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RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/25/2017 6:49:52 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ballyhoo

Not sure what you agree with mikmyk but I did nothing wrong just to be on the record, I have watched videos, and read the manual, that does not mean I am going to automatically understand something (or that other people will). I have paid good money for this product and it was advertised when I purchased it that the board could be used to help learn the title. The fact that bullies are allowed to prowl on this board is discouraging and will make me think twice next time I purchase an item on Matrix. This will probably be the last title I purchase on Matrix because I do not like the fact that such an expensive and complicated game is sold and that I am discouraged from coming on here and communicating with people on how to learn the game...


I understand and very sorry for that. My post wasn't directed at you at all. I hope your next game purchase goes well wherever you buy it.

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 9/25/2017 6:51:46 PM >

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RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/25/2017 11:01:55 PM   
ultradave


Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/20/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ballyhoo

This will probably be the last title I purchase on Matrix because I do not like the fact that such an expensive and complicated game is sold and that I am discouraged from coming on here and communicating with people on how to learn the game...


Well, you've gotten plenty of good help here. If I were you I'd just let pass the one person who gets under your skin. Keep working on the game. There is a lot to learn. Remember what I said. Missions are your friend. For the question that started this, the best way is several reference points (box triangle, whatever), set relative to your ship, then set an ASW mission or AAW mission depending on the threat, for that box. If you have more than one helicopter, then assign both, select the 1/3 rule and keep 1 on station, and voila, done.

For AAW another idea is to forget the relative box, send him out off axis at low altitude, pop up, turn on the radar and see what's out there. That way you don't have his radar signature sitting over the top of your ship. Kind of like active sonar, using your radar is going to advertise where you are. Of course, if they've already found you...... :-)

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Dave A.
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep he checks his closet for paratroopers"

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Post #: 32
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 4:15:17 AM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I appreciate all the positive support I have received from many people on this board - it more than makes up for the one jerk. People should not be shamed for tying to learn -- and I have read a lot of the manual, but there is more to it than that. For example the rotating reference point works great for getting a helo or other unit to circle around a larger ship in a predictable manner. I have so far had less success when trying to get a MTB to from a fixed point shadow on the starboard or port side of a larger unit. I have tried locking and unlocking the reference point but somehow I have not yet made it work the way I want. And there is so much more I want to learn -- it is exciting this great technology of a war simulation.

Edit, it must be that I am assigning the MTBs patrol missions that even though there point is a fixed reference they are still going to patrol around. I will try support mission to see of they do not wander so much. apparently they Capt's have their own ideas of where to navigate

I just ask, and many have voiced up and I am grateful -- do not allow others to try and shame or berate people asking questions. What seems self evident to one might be completely confusing. I cannot imagine the person that has berated me is any kind of normal human being so I shouldn't get frazzled. at the suggesting of someone here, I have blocked him. Thanks again!

< Message edited by ballyhoo -- 9/26/2017 4:57:22 AM >

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Post #: 33
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 11:32:33 AM   
ultradave


Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/20/2013
Status: offline 		" I have so far had less success when trying to get a MTB to from a fixed point shadow on the starboard or port side of a larger unit. I have tried locking and unlocking the reference point but somehow I have not yet made it work the way I want."

Can you explain this more? Not sure what you are trying to do from the description.

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Dave A.
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep he checks his closet for paratroopers"

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Post #: 34
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 1:14:04 PM   
Sigma8510

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 4/15/2006
Status: offline 		On a related note, I have had issues with surface units assigned to relative reference point ASW mission patrol boxes around a convoy falling way out of station. Thought it might be related to them attempting to prosecute contacts outside of the box, so I set the mission to not allow this behavior. The surface units still do not maintain station within the boxes well at all. Away from my game computer, but plan on posting a save example in the tech support forum this weekend.


(in reply to ultradave)
Post #: 35
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 1:32:28 PM   
ultradave


Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/20/2013
Status: offline 		I think this was fixed. It definitely was an issue. I'll see if I can find the posting that described this.

[edit] - This thread might describe the problem you are seeing, but if you are up to date the below issue shouldn't be happening:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4281225&mpage=1&key=�

< Message edited by ultradave -- 9/26/2017 1:47:09 PM >

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Post #: 36
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 2:59:01 PM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I assume I have to be up to date to have the fix for the problem? I tried running the latest version from the members section but I am still at V 1.2 B 936.21.


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Post #: 37
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 3:06:18 PM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		All I am trying to do is assign a station from one unit to another using the fixed reference point function. For example I want to have an MTB shadow a frigate on the starboard side. I create a reference point, place it where I want the MTB to station in relation to the frigate. I make that point fixed bearing in relation to the frigate. I create a patrol mission with the MTB and on the mission editor I select the MTB unit assign it a patrol ASUW mission and I make sure that one fixed reference point is in the mission editor box where it needs to be (the box where you normally have four points if you are assigning a specific defined area to patrol now there is just that one fixed reference point which is in relation to the frigate). Then I run the game. I would expect that the MTB will travel where that one fixed reference point is, but it never does, it strays somewhere completely different. The rotating points work well though, I do not want an MTB rotating around the frigate.

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Post #: 38
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 3:11:28 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		If the MTB is on the same side I'd group the ships together and use the formation editor to assign a station.

If you want a potentially hostile MTB to shadow try assigning the MTB to a surface patrol mission with an area that includes the target and make sure MTB's side is unfriendly to the target ship. This will cause the MTB to follow and do everything but attack (unfriendly posture causes this). You can then design or script in what happens if and when the contact goes hostile.

Mike

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RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 3:18:40 PM   
ultradave


Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/20/2013
Status: offline 		Oh, I see. Ok, what you want for this is the Formation Editor, F4. First, right now, read the manual, page 55 at the bottom and onto page 56. Then read the rest of this.

Group selected units, open up the F E with F4, designate the frigate as the base unit, then select the MTB, select relative, click on the map where you want him relative to the frigate, and it will do it's best to maintain station. That's all you have to do. No mission. From then on you give your orders to the group, not the two individual units.

There's a check box for sprint and drift is not described in the original manual. It's a newer feature. Basically, an escort will sprint ahead at high speed, then slow to a crawl to listen (for subs). Then repeat. Good if your formation is moving at speed but you have an ASW threat to worry about. Other than that the manual has good descriptions of the options.

Previously we were discussing the missions and reference points because those make more sense for air units that are out front or patrolling for enemy A/C or subs. If you just want ships to keep station and "escort" others, then F4 is what you want.

[edit] Since you've been playing NI scenarios, open up the Beware of the Badgers scenario and you'll be starting with 3 large task forces, all set in formations around the most important units (Aircraft Carriers and Amphibious Landing Ships). You can get a good idea of how they work, reset the formations to different, play around with it.

Oh, and you can open F4 at any time and modify a formation. When you restart the game the ships will adjust. Might take some minutes depending on what you asked for (think about it - they are moving forward, and you've asked them to either move up or drop back and maybe spread out - takes time because their RELATIVE speed to each other is quite slow)

< Message edited by ultradave -- 9/26/2017 3:23:45 PM >

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Dave A.
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Post #: 40
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 4:02:59 PM   
Sigma8510

 

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Joined: 4/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ultradave

Snip...

Previously we were discussing the missions and reference points because those make more sense for air units that are out front or patrolling for enemy A/C or subs. If you just want ships to keep station and "escort" others, then F4 is what you want.

...Snip

Dave,
I think you have identified where I am going wrong. WRT ship stationing, I have been trying to do with missions what is more appropriately done with the F4 formation key. In my mind, I thought there had been some information provided here on the forums that said you should use missions to assign patrol zones for all types of units, when apparently they work best for air units, and F4 formations should be sufficient for ships. Am I on track here?

Some possible exceptions to this may be when you want a radar picket (or silent Sam, etc.) out front, or along the threat axis, I would think.

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Post #: 41
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 4:28:44 PM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		okay this helps clear it up. I was trying all sorts of things with missions, even creating boxes next to the base ship for the MTB to station in......

Also regarding the latest version I am on, do you know why, if I DL'd from the member site I would still be on the version/build that I am on?

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Post #: 42
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 4:43:24 PM   
ultradave


Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/20/2013
Status: offline 		There are version releases and there are betas that you can load as interim updates. It's really up to you if you want to update every interim release that comes out. Sometimes they fix or add something key that you really want.

I'm on 936.21 You're fine.

The reply about the station keeping was not to you it was to the question from jbaxter, which now that I see his other post, my answer was not related to.

< Message edited by ultradave -- 9/26/2017 4:48:02 PM >

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Dave A.
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep he checks his closet for paratroopers"

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Post #: 43
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 4:46:06 PM   
ultradave


Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/20/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jbaxter1964


quote:

ORIGINAL: ultradave

Snip...

Previously we were discussing the missions and reference points because those make more sense for air units that are out front or patrolling for enemy A/C or subs. If you just want ships to keep station and "escort" others, then F4 is what you want.

...Snip

Dave,
I think you have identified where I am going wrong. WRT ship stationing, I have been trying to do with missions what is more appropriately done with the F4 formation key. In my mind, I thought there had been some information provided here on the forums that said you should use missions to assign patrol zones for all types of units, when apparently they work best for air units, and F4 formations should be sufficient for ships. Am I on track here?

Some possible exceptions to this may be when you want a radar picket (or silent Sam, etc.) out front, or along the threat axis, I would think.


Well, yes, but you can still do a lot with the formation editor. You can make a ship (like a radar picket as you describe) as a fixed bearing and distance as well, and if your TF moves in circles, say, it will stay on that threat axis for you. If you want someone WAAAAY out there it's probably best to detach them and send them to a patrol box or line, at least in my experience.

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Dave A.
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Post #: 44
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 5:22:07 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I tend to use formation editor for ships only, and close in protection only. Like a near AAW or ASW ship close to HVAs like tankers and carriers. I use patrol zones for further out AAW/radar pickets and ASW sanitizing ships and aircraft. Then I have my CAP and AEW patrol zones out even further.

As far as how far on each...too many dependencies...weapon range, unit speed, sensor capabilties, etc. These are very OOB and year specific.

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Post #: 45
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 7:06:24 PM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I will work on the formation editor but I am curious, why are the fixed reference points not working? Even when i create a box relative to the main unit the secondary unit will not stay in that box -- although rotation point works as I would expect.

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Post #: 46
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 7:44:25 PM   
ultradave


Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/20/2013
Status: offline 		Can you post a save? Not enough info to answer without taking a look. I'm guessing it has something to do with your mission parameters - whether you are allowing the unit to investigate outside the box, that sort of thing.

< Message edited by ultradave -- 9/26/2017 7:45:42 PM >

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Dave A.
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Post #: 47
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 7:51:30 PM   
ultradave


Posts: 1355
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I tend to use formation editor for ships only, and close in protection only. Like a near AAW or ASW ship close to HVAs like tankers and carriers. I use patrol zones for further out AAW/radar pickets and ASW sanitizing ships and aircraft. Then I have my CAP and AEW patrol zones out even further.

As far as how far on each...too many dependencies...weapon range, unit speed, sensor capabilties, etc. These are very OOB and year specific.


Good point and points out why it's hard to offer a lot of must do advice. The simulation covers a wide range of years and weapon and sensor capabilities, and every scenario has different threats and objectives. You need to be able to adapt tactics to the scenario. Unfortunately some of that adaptation is going to come from hard knocks and sunken ships/shot down aircraft. But they aren't real ones so it allows you to refine your ideas.

The same thing is done in the military. I can't count the number of times we "fought" WW3 in Europe and lesser scenarios when I was in the Army. Do it over and over so that everyone knows what to do or not do if it really happens. And of course, you can't forget the axiom that no plan survives first contact with the enemy.

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Post #: 48
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 8:01:41 PM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		also when trying to group selected units, why do I get the error message "joining multiple groups is not supported at this time Dissolve all groups except one and add all units to selcted group."

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Post #: 49
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 8:04:55 PM   
thewood1

 

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Status: offline 		Because...joining multiple groups is not supported at this time. Dissolve all groups except one and add all units to selected group.

Translation...you can't join multiple groups. You can only add units to a group.

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Post #: 50
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 8:05:58 PM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Then when I try and dissolve a group it will not allow it.

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Post #: 51
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 8:08:27 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
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Status: offline 		Somehow you're trying to join two groups. This usually happens if you're viewing in unit view mode rather than group view mode and don't notice you're doing that. You can toggle this on and off with the v key, PgUp or Num 9 key.
Don't try any grouping while in the formation editor either (not sure this is really possible).

You can also detatch units from groups by selecting them and pressing d if added them to another group by accident.

Thanks!

Mike



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Post #: 52
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 8:13:00 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Page 17 in the manual...found it by searching the word "dissolve"

"you can detach individuals by select then in unit
view (see below) and pressing the d key. Once you get down to
one unit the group will dissolve."

That is how I have always done it. But don't do it often.

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Post #: 53
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 8:19:41 PM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		THanks, that helps a bit. So when you are in group mode it is not a fair representation of where all the units are, I notice, that when I grouped units together then looking in group mode they are all shown together, even though they are separated by some ocean.

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Post #: 54
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 8:29:46 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah. The group icon in generally centered on the group leader. There is a game option that does allow you to see members in a ghosted form if you'd like. You can find under the game options, Map Display tab. (Game Menu->Game Options->Map Display Tab->Show ghosted group members menu item).

Mike

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Post #: 55
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 8:58:47 PM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		So I accomplished the skill, in the scenario fast and furios. It was a bit of work, having to de-group all the units and then create one large group and then formation editor. When I finished and started up the timer the map was full of red and yellow concentric rings that I did not notice before, and it was somewhat over kill in that sense. Thanks again

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Post #: 56
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 9:39:04 PM   
ultradave


Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/20/2013
Status: offline 		You can fix that too. There is a map display option to merge range symbols. I don't have the game open right now but it's in the Map Settings menu. Just tick it and it will clean up the display a lot. You can always toggle it if there is something specific you want to check. For TF with several units, makes sense to just have the merge symbols turned on to reduce clutter. Page 23

Same menu you can select what range rings you want to see. (but this is something you should know by now I think).

< Message edited by ultradave -- 9/26/2017 9:43:07 PM >

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Dave A.
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep he checks his closet for paratroopers"

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Post #: 57
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 9:53:58 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ballyhoo

So I accomplished the skill, in the scenario fast and furios. It was a bit of work, having to de-group all the units and then create one large group and then formation editor. When I finished and started up the timer the map was full of red and yellow concentric rings that I did not notice before, and it was somewhat over kill in that sense. Thanks again


Yeah when ungrouped you can see the range rings for weapons (reds) and sensors (air=white, surface=yellow, sonar=greens). Its good stuff to know but can clutter the map. As Dave mentioned you can customize to display to your liking in a bunch of different ways by modifying things under the view and map settings menus.

Mike

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Post #: 58
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 10:19:00 PM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I wonder why the admiralty is still losing so badly in the fast and furious.

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Post #: 59
RE: Air / helo escort of a surface fleet - 9/26/2017 11:14:20 PM   
ultradave


Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/20/2013
Status: offline 		Whole lotta bad guys in that one. You have to be careful not to lose missile boats that you'll need to attack the amphib units. I just barely eked out enough points to proceed. You don't want to charge in headlong. You'll pay (which it sounds like you are learning :-) )

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Dave A.
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep he checks his closet for paratroopers"

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Post #: 60
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