RE: OT-The Vietnam War

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RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/23/2017 5:11:52 PM

spence

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From: Vancouver, Washington
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quote:

LBJ took us in and for reasons difficult to parse, but not for domestic political purposes.

Actually, in Episode 2 (I think), the series plays a tape where LBJ says exactly that himself.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 31

RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/23/2017 7:09:40 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Strategic principles transcend the scope of individual wars and are ignored at the peril of any who fight wars ignoring their importance. The US never chose an attainable objective as the focus of its efforts. The North Vietnamese chose the US will to fight the war as their objective because they had no other attainable objective.

Exactly. The North had the objective of making us go away. That was achievable. We had an objective of changing hearts and minds by imposing violence. That was not achievable. Never has been. And that is a lesson we have not learned in our more recent wars.

Armies can do some things: kill people, destroy assets, hold territory, occupy capitals. They can't make people love us. In Vietnam, for nuclear reasons, invading and holding the North was not an option. At that point it became a war of endurance and pain thresholds. The North had a lot more at stake than we did, and their pain threshold was commensurate.

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Post #: 32

RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/23/2017 7:27:51 PM

geofflambert

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From: St. Louis
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Well said.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 33

RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/23/2017 9:45:02 PM

AW1Steve

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What always amazes me is that with all the wonderful things we can discuss about this game, for some people it's never enough. They just have to bring up a subject that belongs on the general forum, or one of the others. THEY JUST KNOW that they are bringing up a controversial subject , that will always involve politics and strong feelings. Why? Why , with all the different forms of social media available to them to they bring such things here? Except for the possibility , that they can't help themselves (because they are natural born trolls) I can't fathom it.

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Post #: 34

RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/23/2017 11:38:34 PM

JohnDillworth

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Only just started and 2 episodes in. At the time, The United States viewed the situation as creeping Communism. In retrospect, the ongoings in Vietnam were simply just another chapter in the death throes of Colonialism. A couple of things jump out as they relate to current events, and I know I am treading close to current politics so if I get tweaked or start a brush fire it's my own darn fault.
#1. Who wants to be the last person to die for a mistake? There are some ongoing entanglements that can not possibly end in victory. Yet we persist. Seems we are passing the buck to the next guy because we don't want to lose on our watch.
#2. In hindsight it is easy to see how one tiny escalation after another led us down a bad and unexpected path. We should head history and try not to let that happen again

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to AW1Steve)

Post #: 35

RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/24/2017 12:15:39 AM

spence

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From: Vancouver, Washington
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+1! Cheers!

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 36

RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/25/2017 1:59:38 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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The greatest lesson the United States should have learned from this war was that NO nation should engage in a war they are not WILLING to win.

Participant.

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Post #: 37

RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/25/2017 2:30:12 PM

Lecivius

Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

The greatest lesson the United States should have learned from this war was that NO nation should engage in a war they are not WILLING to win.

Participant.

And be willing to do what is needed to achieve said win.

War is the result when politics fail. The U.S. military is an extension of that policy, and under the control of the civilian authority. That's not a bad idea. But achieving political aims via a tool used when politics fail is inherently flawed. Once politics fail, and the military function is engaged, the tool needs to be used to impose political will. Using the military to achieve political goals is like using a hammer to mash potatoes, and achieves the same results.

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If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

(in reply to m10bob)

Post #: 38

RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/25/2017 5:16:19 PM

m10bob

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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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Consider me prejudiced if you will as I prefer the "old traditions" of having our leaders taken from a pool of folks who had seen combat themselves, the theory being they might understand the true costs of putting anothers' children in "harms' way", and the combat experience might also put him in a position to know what the combatants would need in advance of that commitment.

Joseph Balkoski wrote a series of books about the WW2 exploits of dad's first combat unit, the 29th I.D.
In it, Balkoski interviewed one man who summed combat this way; "For the combat veteran trying to explain what he had experienced to a civilian, would be like a child trying to explain fairy tales to an adult...and trying to get the adult to understand those fairy tales were real."
For this reason alone I am prejudiced for a veteran to be the leaders to make those dreadful decisions.

As Sun Tsu said..."If you are fighting a fair fight, you did not plan well enough".
(Since then others also said it, but pretty sure he was the first.)

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Post #: 39

RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/25/2017 5:35:45 PM

crsutton

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Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Only just started and 2 episodes in. At the time, The United States viewed the situation as creeping Communism. In retrospect, the ongoings in Vietnam were simply just another chapter in the death throes of Colonialism. A couple of things jump out as they relate to current events, and I know I am treading close to current politics so if I get tweaked or start a brush fire it's my own darn fault.
#1. Who wants to be the last person to die for a mistake? There are some ongoing entanglements that can not possibly end in victory. Yet we persist. Seems we are passing the buck to the next guy because we don't want to lose on our watch.
#2. In hindsight it is easy to see how one tiny escalation after another led us down a bad and unexpected path. We should head history and try not to let that happen again

Good points. Looking back it seems ridiculous that our leaders failed to see the reality of Communist ambitions over the Nationalist ambitions of small countries. To think that Vietnam would ever allow themselves to become puppets of the Chinese (their traditional enemies)or the Soviets now looks foolish. However, in sympathy with our leaders of the times, the threat of Communism (and the admitted aim of the communists at the time) seemed very real back in the 1950s and 60s and it is easy for me to see what they saw as a legitimate threat. Sometimes fear drives the wrong decisions. I feel same with the talk today about the threat of global radical Islam. Islam is a religion and no religion in history has ever gained ascendancy over nationalistic and cultural differences throughout the globe.

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I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

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Post #: 40

RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/25/2017 6:11:14 PM

MakeeLearn

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quote:

Joseph Balkoski wrote a series of books about the WW2 exploits of dad's first combat unit, the 29th I.D.
In it, Balkoski interviewed one man who summed combat this way; "For the combat veteran trying to explain what he had experienced to a civilian, would be like a child trying to explain fairy tales to an adult...and trying to get the adult to understand those fairy tales were real."

What is the difference between a fairy tale and a war story?

A fairy tale begins "Once upon a time...."

A war story begins "You ain't going to believe this sh*t, but...."

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 41

RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/25/2017 6:38:42 PM

Canoerebel

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There's an old legal saying that bears on the issue: "Bad cases make bad law." IE, when a man has been caught red-handed committing an atrocity of a crime, an appellate court will bend over backwards to sustain his conviction, contorting the law in ways that will have unforeseen and troublesome consequences later.

When people fear something or hate something, bad decisions are made.

It is hard enough for wise and temperate people to make good decisions under pressure.

Woe be the democracy or republic that elects or repeatedly elects unwise or intemperate leaders.

(in reply to MakeeLearn)

Post #: 42

RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/25/2017 10:03:28 PM

DD696

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Joined: 7/9/2004
From: near Savannah, Ga
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In 1965 I turned 18. In the summer of 1964 I had run away from home and was living with my father on the desert west of Blythe, California. I heard on the news about the Gulf of Tonkin incident. In 1965 when I graduated from high school, I had met a girl that was too be the love that was to last forever - or at least until 1969. College and a supposed heart murmur kept me out of the draft.

I enlisted in the USMC on 29 December 1970, arriving at USMC Recruit Depot, San Diego on New Years Eve 1970. The Drill Instructors never let us forget how we had f***** up their New Year's Eve. Anyway, I enlisted with a 4 year Ground Combat Guarantee, and despite all the infantry training I went through, never spent a day in an infantry unit. The question I was always asked was "Can you type". I could, and was a S1/legal clerk for the 1st Marine Division, and later in S3 operations at Subic Bay, Philippines, before reenlisting for computer programming hence to spent four years qt Quantico, Virginia.

But, the point of the story is that back in 2002 my brother and I visited the grave site of President Johnson, and I told him I wanted to walk in there and piss on his grave. He talked me out of it, saying they most certainly have cameras in the trees and such, and so I just stood there 25-30 feet way and curse him. Could he have been that stupid? I think not, at this time in my life, but in 2002 I absolutely despised him and all he stood for.

Today, so many years later, I have to admit that I was wrong and that the damned hippies and anti war thugs were right. That being said, I still despise Jane Fonda.

Is this political? No, it is very personal.

Bad times to grow up in. Bad times we just want to forget.

_____________________________

USMC: 1970-1977. A United States Marine.
We don't take kindly to idjits.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 43

RE: OT-The Vietnam War - 9/25/2017 10:09:31 PM

adarbrauner

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Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spence

Tactics change with the times, the weapons available, the terrain and the nature of the enemy. Tactically the North Vietnamese/Viet Cong contributed all that they had to contribute to the conflict at the beginning of the conflict. Tactically, they learned that to even manage a draw in a battle, they had to get in so close to US forces that the US could not safely employ its overwhelming artillery/air power. Tactically the US learned to employ infantry as "bait" to get the NVA/VC to attack and subject themselves to that overwhelming air and artillery firepower. When one side or the other failed to fit a battle to the tactical principles prevailing in the specific circumstances of that battle its losses were unacceptably high. For the US "unacceptably high" was incalculably lower than for North Vietnam (for a whole bunch of factors relating to the nature of the societies and other soft sciences which are inextricably tied to the ability of a country to fight a war).

As a non-American, under 50 years of age, I base my knowledge of the Vietnam conflict and US Army readiness and ability to fight it on the book of Col D. Hackworth, that I had the good venture to acquire...

< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 9/25/2017 10:11:08 PM >

(in reply to DD696)

Post #: 44