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RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before dawn" 2x3 North German AAA

 
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RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 1/23/2018 3:06:22 PM   
Telemecus


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Status: offline 		Are they walking into a trap?

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Post #: 61
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 1/26/2018 2:38:03 PM   
Crackaces


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Status: offline 		The picture below shows the "pink" units of 16th Army closing on Luga and crossing to assist 4th Pz Group. Compare to the previous picture that Telemecus response is a possible .. trap.
The previous picture shows the Soviets break the pocket on the Luga basin. We re-pocket the Luga Basin and cut off units west of Oranienbaum. The Soviets are getting into a fight and delaying AGN -- but it will cost some units ..
Meanwhile, Go back in this AAR and relook at the staging bases starting on Turn 2. The Luftwaffe has been projecting power into the battlespace since turn #2. There is one vulnerable location, Osinovetes, that has been steadily attacked since turn 4. This turn We are at 52% damage with an expected repair of 3% each turn. That means we can play in the Soviets sandbox until Osinovets is at 70% (repaired to 67% in the Soviet turn) Then all H*LL will break loose.
We are now on Turn 11 and the big payoff is coming.




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< Message edited by Crackaces -- 1/31/2018 8:25:37 PM >

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 62
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 1/31/2018 8:29:43 PM   
Crackaces


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Status: offline 		Sorry in advance for the out of time sequencing like "Pulp Fiction"
Enclosed is a zip file with a PDF attachment. It highlights the battle reports over Osinovets from turn 4 until turn 11 when the Soviets realize Leningrad is completely isolated.
The reader can get a feel for the highs and lows of isolating a level 3 port.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 63
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 1/31/2018 8:50:17 PM   
Crackaces


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Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		Turn 9 at the beginning. The picture below shows the Soviets opening a pocket for the units South of the Luga, but the Luga basin remains isolated. (Units highlighted in red). The eighth panzer division is also isolated while the 7th Panzer division is in Beachhead supply with almost full MP's.
One change to notice is that the fortress zone for Oranienbaum has disappeared.

The plan is to close the pocket even though many devices and squads will end up in the Russian Pool with friendly hexes so close. And reseal the pocket north of the Luga. The Soviets are fighting hard but are in trouble.




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< Message edited by Crackaces -- 1/31/2018 8:55:05 PM >

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 64
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 1/31/2018 9:08:07 PM   
Crackaces


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Status: offline 		So the next picture shows the nasty work. The pocket in the Luga Basin is completely cleared by XXVIII and L Corps. While I Corps smashes units in the way of the Panzers. Elements of LVI Pz XXX and XXXXI Pz Corps perform a right hook smashing their way with the help of 16th Army II Corps. That flipped Shlisselburg for now and all supply is coming from Osinovets. Unfortunately, The Luftwaffe fails to seal Osinovets and the Soviets continue to fight.
The units hidden at sluditsa show a strength of 5=13 and in combat after a pounding have 88CV while the 20th Panzer division goes from 355-> 142 1.61 and are held. The infantry can't make it and this unit exerts a ZOC for every unit passing by ..



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< Message edited by Crackaces -- 1/31/2018 9:16:13 PM >

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 65
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 2/1/2018 3:31:51 PM   
Telemecus


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Status: offline 		Worth noting that Korten is a very good air commander in the pool and can be appointed to Flieger Korps I at the start of the game. So if doing the Osinovets trap that could further accelerate it.

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Post #: 66
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 2/6/2018 11:55:43 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Worth noting that Korten is a very good air commander in the pool and can be appointed to Flieger Korps I at the start of the game. So if doing the Osinovets trap that could further accelerate it.


Unfortunately Korten did not get his usual promotion .. I had to use what leaders were available .. but if Korten becomes available and one does not dilly dally around Osinovetes might be sealed 2 turns sooner.

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 67
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 2/7/2018 12:26:47 AM   
Crackaces


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Status: offline 		The diagram below shows the end of turn 10. Osinovets is 68% but will be 65% after the port repair.
I believe the Soviets anticipated a right hook, maybe crossing the Volkhov at Volkhov?
In response, AGN orders 4th Panzer group to attack South Southeast in conjunction with 16th Army XX Corps, and clear the units at Chudovo and Myasnoy Bor.
This clears a 50 mile path for the panzers to follow a corridor through Vishera. The results are Everything from Shimsk to Novgorod is isolated with a tight cordon.

The end places for the 2 panzer corps leaves them vulnerable to be smothered by Soviets .. there is a lot of fight left, and the campaign season is near an end ..

We tighten the noose on leningrad.





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< Message edited by Crackaces -- 2/7/2018 12:27:36 AM >

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 68
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 2/7/2018 1:10:51 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Worth noting that Korten is a very good air commander in the pool and can be appointed to Flieger Korps I at the start of the game. So if doing the Osinovets trap that could further accelerate it.


Unfortunately Korten did not get his usual promotion .. I had to use what leaders were available .. but if Korten becomes available and one does not dilly dally around Osinovetes might be sealed 2 turns sooner.


Although knowing the bug in the program no doubt they will say the Luftwaffe near Leningrad is under the direction of the Rumanian air combat leader again!

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Post #: 69
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 2/12/2018 1:09:24 AM   
Crackaces


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Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		Hat's off to Thedoctorking! He has taken the brunt of this game and has hung in there while the center and south commanders have changed multiple times. We have a new Soviet center commander. Welcome!

I believe the Soviets might be in a little bit of trouble. Drakken was the first Soviet commander for the center, and he did not understand to engage and/or channel the German armor over the bad terrain. Our AGC commander pocketed more than the usual suspects. Subsequent center commanders have invested more Soviets into "circles of friendship". AGS has also pocketed many units. The result is on turn 12 over 70 units are pocketed on three fronts. The Soviet population pool on Turn 12 is 3.7M. The Soviet population pool by turn has been 3.6M, 3.8M, 3.6M, 3.8M, 4.0M, 3.8M, 3.9M, 3.9M , 3.7M, 3.8M, 3.7M with last turn 12 reporting 3.7M. The Germans have averaged about 220,000 Soviet casualties per turn, which seems to be a rate that constrains Soviet population pools. There is a thread "how to measure success" This constraint on units and population I think are factors that will enable the Germans to continue the initiative. As long as we have the initiative -- we are not retreating toward Berlin.

A picture of turn 11 will be posted as soon as the Soviets complete Turn 12.

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 70
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 2/12/2018 1:30:57 AM   
Crackaces


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Status: offline 		One comment on the concept of the supreme commander. First, this team has a very remote relationship spread out in Europe and me in the United States. It is a real challenge to coordinate the three players in terms of resources like air platforms, SU's, admin points, and rail cap. One advantage Telemecus has is the concept of authority from expertise having played this game many times. It is also clear to me that Telemecus has experience as a consultant. That is getting people to do what is needed without having explicit authority. To get the team to act as a synergistic single entity we have a private chat channel using discord. We discuss our plans and needs. Then Telemecus writes up an extensive axis allocations with Admin points, air allocations, rail cap, leaders available for replacement,and the propose boundaries between fronts. We have a protocol for air transfers and what platforms go into national reserve based on criteria. A set of ground rules for movement and allocations.

The concept of this role is not very well described by the phrase "supreme leader". This conjures up a notion of a single source of plans and execution according to a script. This game is truly 3 individual players managing their fronts and objectives without unsolicited feedback from above. (Well there have been comments about Stukas but we shall let this pass )

There is coordination. Maybe the role for our team is better described as "head arbitrator and counselor" rather than "supreme leader"? It is clear to me that a WITE campaign needs three players -- one for each front. We share the role of the air mashall bouncing ideas off of Telemecus, who is an expert on WITE airpower. But I could see a team having a dedicated air commander to focus on air bases, details about supply and fuel, policy, managing platforms, and focused on the enemies ability to project air power. Telemecus is an expert no doubt. Another role is a turn manager to coordinate the players schedules and the turn so to be efficient. I also have found chat in real time to be essential in coordinating turns.

Ok the next turn will be quiet ...

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 71
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 2/12/2018 3:18:24 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Status: offline 		I am telling you the stuka experiment was all in the name of science and for the technological progress of the nice reich and therefore completely valid it's completely coincidental that just happens to mean I am not responsible for any unfortunate results of course as all progress has teething problems that cannot be helped!

I wanted to see if we could use them as portable flying fires for the men in winter like any good general would I simply tried to see to the needs of my men ahead of time

They are an altogether useless resource anyways nobody will miss them

< Message edited by SparkleyTits -- 2/12/2018 3:19:02 AM >

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Post #: 72
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 2/12/2018 6:02:11 AM   
KenchiSulla


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From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		How many groups did you destroy in one turn again?



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AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to SparkleyTits)
Post #: 73
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 2/12/2018 12:25:29 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Status: offline 		Be quiet you!

We barely lost a handful

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RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 2/12/2018 1:13:05 PM   
Telemecus


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Post #: 75
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 2/12/2018 1:36:58 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
The concept of this role is not very well described by the phrase "supreme leader". This conjures up a notion of a single source of plans and execution according to a script. This game is truly 3 individual players managing their fronts and objectives without unsolicited feedback from above.


It is ironic that the role in the game cannot be the role you have about the game. While a Supreme commander would instruct three generals in real life what to do, it is not what you do with three wargamers and would not be a lot of fun if you did. Sadly for Supreme Commanders court martialling team members and having them shot at dawn is not an option.

I wrote elsewhere that the very minimum this role needs to do is arbitrate on team resources where demands exceed supply - points, rail cap etc. And that de minimis role could actually take very little time at all to do. In practise there are other roles any team member can add to their portfolio whatever their title. So in the EightMP game I am the air commander where as here we agreed a house rule that I as Axis Supreme could not.

SparkleyTits has been our brilliant team manager. And while they setup a process for it almost to run on autopilot now, they will be there when the tempo changes due to weather, team changes and so on. I think it has also been good to not assume the Supreme Commander role in the game is the same as the team management about the game.

We have been lucky in having every team member happy to use Discord to co-ordinate in real time. Some players however are less keen to use it or would not be able to access it. So it is worth keeping alternate processes for that case.

When considering protocols on how to run a team game there are two recurring dangers
i) The team game becomes just a single person game (e.g. Supreme Commander does everything) with the other team members getting more and more annoyed
ii) Everything needs to be cross checked before anything gets done - meaning the team takes for ever to actually do a turn
So the goal is to give each team member a domain where they are the boss and know they have the authority and discretion to act alone in it.

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 76
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 2/15/2018 2:56:56 PM   
Crackaces


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Status: offline 		VC290 ...

It has always been my understanding that the regular campaign game victory conditions is to keep the Soviets out of Berlin. Thus my strategy as the AGN commander has been to seize the initiative, and keep the initiative as long as possible. My thought is as long as the German has initiative -- we are not retreating toward Berlin. In a discussion with Telemecus and Timmy I learned that the regular campaign game does have a Victory Condition of 290 points. Thus it is possible to achieve a "instant" victory in this campaign game.

So it is a little more complicated than just keep the Soviets out of Berlin. In fact, if there is a freeroll, that is no risks of trying to achieve 290 victory points, it might be worth doing so. I am not sure of this fact. That is if it does not work, now we are heading back faster in retreat as opposed to planning just keeping the Soviets out of Berlin.

We have 5 more turns given turn 13 coming once the Soviet south is done. We have mild winter but +1 attack. The question might be to campaign hard to set up an instant victory in 1942 (I doubt the Soviets will take this challenge lying down ), or prepare for the Soviet winter offense. We are still cleaning up Leningrad -- hard to think of where we need to position AGN next.

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 77
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 2/24/2018 5:59:28 PM   
Crackaces


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Status: offline 		The beginning of turn 11 shows the wrath of the 4th pz group. The units to the west and south of Novogord are isolated. To the North 4 Korps from 18th Army and 1 Korps from the 16th Army is in position to cross the Neva. The plan is to isolate Osinovets this turn using bombers and clear out units standing in front of Leningrad. This will rout units out of the pocket, but I assess this will save a turn capturing Leningrad. There is still plenty of work to do to position the right forces in the right places with the right SU's for the final approach into Leningrad.




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< Message edited by Crackaces -- 2/24/2018 6:04:14 PM >

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 78
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 3/18/2018 6:54:40 PM   
Crackaces


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Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		So on turn 16 I have moved into a role of commanding the air. The team has decided to stay with a scheme of commanding fronts rather than a more general command of various units with objectives. The AGN will go to sleep, and I will focus much more on the 8MP game. I will complete this AAR to show the capture of Leningrad and demonstrate the Finn's pushing from the Janisjarvi to the Vohkov.

At the end of Turn 11 Osinovets has 71% damage. The fate of Leningrad is sealed. I did execute attacks to get my units ready for the crossing -- routing 7 units out of the pocket on Turn 11, but having everything to cross the Neva on turn 12.





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_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 79
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 3/18/2018 7:00:41 PM   
Crackaces


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Status: offline 		The picture below shows the story. Support by units of 16th Army a unit of 18th Army crosses the Neva. I Corps and L Corps fight their way adjacent to Leningrad. I could have secured the entire north peninsula; however, my armor is heading to attack Yaroslavi (now turn 17 in position).
With Leningrad isolated now it is a matter of time.




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_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 80
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 3/18/2018 7:09:23 PM   
Crackaces


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Status: offline 		Turn 13: Leningrad falls. The Soviets air drop supplies to provide maximum resistance, but the elite forces of 18th Army are too much for isolated Soviet forces.




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_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 81
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 3/18/2018 7:30:45 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		What the below screenshot shows is once North Leningrad is taken on turn 14 -- the Finns can start moving south of the no attack line THAT TURN. So we begin the garrisoning project. Also shown that steadily the Finns have been working their way South of Janisjarvi and are now threatening the rail line running west-east. The plan at this point is for the Finns to occupy the no move line as East as they can push with 16th Army stretching from the No move line until Yaroslavi.
This is how I leave the North. On turns 15 & 16 18th Army is railed to a secret location <smile>.

I did find the team experience to be interesting. Though Telemecus is the "supreme commander" for both 8MP and 2x3. there are much different team dynamics. So as an example, the north in 8MP has control of traditional "AGC" units and command of Moscow going North making his front very interesting. We have gone a different way in 2x3.

So in summary, 14 turns and Leningrad is completely taken, the Finns or south of the no attack line both at Leningrad and Janisjarvi. Mission accomplished!




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 82
RE: "They Crossed over the Border an Hour before d... - 3/19/2018 10:50:44 AM   
Telemecus


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Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		The two big lessons I take from this AAR are

i) Leningrad has a weakness to isolation by bombing of Osinovets - and the defence of Leningrad needs to be adapted accordingly.
ii) The Pskow defence really does need to include something between Lake Pskow and its northern half in Lake Peipus. No matter how bad the ground is for supply and movement, if it is undefended it is still better for an attacked then good terrain with opposition.

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 83
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