre.

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2x3+ 016 Axis 3rd Panzer Group Build Up - 1/9/2020 9:35:08 PM   
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T016 Axis 3rd Panzer Group Build Up

Yet Another disappointing build up - this turn for 2nd Panzer Division and the SS Latvian Motorised Brigade which were on an HQ buildup direct from 3rd Panzer Group HQ last turn. The Axis team all upgraded to the latest patch as stated by the rules, although we can see the Soviet Supreme Commander has still not upgraded from v1.11.00 - and they run the Axis logistics phase ...



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2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket - 1/9/2020 9:38:26 PM   
Telemecus


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T016 Axis Voronezh Pocket

The screenshot below comes from midway in the Axis turn


Note their use of a different map mod

quote:

If South can remove the two red circles and Centre then removes the blue one then Centre will move into the black circles or even risk lessening supply and do the blue circle too. Das reich can move to the blue circle, break into regis and move as needed

As Supreme Commander I am not allowed to touch the units in contact with the enemy - that is the prerogative of the other commanders. But I do spend a lot of time trying to make it as easy for them as possible. Normally that would mean trying to avoid this sort of cross-boundary co-ordination by moving the boundary up or down and giving both pincers in the link up to one commander to co-ordinate it on their own. Here however they were able to sort it out as a team. Some of this is down to the less structured team protocol we have been adopting. But also a lot of it is down to the use of discord for real-time co-ordination. This team game and the 8MP one had started before the use of discord was adopted and it is not for everyone and everything. But I do think rejection of use of discord use by the Soviet team as a whole is a big part of the reason for their much slower times to take a turn.

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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket - 1/9/2020 9:41:33 PM   
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T016 Axis Voro Pocket Paras

quote:

quote:

quote:

Axis Supreme Commander
Did I ever suggest we should use the Paras?


Axis Ground Commanders
All the time!


Axis Supreme Commander
Voronezh pocket - if there was ever a good place for using paras this would be it,
dropping some paras can be a good way of closing a pocket shut.
(and also a Soviet way of opening)




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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket - 1/9/2020 9:43:45 PM   
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T016 Axis Voro Pocket Paras

Here is later in the Axis action phase while still co-ordinating the resealing the Voronezh pocket at the boundary of Centre and South command




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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket - 1/9/2020 9:45:04 PM   
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T016 Axis Voro Pocket Paras

Now consider if the Soviet could drop a para unit where indicated by the red outline. Whether or not the unit got wiped out, the hex would still flip control. And the ground units would be left with simple movements to break the pocket.

Without the Soviet para there it would be impossible (I think) to flip the hex control overground by movement alone.


(Screenshot is from middle of Axis action phase)

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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket - 1/9/2020 9:46:55 PM   
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T016 Axis Voro Pocket Paras


(Screenshot is from middle of Axis action phase)

However Soviet paras could be prevented from flipping control of that hex simply by occupying that hex with a German unit where indicated. However that would mean that hex could now have its control flipped simply by winning a combat against the German unit there. There would be too many movement points to simply move to the hex, but far fewer movement points are needed simply to attack from an enemy ZOCed hex to an enemy in another enemy ZOCed hex. So putting a unit there "could" make it easier

Just a quirk - sometimes putting a unit somewhere makes it easier for the enemy to capture that hex!

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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket - 1/9/2020 9:49:12 PM   
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T016 Axis Voro Pocket

Here is the way the ground commanders decided to reclose the Voronezh pocket. Looks pretty formidable - but the Soviet South Commander has had a knack of breaking in all summer and keeping his men alive, barely. Doing so again would mean tieing up Axis troops into the mud period and beyond. So having the 7 Flieger Division whole, or broken down to regiments, there as well might make all the difference.


7 Flieger is at Bryansk with some transports so there is an option to use it either as garrison, as para landed brigades (e.g. close Voronezh pocket) or as ground infantry. They are 95 morale - so hard nutters - but without a lot of heavy equipment. They leave on xmas day - shame for them to leave having done nothing?

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2x3+ 016 Axis - 1/9/2020 9:51:51 PM   
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T016 Axis






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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis - 1/9/2020 9:52:41 PM   
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Will the Soviet team be able to break our final pocket of the summer at Voronezh yet again?

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2x3+ 016 Axis Yaroslavl - 1/9/2020 10:53:19 PM   
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T016 Axis Yaroslavl

By bluff if nothing else we have got all of Yaro apart from the last urban hex




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2x3+ 016 Axis Strategic Bombing - 1/9/2020 10:54:40 PM   
Telemecus


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T016 Axis Yaroslavl

quote:

Axis South Commander
Not getting damage on the yak 1 factories so that is game over.. :frowning:


-although six enemy fighter groups tied to the rear and its defence is still a victory




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RE: 2x3+ 016 Axis Voronezh Pocket - 1/10/2020 12:33:33 PM   
Telemecus


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T016 Axis Voronezh pocket continued


quote:

Axis Supreme Commander
At the moment we are only using part of the fighter force. Hopefully in a few turns we can get back to using all fighters on map and the short range dive bombers too. Basically where the panzers are now the Soviets have been dominant in their phase and ours past turn. So Yaroslavl dozens of Soviet bombers and fighters giving ground support - nothing from us. Same happened at the Voroneh pocket where we had a base only able to support one fighter group in range anyway. Really we need many fuelled up bases to stop them pounding our armoured columns. Or even better destroying dozens of their planes
I also assigned a lot of flak to the panzer corps or HQs near them. All finnish flak forward too - they seem to be bombing them too!


Abwehr finds a radical new intelligence method - it is called read our opponents AARs from which we discover the Soviet enemy air commander never bombs air bases! Which means we do not have to defend them with flak and use it everywhere else instead. Commanders are encouraged to move their airbases as close in to the front as they can!

quote:

quote:

Axis South Commander
Lowest morale bombers are found in center
lol
no ... there from reserve last turn


Axis Supreme Commander
because they were the ones reserved centre from turns before!!


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< Message edited by Telemecus -- 1/10/2020 12:34:28 PM >


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2x3+ 016 Colour me Bronze - 1/10/2020 12:48:14 PM   
Telemecus


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T016 Axis Colour me Bronze


It started with one player starting to recolour his motor units for Operation Bronze Charger...

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RE: 2x3+ 016 Colour me Beautiful - 1/10/2020 12:49:38 PM   
Telemecus


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T016 Axis Colour me Beautiful


But seems to have now spread to our South Commander too

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< Message edited by Telemecus -- 1/10/2020 12:50:04 PM >


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RE: 2x3+ 016 Colour me Bad - 1/10/2020 12:50:55 PM   
Telemecus


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T016 Axis Colour me Bad

quote:

Axis Ground Commander
What is the RGB code for Chartreuse?


Oh ffs!

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 1/10/2020 12:51:18 PM >


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RE: 2x3+ 016 Colour me Bad - 1/10/2020 5:57:11 PM   
Crackaces


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The conversation below shows the dynamic of team play.

We get attached to our pixels. Pure game theory, we discuss the most optimum play. Maybe spend AP's and swap infantry units to optimize the play with the discussion focused on calculated outcomes based on imperfect information (just like optimizing play in poker). . But there is a human element to team play. The game starts with units in the North, Center, and South. These "units" we invest time in building wins, morale and experience. To me, this is a game. There are rules, and objects that we manipulate with random probability to achieve some victory as specified by the rules of the game. Others take the experience in a more human form. Player one has 2 Panzer armies and player two has one -- Is that fair? vs is this optimum play?

The ability to manage all these forces as one sometimes determines the outcomes. When there is one decider -- the problem is easy. I might propose that the the complexity goes up exponentially with each decider (player).




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2x3+ 016 Soviet South - 1/10/2020 6:13:31 PM   
Beria


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T016 Soviet South Start of Turn

Now we get to see the damage in the Voronezh pocket




Can we break it?

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< Message edited by Beria -- 1/10/2020 6:15:36 PM >


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