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RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/15/2020 6:13:33 PM   
Beria


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/6/2017
Status: offline 		T029 Soviet North

Here we can see the Soviet Team discussing moving forces south - and deciding mid-blizzard that would be a waste

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Neogodhobo, Soviet Supreme Commander
Whats the situation north where all our best equipment is ?


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
The Shock army isnt making quick enough progress to do anthing but forcing a slow axis retreat. We're not going to surround any units up north.


Neogodhobo, Soviet Supreme Commander
Cancel operation crawling snake (or whatever was its name)
Haha, cant even remember the name of the operation -_-


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
1st Shock Army will withdraw and redeploy to the Tambov sector


Neogodhobo, Soviet Supreme Commander
when will 1st shock arrive and combat ready ?


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
Was just looking at that now
There is an issue. The railhead is minimum 10 hexes away for 1st Shock.'
It will be a month


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Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
I think 1st shock should stay where it is
it might help push the front line forwards from Yaroslavl


...
in the South, the units are quite weak, and we have lots of cav and infantry there already
...
the distance is quite wide, and the forest give good protection


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
That one is a low oddser
Sure, it looks scary, but in reality that one is very hard to accomplish
We should focus our attention on our very good chance to encicrcle an entire german army


Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
but its a danger the Germans can't ignore.
it can help push the front away from the city with out more casualties at the very least
...
Its good to pressure them along several points along the fronts so they cant just send all their reinforcements to Tambov


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
Yeah I suppose you are right. Its going to be a full month before the 1st Shock is combat ready in the south anyway.
Maybe better to let it stay where it is and focus on getting more easily available reinformcements to go tothe Tambov sector


Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
and we must take advantage of January!


Attachment (2)

< Message edited by Beria -- 4/15/2020 6:15:10 PM >

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Post #: 961
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/16/2020 4:06:40 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		Turn 30 Axis:

WITE is a very complicated game involving multiple playing pieces that have varying attributes and unlike chess -- randomness of the results. That makes WITE not only complicated but complex. The planning is not just for turn 30, but what do turns 31 - xxx look like? If I do 'x' what options do I have after those moves? What about my opponent? Both teams are caught in a whirlwind of dynamicism as the playing pieces move and apply their attributes toward a goal.

The Soviet plan above is interesting. The Soviet team recognizes a salient and have marshaled in forces to accomplish objectives. Unfortunately for the Soviet's -- the German's also have a plan and dynamics start to take a toll on the plan.

quote:



Crackaces
I am thinking to bring out the Bronze Armor guys to address this critical situation. With the right SU's I think I can rout some Cav units and stem the tide. It will mean losses. But right now I think we need to neutralize some of there chess pieces ..



The map below shows the results of one attack -- the Finn's revenge. A Cavalry unit is exposed without any real fort level. I loaded up an HQ with light and heavy flak, along with artillery SU's. One of the highly valued chess pieces is temporarily taken out of the equation for a turn at least ...







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Post #: 962
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/16/2020 4:15:42 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		NORTH Turn 30:

The reader can get the big picture by comparing the map below with the previous Soviet planning maps. The German's are fighting a flexible defensive battle giving up space to save blood and time. I can visualize at this point what our Summer offensive looks like, but for now we have to survive the winter blizzard. That means retreat but in a way that burns Soviet MP's. I do not think Yaro is a position would holding .. give up the salient now ..






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Post #: 963
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/16/2020 5:08:00 PM   
Beria


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/6/2017
Status: offline 		T30 Soviet North Rail Repair

Supply is becoming a real problem in the North. With hindsight putting 1st Shock Army as far away as possible from rails round the back of a lake on the other side of some swamps was not such a good idea! Now that we have connected up through the south of Lake Rybinsk things are better.




quote:

Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
Stavka sent some rail repair units north this turn.
we have no control over it, we kind of have to pray to be honest
one hex at a time
...
assigned to an army HQ will repair within 5 hexes but not work as well
honestly I prefer to keep it all on Stavka with maybe one or 2 at Front HQ
this way, it guaranties they will work every turn


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Post #: 964
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/16/2020 5:23:36 PM   
Beria


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/6/2017
Status: offline 		T30 Soviet North

And I think some Germans are definitely get into a tight spot near Ivanovo




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< Message edited by Beria -- 4/16/2020 5:25:44 PM >

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Post #: 965
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/16/2020 7:20:51 PM   
joelmar


Posts: 1023
Joined: 3/16/2019
Status: offline 		This kind of defensive operation takes steady nerves!

Interesting to see the Soviets have the same problems that the Germans usually have with supplies ;-)

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Post #: 966
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/16/2020 7:20:55 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		The Commander makes a decision. We bring out armor that was resting in nearby level 4 towns. A quick counterattack will stem the tide for a turn .. maybe two turns. The cost is in armor as there are die rolls for AFV's to become damaged. Then damaged AFV's are not as likely to be repaired. A change in strategy in that we shall give up some blood for time and space.






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< Message edited by Crackaces -- 4/16/2020 8:06:03 PM >

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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 967
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/16/2020 7:30:42 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		This game is Soviet +1 and mild winter. I have conducted blizzard counteroffensives with the harsh winter rules and have achieved success. It was the Northern Commander's decision to bring out the lions and smack the Soviet's in the nose. Maybe put a set back into the Soviet time tables. You can see by the balloon we achieved our objectives.

What is interesting in reading the AAR together is that the Soviet's and the German commanders each understand they are achieving goals each turn. The Soviet's are connecting a LOC they see as essential. The German North commander is buying time that they see most essential to the end goal -- 290 points at the end of Summer 1942 .,,,






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< Message edited by Crackaces -- 4/16/2020 8:07:40 PM >

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 968
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/16/2020 8:43:15 PM   
Beria


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/6/2017
Status: offline 		T31 Soviet North

quote:

quote:

Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander


About 12 divisions under pressure in the western Ivanono area
And one division temporarily encircled just north of Tambov
...
Totenkpf SS division is in that pressure area


Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
it's always nice to put great pressure on then!
there are too many panzer divisions in proximity (Moscow) for any large success, but it still brings a smile to my face


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Post #: 969
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/16/2020 9:01:56 PM   
Beria


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/6/2017
Status: offline 		T31 Soviet North continued

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Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
I've notice that you put all of 1st shock army on refit, but its a distance of 39 MP to a supply source.
and some of those cav corps are starting to lose too many cav squads, some are in the 150ish range.
next turn you should send then in the back for a bit a refit, those below cav squads of 200.
you don't have to pull back all the cav corps, just those that are severely depleted.
losing one or 2 turns of action is still worth it to bring then up to strength.


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
All of 1st Shock is cav corps and guards, almost : P


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
Man that army is a juggernaut
I wish we had 10 more of them!
: P


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
Yeah that would be nice
I bet they never saw this coming :p




They thought they were pulling back and would be safe!
Foolish huns


Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
nice, I was also surprised how despite the distance you still punch then hard
I'm suspicious that the huns haven't put up a strong defense in front of your 1st shock army....


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
Honestly, I think they're running around in the snow, confused
Its the feelxing I get haha


Mamluke, Soviet South Commander
just a look on the map, the Soviet intention is too obvious


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
I think they are just surprised by the punching power of our cav corps
And our glorious infantry soldier in general!


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Beria -- 4/16/2020 9:02:29 PM >

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Post #: 970
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/16/2020 9:03:19 PM   
Beria


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/6/2017
Status: offline 		Tambov 2 coming up!

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Post #: 971
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/16/2020 11:00:35 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		TURN 32 NORTH

I look at the map and send the following text in Discord to Telemecus -- our fearless leader ..

quote:


I think I can rout some units giving us one more turn just North and East of Moscow.
………

"In my sector I plan to rout some cav toward my east and then [turn toward] the North. It is going to be close but I think I can make a straighter line next turn."



We attack in the blizzard and achieve our immediate goals:






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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 972
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/16/2020 11:06:16 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		The map below shows the salient .. reduced somewhat but I am still very concerned that the flanks could fold ..

quote:


"I just looked at the situation. I will need to retreat more as I am getting pincered near Yaro .. My situation is right at the breaking point. I do need the Armor to prevent a disaster. I think I can rout some more Cav with the armor this turn and provide some relief, but things are right at the cusp.



You saw the posting above .. we counter-attack and at the same time we bring our infantry back .. the salient is flattened .. A total for 5 attacks result in routs .. this should stave off pressure for one more precious turn ..




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_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 973
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/17/2020 3:50:08 PM   
Beria


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/6/2017
Status: offline 		T032 Soviet North




quote:

quote:

quote:

quote:

Mamluke, Soviet Centre Commander
the Germans have a strong division defending the rail line But at least you will get a rail connection from Yaroslavl.(it will take quite a while..)


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
However, 3 of my Cav Corps were routed north east of Moscow
One of the panzer corps is active


Mamluke, Soviet Centre Commander
too many panzers in the area comrade you still manage to push then back considerably


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
Yup
Got to be a bit careful now though. I guess they got tired of being pushed around : p


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Post #: 974
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/17/2020 4:20:13 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beria

T032 Soviet North

quote:

quote:

quote:

quote:

Mamluke, Soviet Centre Commander
the Germans have a strong division defending the rail line But at least you will get a rail connection from Yaroslavl.(it will take quite a while..)


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
However, 3 of my Cav Corps were routed north east of Moscow
One of the panzer corps is active


Mamluke, Soviet Centre Commander
too many panzers in the area comrade you still manage to push then back considerably


Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
Yup
Got to be a bit careful now though. I guess they got tired of being pushed around : p


'Tonight when I chase the dragon
The water may change to cherry wine
And the silver will turn to gold
(Time out of mind)
Time out of mind'

Steely Dan (in T-34)

(in reply to Beria)
Post #: 975
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 12:00:17 AM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

I am not sure if you have seen the latest turn .. but things are looking good for us ..
Some Finns were withdrawn which creates a minor crisis .. but .. the Soviets decided to attack where I had good art and paid a price .. in one battle 1/2 of the tanks lost in a brigade (39) The left 3 cav units exposed to attack and I think I can rout these guys with air support



I push back the Soviet offense with some attacks from the Finn's.. the Finn's that were depleted and starving just few turns ago are now making life difficult for the Soviets ...




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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 976
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 12:05:37 AM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		The lions take their pound of flesh but a look at the AFV's lost .. we are trading tanks for space and time ..
A routed unit has some probability of not being active the next turn, and they rout away from the action, which takes time to get back into position. I do not think I am playing an expensive game of wack-a-mole but I believe very strongly that the Soviet's have limited resources and once expended we can start thinking about our initiatives.




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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 977
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 4:56:11 AM   
Beria


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/6/2017
Status: offline 		T033 Soviet North

quote:

Neogodhobo, Soviet Supreme Commander
Stiff resistence in Moscow, the enemy has not retreated. And we know the Germans are on a slow retreat defensive strategy so this leads me to think maybe Moscow isnt well protected. That would be odd though. Advance to Moscow @Darojax and try to encircle it. Keep operations going as strong as possible in the main offensive. And as far as everything else, keep doing whatever you are all doing.
...
Alright bring them back then. Keep on pushing as much as you can and also prepare for defensive position in the coming months





quote:

Darojax, Soviet Centre Commander
Progress towards Moscow very slow as resistance is getting stiffer with Panzer Divisions and other strong units joining the axis defense.


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Post #: 978
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 2:32:06 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		From my perspective, in terms of combing strategy, operational maneuver, and tactical decisions, WITE is one of the most brilliant war games to date. The player(s) that only focus on one or two of these facets will be at a disadvantage against players that understand how strategy, operational maneuver, and tactics are integrated into this game.

I propose that the tactics of this game are expressed in the use of SU's. Many wargames have a combat value (offensive and defensive) and a combat results table. The old war colleges exclaimed that 3:1 was ratio needed to guarantee victory, and many wargames, especially AH, used this mantra to design relatively dimensionally flat wargames. WITE is very very different. WITE deftly integrates a concept of firepower into the combat results.

I have written volumes in AAR's and I have posted in various places my understanding of firepower. But in summary, it is a very complex game of Rochambeau, or "rock. paper, scissors" Except you have light, medium, and heavy armor, dive bombers and level bombers, infantry and infantry weapons, and artillery. If those combinations are not enough, within these categories are good and bad match ups. The combinations are made complex by the famous (or infamous ) Grisby die roll. There are leadership checks, morale checks .... With all this complexity it is very easy to be overwhelmed and just think CV and 2:1 ...

The Soviet's are discussing discovering the Panzer divisions. From a high level these units represent 5 CV per medium tank. What is not being discussed (at least in this AAR) is the SU's required to neutralize the German tanks, and directly lower the CV per unit. One huge advantage of blizzard -- blizzard light or the harsh blizzard is the fact that damaged AFV's have a die roll for destroyed. From a tactical (and strategic over time) perspective I am expecting anti-tank SU's either in the units or on map AT units. The skeptical Soviet will exclaim that the AT guns are worthless but a 45mm matched up vs a Pz II will damage and possibly outright destroy the device. Out of 50 tanks match up against say 5 and you have a 10% cut in armor. But I am not seeing this thus far. Thus, I feel pretty good that the exchange in terms of blood for space and time will be a profitable one...

From my perspective the Soviets see winter and the ability to cut through the German lines like butter. Reality is that an aggressive German commander willing to sacrifice manpower and devices can put up a good fight. Quite possibly not only flounder the Soviet plan -- but set up a strategic advantage for the summer.

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 979
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 2:51:24 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		This posting builds on the concept of SU's. In this case, you can see a mix of German SU's vs 2 infantry divisions and a Soviet Artillery SU. The German's have brought a nebelwerfer rgt, medium raged guns, and flak from HQ units. The Panzer divisions are attached with things like Stug IIIb's with a 75 mm gun that matches up quite well to infantry in the open. The abundance of support vs no support yields a rout.

The Soviet player that does not understand this concept or simply believes the German Panzer divisions are "invincible" will find that to be true.




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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 980
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 2:58:00 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		TURN 34 STRATEGIC

The map below shows the Soviet/German positions as the North commander is extracting forces from a possible Kessel. The Soviet's are paying a high price for the miles gained. From a strategy point of view, the Soviet's are at 4.6M Manpower. If they cannot build up to 6M by summer they will be in deep trouble. Until the Soviet's match up against the Panzers -- I will continue to punch exposed units in the nose … Note 7 routed units .. likely from the same Soviet Army as they are gathered around a HQ ..

There is one other thing to notice in this picture from a SU standpoint. The forts have infantry defending. Attached to the forts are artillery units. Attached to the infantry HQ's are more raillery and flak. Should the Soviet's decide to come and play these defense will extract a toll ...




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Crackaces -- 4/18/2020 4:40:18 PM >

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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 981
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 4:43:27 PM   
Beria


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/6/2017
Status: offline 		T034 Soviet Moscow

Last turn we bumped into forts on the way to Moscow. The Black line describes the complete line of forts. We know from earlier in this AAR they have been digging since the summer good weather turns. They are now level 2 forts with enormous defensive CVs we are not going to beat. For this blizzard this as close to Moscow as we will ever get. We do not even try to attack them - those forts have done their job.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Beria -- 4/18/2020 4:44:17 PM >

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Post #: 982
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 4:49:44 PM   
Beria


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/6/2017
Status: offline 		T034 Soviet North

The fangs are drawn as we pullback the main assault pincers to regroup and refit for summer 42.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Beria -- 4/18/2020 4:50:37 PM >

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Post #: 983
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 5:00:29 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beria

T034 Soviet Moscow

Last turn we bumped into forts on the way to Moscow. The Black line describes the complete line of forts. We know from earlier in this AAR they have been digging since the summer good weather turns. They are now level 2 forts with enormous defensive CVs we are not going to beat. For this blizzard this as close to Moscow as we will ever get. We do not even try to attack them - those forts have done their job.





The forts, the units, and stuffing SU's was an idea brewed very early in this game. The forts were initially dug by the original Center commander that soon became the North commander's responsibility. Besides CV, the SU's matched up quite well with your Cavalry and Infantry units. I suspect that the results will be "Scouted" .. but if engaged would have been devastating for the infantry squads along with associated devices. Sometimes finesse works better than brute force ..

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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 984
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 5:08:30 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		The North continues to find weaker match-up's along the line. In this case a lower morale infantry unit. We identify the target and rout them backwards. The AT brigade is a poor match for my longer ranged artillery, and the Soviet's have only organic artillery support.




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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 985
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 5:17:14 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		TURN 35: Strategic

From a strategic perspective, the north commander is satisfied with the results from the previous 4 turns. A salient has been successfully straightened, and the Soviet offense is ground to a halt well short of their objectives. It is the North's commanders strong believe that this offensive was failure in many respects. The offensive did have exciting moments were I thought they would achieve a breakthrough, but one problem is Soviet manpower. The offensive used up blood to achieve what gains? How does the offensive achieve long term Soviet objectives? I would propose that it made the German's goals much easier to obtain in 1942 ...




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< Message edited by Crackaces -- 4/18/2020 5:18:00 PM >

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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 986
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 5:40:32 PM   
Beria


Posts: 403
Joined: 4/6/2017
Status: offline 		T035 Soviet North

All quiet on the Eastern Front (North). 1st Shock army with its cavalry is now being railed away.



quote:

Neogodhobo, Soviet Supreme Commander
8th, 7th and 20th Pz. Div and 203rd Pz. Regiment are located in front of Moscow.




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< Message edited by Beria -- 4/18/2020 5:44:26 PM >

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Post #: 987
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 7:12:15 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		TURN 36

With the Soviet blizzard offensive stopped dead cold [so to speak] The armor moves into level 4 towns, which protects them from the ravages of the winter. The infantry now front the Soviets. The mud period will allow time from the armor to build back up with the factories turning out new tank models and obsolete models flung into the paths of Soviet rounds ...

My job is done for the Blizzard ..




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Post #: 988
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 7:57:37 PM   
joelmar


Posts: 1023
Joined: 3/16/2019
Status: offline 		Very well told story and excellent comments Crackaces. I agree 100% with you in your comments about how the game is complex and how many players, even very good and experienced, overlook many aspects of it to concentrate on some basic principles turning around stuff like raw CV, which is OK too, but there is so much more under the hood in the pico-management world!!! And I think that is where long games are won or lost.

Another thing that is not often mentionned is that attacking with less men than the enemy has defending, even with much higher CV, can lead to bloody noses too. By example a regiment with 6 CV deliberate attacking a normal 1=1 division often fails, which makes perfect sense to me in reality.

You also gave me the lead for how to approach SU's and I've been looking into it more and more lately. By example, howitzer and guns don't serve the same purpose, and even howitzers of the same caliber don't all have the same capabilities. Even if they don't match up often against what they are best against, if they match up, often it kills. Not always so spectacular over 1 turn, but turn after turn, it adds up, and even more so against a player who isn't aware or doesn't give attention to that. So they have to be used judiciously.

All that combined with Beria's posts give a nice overall picture of what happened and perspectives from both sides... Well done guys!

_____________________________

"The closer you get to the meaning, the sooner you'll know that you're dreamin'" -Dio

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 989
RE: 2x3+ 025-037 North - 4/18/2020 11:16:04 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		I was given the task of stopping the Soviets' offense. That was accomplished. The AAR with juxtaposition posts tells a story. One side with a vision of an isolated Kessel and the other side pragmatically stopping that offense and looking toward the summer.

But, the posts also detail the precise thought about accomplishing those goals, and disappointments.

In the end, my premise was that the Soviet's did not have the manpower to conduct a meaningful offensive. If they had 6M, a level I have seen in AAR's, then this would be a different story. Worse, the manpower total is still close to 5M. At the end of the offense the same basic constraint to Soviet operations offense or defense. Manpower. As the summer is over the horizon only the mud season postpones that the Soviet's have yet to address this question.

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to joelmar)
Post #: 990
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