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OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/27/2017 10:34:10 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
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A month or so back I finished a book that was definitely written for the history deep diver. It's entitled Blood on the Sea and chronicles the loss of every US destroyer sunk in WW II. I found it an interesting look into many different aspects of the naval war. Some were lost to accidents (most hit Allied mines), some hunting subs, some to aircraft, some to naval action, some to shore batteries.

I found some interesting patterns. One was three DDs named after naval personnel lost on Samoa on April 1, 1899. There was a small shore party of naval personnel, 4 of whom were killed trying to get back to their ship after one of them was wounded. Three destroyers were named after the two sailors and two officers killed, the Edsall, Monaghan, and Lansdale. All three were sunk during World War II.

Meredith was an unlucky name. The USN had two ships by that name and both were sunk during the war.

The last DD sunk during the war was named after a WW II admiral who got himself killed due to his own incompetence, the USS Callaghan.

Callaghan had been a desk admiral until he angled for a sea command. He became ranking admiral of the TF protecting Guadalcanal on the night of the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal in November 1942. He had longer time in rank than Admiral Scott (who had the advantage of actually winning a surface engagement), so he became TF commander and Scott became a ride along. Callaghan didn't understand the capabilities of his ships and put the two ships with the best radar at the end of his column instead of at the front. He also didn't order TBS discipline so when the Helena did pick up the Japanese formation before anyone else, nobody could hear her and Callaghan dove headfirst into a CA fight vs BBs with less tactical information that he could have had.

I read Neptune's Inferno earlier this year. Some have criticized it here, but it did a good job of detailing what it set out to cover, the naval engagements around Guadalcanal. Frank's book on the Guadalcanal campaign is more complete, but it's also huge. I was thinking the other day what would have happened if the Washington and North Dakota had been broken loose a couple of days earlier?

I believe Admiral Lee would have become the ranking admiral and he would have made full use of the assets he had. He probably would have put Scott in the Helena and put her out front with the Fletcher. The Washington might have bagged both BBs before they knew what was happening. In the 2nd Battle, the Washington ended up running alone when the 4 DDs and South Dakota were put out of action early in the fight. Imagine what the Washington could have done backed up with several cruisers and more destroyers?

Lee was the first admiral to ride out a battle down in the CIC with the radar operators. He had been in charge of developing naval radar before the war and often knew more about it than the operators. Unlike Callaghan, he knew the capabilities of his radar intimately and knew how to best deploy it.

Bill

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RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/27/2017 10:42:58 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
I plan to review Sea of Thunder and The Last Stand of The Tin Can Sailors both of which primarily cover the "action off Samar", part of the "Battle of Leyte Gulf". Soon.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 2
RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/27/2017 11:06:42 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Joined: 9/11/2016
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Superstition

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo6LRLWUMwU

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 3
RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/28/2017 12:13:09 AM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


A month or so back I finished a book that was definitely written for the history deep diver. It's entitled Blood on the Sea and chronicles the loss of every US destroyer sunk in WW II. I found it an interesting look into many different aspects of the naval war. Some were lost to accidents (most hit Allied mines), some hunting subs, some to aircraft, some to naval action, some to shore batteries.

I found some interesting patterns. One was three DDs named after naval personnel lost on Samoa on April 1, 1899. There was a small shore party of naval personnel, 4 of whom were killed trying to get back to their ship after one of them was wounded. Three destroyers were named after the two sailors and two officers killed, the Edsall, Monaghan, and Lansdale. All three were sunk during World War II.

Meredith was an unlucky name. The USN had two ships by that name and both were sunk during the war.

The last DD sunk during the war was named after a WW II admiral who got himself killed due to his own incompetence, the USS Callaghan.

Callaghan had been a desk admiral until he angled for a sea command. He became ranking admiral of the TF protecting Guadalcanal on the night of the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal in November 1942. He had longer time in rank than Admiral Scott (who had the advantage of actually winning a surface engagement), so he became TF commander and Scott became a ride along. Callaghan didn't understand the capabilities of his ships and put the two ships with the best radar at the end of his column instead of at the front. He also didn't order TBS discipline so when the Helena did pick up the Japanese formation before anyone else, nobody could hear her and Callaghan dove headfirst into a CA fight vs BBs with less tactical information that he could have had.

I read Neptune's Inferno earlier this year. Some have criticized it here, but it did a good job of detailing what it set out to cover, the naval engagements around Guadalcanal. Frank's book on the Guadalcanal campaign is more complete, but it's also huge. I was thinking the other day what would have happened if the Washington and North Dakota had been broken loose a couple of days earlier?

I believe Admiral Lee would have become the ranking admiral and he would have made full use of the assets he had. He probably would have put Scott in the Helena and put her out front with the Fletcher. The Washington might have bagged both BBs before they knew what was happening. In the 2nd Battle, the Washington ended up running alone when the 4 DDs and South Dakota were put out of action early in the fight. Imagine what the Washington could have done backed up with several cruisers and more destroyers?

Lee was the first admiral to ride out a battle down in the CIC with the radar operators. He had been in charge of developing naval radar before the war and often knew more about it than the operators. Unlike Callaghan, he knew the capabilities of his radar intimately and knew how to best deploy it.

Bill

I agree with you about both books. I can't speak to the admirals involved.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 4
RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/28/2017 12:40:46 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


A month or so back I finished a book that was definitely written for the history deep diver. It's entitled Blood on the Sea and chronicles the loss of every US destroyer sunk in WW II. I found it an interesting look into many different aspects of the naval war. Some were lost to accidents (most hit Allied mines), some hunting subs, some to aircraft, some to naval action, some to shore batteries.

I found some interesting patterns. One was three DDs named after naval personnel lost on Samoa on April 1, 1899. There was a small shore party of naval personnel, 4 of whom were killed trying to get back to their ship after one of them was wounded. Three destroyers were named after the two sailors and two officers killed, the Edsall, Monaghan, and Lansdale. All three were sunk during World War II.

Meredith was an unlucky name. The USN had two ships by that name and both were sunk during the war.

The last DD sunk during the war was named after a WW II admiral who got himself killed due to his own incompetence, the USS Callaghan.

Callaghan had been a desk admiral until he angled for a sea command. He became ranking admiral of the TF protecting Guadalcanal on the night of the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal in November 1942. He had longer time in rank than Admiral Scott (who had the advantage of actually winning a surface engagement), so he became TF commander and Scott became a ride along. Callaghan didn't understand the capabilities of his ships and put the two ships with the best radar at the end of his column instead of at the front. He also didn't order TBS discipline so when the Helena did pick up the Japanese formation before anyone else, nobody could hear her and Callaghan dove headfirst into a CA fight vs BBs with less tactical information that he could have had.

I read Neptune's Inferno earlier this year. Some have criticized it here, but it did a good job of detailing what it set out to cover, the naval engagements around Guadalcanal. Frank's book on the Guadalcanal campaign is more complete, but it's also huge. I was thinking the other day what would have happened if the Washington and North Dakota had been broken loose a couple of days earlier?

I believe Admiral Lee would have become the ranking admiral and he would have made full use of the assets he had. He probably would have put Scott in the Helena and put her out front with the Fletcher. The Washington might have bagged both BBs before they knew what was happening. In the 2nd Battle, the Washington ended up running alone when the 4 DDs and South Dakota were put out of action early in the fight. Imagine what the Washington could have done backed up with several cruisers and more destroyers?

Lee was the first admiral to ride out a battle down in the CIC with the radar operators. He had been in charge of developing naval radar before the war and often knew more about it than the operators. Unlike Callaghan, he knew the capabilities of his radar intimately and knew how to best deploy it.

Bill

I also liked Neptune's Inferno but I understand the criticisms of it and agree it does not stand in competition to Guadalcanal. Frank's criticism of Callaghan is spot on IMO, but I also credit the slack that Hornfischer cut him. He could have communicated his plan better, had a better plan, and used his available radar better, but his basic premise of getting in close for a brawl where 8 inch guns could hurt the IJN battleships was the only viable basic choice the USN had that night. It was no timid plan.

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Post #: 5
RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/28/2017 2:30:26 AM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I plan to review Sea of Thunder and The Last Stand of The Tin Can Sailors both of which primarily cover the "action off Samar", part of the "Battle of Leyte Gulf". Soon.


I read the Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors a few months ago. It is excellent, highly recommended. I wish they would make a movie of it -- though considering "the movie which shall not be made" and typical Hollywood practice, maybe not.

Oops, that's supposed to be the movie which shall not be named. Rats.

< Message edited by jwolf -- 10/28/2017 3:44:20 PM >

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 6
RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/28/2017 5:46:32 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
Let this Callaghan knowledge CINC in among the forumites.

(in reply to jwolf)
Post #: 7
RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/28/2017 7:03:01 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I plan to review Sea of Thunder and The Last Stand of The Tin Can Sailors both of which primarily cover the "action off Samar", part of the "Battle of Leyte Gulf". Soon.


I read the Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors a few months ago. It is excellent, highly recommended. I wish they would make a movie of it -- though considering "the movie which shall not be made" and typical Hollywood practice, maybe not.

Hollywood would probably make the Navy look like evil buffoons for Samuel B. Roberts colliding with a whale!
And per the book, the superstitious sailors considered that a bad omen - which it turned out to be.

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(in reply to jwolf)
Post #: 8
RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/28/2017 2:57:20 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I plan to review Sea of Thunder and The Last Stand of The Tin Can Sailors both of which primarily cover the "action off Samar", part of the "Battle of Leyte Gulf". Soon.



I read the Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors a few months ago. It is excellent, highly recommended. I wish they would make a movie of it -- though considering "the movie which shall not be made" and typical Hollywood practice, maybe not.


Hollywood would probably make the Navy look like evil buffoons for Samuel B. Roberts colliding with a whale!
And per the book, the superstitious sailors considered that a bad omen - which it turned out to be.


My guess is that the Battle off Samar would play 2nd fiddle to a torrid love triangle involving the DSO (duty sex object), one of the flying officers on USS Gambier Bay, and an enlisted "snipe" (engineering rating) on USS Samuel B Roberts.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 9
RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/28/2017 3:46:07 PM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
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Spence, that sounds pretty much right on the money. Do you secretly write screenplays for Hollywood?

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 10
RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/28/2017 5:51:28 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I plan to review Sea of Thunder and The Last Stand of The Tin Can Sailors both of which primarily cover the "action off Samar", part of the "Battle of Leyte Gulf". Soon.



I read the Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors a few months ago. It is excellent, highly recommended. I wish they would make a movie of it -- though considering "the movie which shall not be made" and typical Hollywood practice, maybe not.


Hollywood would probably make the Navy look like evil buffoons for Samuel B. Roberts colliding with a whale!
And per the book, the superstitious sailors considered that a bad omen - which it turned out to be.


My guess is that the Battle off Samar would play 2nd fiddle to a torrid love triangle involving the DSO (duty sex object), one of the flying officers on USS Gambier Bay, and an enlisted "snipe" (engineering rating) on USS Samuel B Roberts.

And the DSO would say to her lover, "do you think that Jap CA is headed for us?".

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 11
RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/29/2017 7:35:04 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline
quote:

And the DSO would say to her lover, "do you think that Jap CA is headed for us?".


One question is pertinent here.

Is the DSO stowed away as the tunnel gunner on a TBM OR is she stowed away in B-2 on the Roberts?

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 12
RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/29/2017 9:07:29 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

And the DSO would say to her lover, "do you think that Jap CA is headed for us?".


One question is pertinent here.

Is the DSO stowed away as the tunnel gunner on a TBM OR is she stowed away in B-2 on the Roberts?

Quantum theory allows for both possibilities simultaneously. Only the intervention of Ben Affleck resolves the locality.

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 13
RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/29/2017 9:51:19 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
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Actually and upon reflection neither possibility is likely since a CA of any nationality would be severely constrained as to approaching a TBM and if the DSO was in B-2 on the Roberts she would find it impossible to observe anything other than machinery (no portholes in the engineroom).

< Message edited by spence -- 10/29/2017 9:52:25 PM >

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 14
RE: OT Blood on the Sea and Other Stuff - 10/29/2017 10:04:16 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

And the DSO would say to her lover, "do you think that Jap CA is headed for us?".


One question is pertinent here.

Is the DSO stowed away as the tunnel gunner on a TBM OR is she stowed away in B-2 on the Roberts?

Quantum theory allows for both possibilities simultaneously. Only the intervention of Ben Affleck resolves the locality.
warspite1




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(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 15
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