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Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/28/2017 8:30:42 PM

RedTaurus

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From: Kasr El Nil: The bridge over denial
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Hi - I'd like to ask, is there an impact on para-troops between flying a Transport air group within the Normal Radius VS flying at the Extended Radius?

Thank you,

T

Post #: 1

RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/28/2017 8:33:17 PM

btd64

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The extended range of the aircraft only affects the aircraft. The paratroopers should have no problem....GP

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RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/28/2017 8:53:23 PM

RedTaurus

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From: Kasr El Nil: The bridge over denial
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Really? Sweet! Thanks again for the answer.

T

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RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/28/2017 9:06:29 PM

geofflambert

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From: St. Louis
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They'll be slower. Expect about half the volume of troops and supplies delivered per turn at extended range.

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Post #: 4

RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/28/2017 9:09:21 PM

geofflambert

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Everybody, does it seem odd that someone's first and second post in any Matrix forum, let alone this one, is about paratroops?

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RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/28/2017 9:34:46 PM

RedTaurus

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From: Kasr El Nil: The bridge over denial
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

They'll be slower. Expect about half the volume of troops and supplies delivered per turn at extended range.

Slower? So you are saying Extended Range does impact troop load? So to transport the para-unit you are saying I'd need double the number of PBY? In truth, that's what I was expecting. So who's right - you or General Patton?

T

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Post #: 6

RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 12:10:01 AM

geofflambert

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What GP said and what I said are not in contradiction. The range of the aircraft used affects the airborne unit (whether it's para-drop capable or simply freight between two airfields) in the following way: If the aircraft is operating in extended range it's effectiveness is roughly half. The troops it transports may be completely unaware of this fact, hence GPs answer to your query. In a similar way, if your transports did not have the range to deliver the troops/supplies those troops would simply find that they had another day to play poker or whatever.

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Post #: 7

RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 12:13:55 AM

geofflambert

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OK, we now have Red Bull's third post ever to a Matrix Forum. What are your opinions please?

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Post #: 8

RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 4:05:24 AM

Ian R

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From: Cammeraygal Country
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If you are para dropping them on an enemy base the transport aircraft can only fly to normal range, IIRC.

And the combat engineers won't get out of the plane.

As soon as the base flips you can transport rather than drop stuff, if it has at least 1 airfield level, or you are using patrol flying boats to a coastal base.

The moral of the story is don't drop paratroops on inland bases without an airfield, unless you plan to leave them there for a while.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 10/29/2017 4:11:09 AM >

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RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 6:49:16 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedTaurus

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

They'll be slower. Expect about half the volume of troops and supplies delivered per turn at extended range.

Slower? So you are saying Extended Range does impact troop load? So to transport the para-unit you are saying I'd need double the number of PBY? In truth, that's what I was expecting. So who's right - you or General Patton?

T

Read page 170 of the manual and you can then see what is correct and what isn't.

1. Dedicated transport aircraft models are not subject to the normal/extended range rules which apply to level bombers.

2. There are only two relevant range thresholds for air transport missions:

(a) up to and including normal range, troops and supplies can be dropped out of the sky, and
(b) up to 50% of the aircraft model's maximum range, troops and supplies can be air transported and landed between friendly owned airfields. Patrol aircraft can "land" on the water at a coastal base which has no built airfield.

3. When conducting an air drop, non squad type devices with a load cost greater than 7 cannot be airdropped.

4. When conducting an air transport, non squad and non engineer type devices with a load cost greater than 9 cannot be air transported.

5. Operational aircraft losses are impacted by the distance flown; the greater the distance the more likely operational aircraft losses will ensue.

Alfred

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Post #: 10

RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 8:56:09 AM

decourcy2

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Geoff, I think my first two posts were 'Who is the Gorn?' and 'What is the soft attack and hard attack of a Gorn squad?

< Message edited by decourcy2 -- 10/29/2017 8:57:05 AM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 1:36:38 PM

Ian R

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From: Cammeraygal Country
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedTaurus

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

They'll be slower. Expect about half the volume of troops and supplies delivered per turn at extended range.

Slower? So you are saying Extended Range does impact troop load? So to transport the para-unit you are saying I'd need double the number of PBY? In truth, that's what I was expecting. So who's right - you or General Patton?

T

Read page 170 of the manual and you can then see what is correct and what isn't.

1. Dedicated transport aircraft models are not subject to the normal/extended range rules which apply to level bombers.

2. There are only two relevant range thresholds for air transport missions:

(a) up to and including normal range, troops and supplies can be dropped out of the sky,

and
(b) up to 50% of the aircraft model's maximum range, troops and supplies can be air transported and landed between friendly owned airfields. Patrol aircraft can "land" on the water at a coastal base which has no built airfield.

3. When conducting an air drop, non squad type devices with a load cost greater than 7 cannot be airdropped. That would include combat engineers, right?

4. When conducting an air transport, non squad and non engineer type devices with a load cost greater than 9 cannot be air transported.

5. Operational aircraft losses are impacted by the distance flown; the greater the distance the more likely operational aircraft losses will ensue.

Alfred

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RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 2:12:49 PM

geofflambert

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So, I'm taking this to mean that transport aircraft can only function as transports within their Normal Range unless it is between two friendly airbases both within it's extended range and within 50% of it's Maximum Range. Is that why I keep getting messages about it being "Too Far"?

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RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 2:28:04 PM

Alfred

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Ian R,

Yes but ...

The engineer device (which covers both combat and non combat engineer devices) does not fall within the code definition of a "squad". As such for the purpose of being eligible for a para drop, it needs to comply with the rule which limits non squad type devices to not have a load cost greater than 7. However, a scenario designer can assign any load cost they wish. Should a scenario designer deem it appropriate they could assign a load cost of say 6 to a combat engineer device and that device would then be capable of being air dropped.

The significance of the wording in the manual is that para infantry type devices, which are squad type devices, can be air dropped even though their load cost is greater than 7. The distinguishing element for a para drop is that the unit be identified in the editor as one with the symbol #13.

Alfred

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RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 2:37:23 PM

Alfred

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Joined: 9/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

So, I'm taking this to mean that transport aircraft can only function as transports within their Normal Range unless it is between two friendly airbases both within it's extended range and within 50% of it's Maximum Range. Is that why I keep getting messages about it being "Too Far"?

Yes.

To illustrate this in practice.

The C-47 Skytrain has a normal range of 10, an extended range of 12 and a maximum range of 30. To para drop a parachute defined LCU using the C-47 you are limited to a range of anything between 1 and 10 hexes. On the other hand to air transport a LCU (where the load cost factors come into play) between two friendly airfields you are limited to a maximum distance of 15 hexes between the airfields.

Alfred

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RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 4:34:16 PM

Ian R

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From: Cammeraygal Country
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quote:

The engineer device (which covers both combat and non combat engineer devices) does not fall within the code definition of a "squad". As such for the purpose of being eligible for a para drop, it needs to comply with the rule which limits non squad type devices to not have a load cost greater than 7.

So the combat engineers do not get (into or) out of the plane on a parachute drop (in stock) (because of their assigned device load cost).

This makes perfectly good sense given that engineering officers usually have university degrees, and are smart enough to see the inherent foolhardiness in jumping out of a perfectly good airplane.

Edit - IRL, wartime drops were conducted from less than 1000ft. In the game this gets you more operational losses. I do not know if it is better for the troops to do it from there.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 10/29/2017 4:37:20 PM >

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RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 5:17:41 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

quote:

The engineer device (which covers both combat and non combat engineer devices) does not fall within the code definition of a "squad". As such for the purpose of being eligible for a para drop, it needs to comply with the rule which limits non squad type devices to not have a load cost greater than 7.

So the combat engineers do not get (into or) out of the plane on a parachute drop (in stock) (because of their assigned device load cost).

This makes perfectly good sense given that engineering officers usually have university degrees, and are smart enough to see the inherent foolhardiness in jumping out of a perfectly good airplane.

Edit - IRL, wartime drops were conducted from less than 1000ft. In the game this gets you more operational losses. I do not know if it is better for the troops to do it from there.

Japanese light AA is good to about 2000 feet, so I do drops at 3000 feet. Losing an aircraft full of troops strikes me as the likely reason for higher losses at 1000 feet.

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RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 10:38:41 PM

RedTaurus

Posts: 19
Joined: 10/28/2017
From: Kasr El Nil: The bridge over denial
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedTaurus

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

They'll be slower. Expect about half the volume of troops and supplies delivered per turn at extended range.

Slower? So you are saying Extended Range does impact troop load? So to transport the para-unit you are saying I'd need double the number of PBY? In truth, that's what I was expecting. So who's right - you or General Patton?

T

Read page 170 of the manual and you can then see what is correct and what isn't.

1. Dedicated transport aircraft models are not subject to the normal/extended range rules which apply to level bombers.

2. There are only two relevant range thresholds for air transport missions:

(a) up to and including normal range, troops and supplies can be dropped out of the sky, and
(b) up to 50% of the aircraft model's maximum range, troops and supplies can be air transported and landed between friendly owned airfields. Patrol aircraft can "land" on the water at a coastal base which has no built airfield.

3. When conducting an air drop, non squad type devices with a load cost greater than 7 cannot be airdropped.

4. When conducting an air transport, non squad and non engineer type devices with a load cost greater than 9 cannot be air transported.

5. Operational aircraft losses are impacted by the distance flown; the greater the distance the more likely operational aircraft losses will ensue.

Alfred

Thank you Alfred. So a PBY4/5 can drop paratroops at or under 15/16 hexes. Period. the Extended range does not give me a fraction of the full load. I had found that page too - but I just wanted to be clear that the Extended range was not an option.

In my game it's April 42 and I still hold Wake. I have the 2nd USMC Para Battalion coming from San Diego by TF. Eniwetok is within range of my PBY4/5 normal range at 14. But Marcus is within PBY extended range at 19. I was trying to decide which island to go after but it sounds like the decision is limited by normal range so I'll be going after Eniwetok.

I'm playing the computer on normal settings, and I'm just trying to wrap my head around all of the detail within this game. I've been reading the forum here for a few weeks. I just wanted to say I greatly appreciate you regulars that do all of the posting.

T

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RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 10:47:06 PM

RedTaurus

Posts: 19
Joined: 10/28/2017
From: Kasr El Nil: The bridge over denial
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

quote:

The engineer device (which covers both combat and non combat engineer devices) does not fall within the code definition of a "squad". As such for the purpose of being eligible for a para drop, it needs to comply with the rule which limits non squad type devices to not have a load cost greater than 7.

So the combat engineers do not get (into or) out of the plane on a parachute drop (in stock) (because of their assigned device load cost).

This makes perfectly good sense given that engineering officers usually have university degrees, and are smart enough to see the inherent foolhardiness in jumping out of a perfectly good airplane.

Edit - IRL, wartime drops were conducted from less than 1000ft. In the game this gets you more operational losses. I do not know if it is better for the troops to do it from there.

Japanese light AA is good to about 2000 feet, so I do drops at 3000 feet. Losing an aircraft full of troops strikes me as the likely reason for higher losses at 1000 feet.

Really - 3,000 ft? I was thinking I'd set my PBY at 14,000 ft. I looked up standard jump altitude and it says 12,000 ft.

T

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Post #: 19

RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/29/2017 10:57:08 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedTaurus

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

quote:

The engineer device (which covers both combat and non combat engineer devices) does not fall within the code definition of a "squad". As such for the purpose of being eligible for a para drop, it needs to comply with the rule which limits non squad type devices to not have a load cost greater than 7.

So the combat engineers do not get (into or) out of the plane on a parachute drop (in stock) (because of their assigned device load cost).

This makes perfectly good sense given that engineering officers usually have university degrees, and are smart enough to see the inherent foolhardiness in jumping out of a perfectly good airplane.

Edit - IRL, wartime drops were conducted from less than 1000ft. In the game this gets you more operational losses. I do not know if it is better for the troops to do it from there.

Japanese light AA is good to about 2000 feet, so I do drops at 3000 feet. Losing an aircraft full of troops strikes me as the likely reason for higher losses at 1000 feet.

Really - 3,000 ft? I was thinking I'd set my PBY at 14,000 ft. I looked up standard jump altitude and it says 12,000 ft.

T

I don't know how the game models it, but I have had no issues at 3000 feet. It takes something like 1200 feet for a parachute to open enough to slow down the paratrooper. I suspect there is an accuracy factor applied based on altitude (and skill of the transport pilot) which could play out in "disabled" squads if they get spread too far from the drop zone. Why have them drift down for longer than usual?
I think 12,000 feet might apply for training or heavy equipment drops, not an assault drop.

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Post #: 20

RE: Paratroops and Transport air groups - 10/30/2017 1:12:10 PM

Ian R

Posts: 3420
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From: Cammeraygal Country
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The 503rd Regiment's parachute drop on Nadzab in 1943 (an undefended target) was conducted from an altitude of 450- 500 feet*. They even dropped a battery of Australian short 25 lbrs with them. This is definitely static line drop territory. (Edit: *Wartime newsreel, so maskirovka cannot be excluded. There wasn't a whole battalion of Australians, either. It actually sounds like, at the 14 second mark, reference to "Lae" has been censored out.)

This was the first proper combat jump in SWPAC and Kenney and Mac were observing from a low flying B17.

Check out the video at this you tube link

< Message edited by Ian R -- 10/30/2017 1:18:38 PM >

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Post #: 21