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Why no Mac support ?? - 11/7/2017 8:01:30 PM   
Franciscus


Posts: 809
Joined: 12/22/2010
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		Old issue, but recurring...

Why does not Matrix consistently supports gaming on Mac ?

One can count by the fingers on one hand Matrix games that have a Mac native release: Warhammer 40.000, Order of Battle, Battle of the Bulge, Battle Academy 2....any more ?

Why ?

For instance, Field of Glory II works perfectly fine with a wine wrapper and has the potential of being a cross platform hit. Mare Nostrum was made with Unity, which is apparently easily portable to OSX.

The usual answer is that there is no market...I think the reasoning is wrong!

I wish to bring to your attention the list of the 10 most sold games on Steam: all have a Mac OSX version. The 10 most popular new games today on Steam ? Also all have a Mac OSX version !


Indie developers of fine strategy games are doing Mac versions, The most glaring example being Ultimate General Civil War. A GREAT game, certainly in my top 5 most played games. Indie developer. Mac version since release.


I will now retreat back to my corner...

< Message edited by Franciscus -- 11/7/2017 8:09:29 PM >

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RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/8/2017 5:23:53 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

Posts: 1446
Joined: 6/23/2010
Status: offline 		Mac sales are (at best) 10% of Windows sales, generally. If you have a top 10 seller on Steam then it might make sense to spend the 3-6 months doing a port (depending on your engine/UI/etc), as 10% of a lot of sales is going to make it worthwhile. For niche games the maths is much less straightforward, especially if you look at the opportunity cost of those months against work on a new PC game or DLC. So I don't think the causation in your examples goes in the direction you think . And that all ignores increased support costs (multiple platforms) etc.

You can of course build from day 1 for OSX compatibility, but then you are just front-loading the extra work anyway.

But tldr - the market has spoken.

Cheers

Pip

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Post #: 2
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/8/2017 7:49:35 PM   
Mobeer


Posts: 662
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Here is a company specialising in Mac and Linux conversions:
https://www.feralinteractive.com/en/mac-games/alphabetical/

Note how their games are all established hits on PC and often Gold editions.

(in reply to PipFromSlitherine)
Post #: 3
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/8/2017 8:34:04 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Old issue, but recurring...

Why does not Matrix consistently supports gaming on Mac ?

One can count by the fingers on one hand Matrix games that have a Mac native release: Warhammer 40.000, Order of Battle, Battle of the Bulge, Battle Academy 2....any more ?

Why ?

For instance, Field of Glory II works perfectly fine with a wine wrapper and has the potential of being a cross platform hit. Mare Nostrum was made with Unity, which is apparently easily portable to OSX.

The usual answer is that there is no market...I think the reasoning is wrong!

I wish to bring to your attention the list of the 10 most sold games on Steam: all have a Mac OSX version. The 10 most popular new games today on Steam ? Also all have a Mac OSX version !


Indie developers of fine strategy games are doing Mac versions, The most glaring example being Ultimate General Civil War. A GREAT game, certainly in my top 5 most played games. Indie developer. Mac version since release.


I will now retreat back to my corner...


In 2016 Apple accounted for only 6.9% of personal computer sales. There is virtually no money to be made when compared to the 'other' computer platform. From 2001 to 2015 Apple was in the top five, at 7.2%, only once. They make a lot of noise about how great they are but the end result speaks volumes.

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A: A stick.

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Post #: 4
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/9/2017 1:06:46 AM   
Queeg


Posts: 495
Joined: 6/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Mac sales are (at best) 10% of Windows sales, generally. If you have a top 10 seller on Steam then it might make sense to spend the 3-6 months doing a port (depending on your engine/UI/etc), as 10% of a lot of sales is going to make it worthwhile. For niche games the maths is much less straightforward, especially if you look at the opportunity cost of those months against work on a new PC game or DLC. So I don't think the causation in your examples goes in the direction you think . And that all ignores increased support costs (multiple platforms) etc.

You can of course build from day 1 for OSX compatibility, but then you are just front-loading the extra work anyway.

But tldr - the market has spoken.

Cheers

Pip


And yet so many games these days, and not just the big sellers, are coded to run on both Windows and OS X. Have you taken a look around Steam lately? I think you're a bit behind the times.

You may view the extra effort as not worth it. But many other mid-level developers seem to disagree.

EDIT: Some recent examples in genres similar to Matrix titles (not including the many Paradox titles):

Ultimate General: Civil War
Cold Waters
Heliborne
Endless Space 2
Making History: The Second World War
Making History: The Great War
Civil War: Gettysburg
Commands & Colors: The Great War
Supreme Ruler The Great War
Civil War: Battle of Petersburg
Star Traders: Frontiers
Man O' War: Corsair - Warhammer Naval Battles
Twilight Struggle
Atlantic Fleet





< Message edited by Queeg -- 11/9/2017 1:34:15 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/9/2017 1:45:23 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Isn't there a Windows emulator that allows mac users to run Windows applications?

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 6
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/10/2017 8:12:04 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

You can of course build from day 1 for OSX compatibility, but then you are just front-loading the extra work anyway.

Cheers

Pip


I assume it also might have something to do with devs used to C++ / C# and not open minded for new technologies? Nowadays it would be possible to code a game even in JavaScript and port it to Unity.

Using OS X for some years now, for me - with a bunch of Matrix titles on my account- it's also sad that your more interesting games are only available for Windows. Off course, there are emulators like Parallels but then I would have to acquire a new Windows license in addition - or purchase a Win machine just for gaming. And I'm not willing to do that.


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Post #: 7
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/10/2017 8:22:56 PM   
Franciscus


Posts: 809
Joined: 12/22/2010
From: Portugal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg

quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Mac sales are (at best) 10% of Windows sales, generally. If you have a top 10 seller on Steam then it might make sense to spend the 3-6 months doing a port (depending on your engine/UI/etc), as 10% of a lot of sales is going to make it worthwhile. For niche games the maths is much less straightforward, especially if you look at the opportunity cost of those months against work on a new PC game or DLC. So I don't think the causation in your examples goes in the direction you think . And that all ignores increased support costs (multiple platforms) etc.

You can of course build from day 1 for OSX compatibility, but then you are just front-loading the extra work anyway.

But tldr - the market has spoken.

Cheers

Pip


And yet so many games these days, and not just the big sellers, are coded to run on both Windows and OS X. Have you taken a look around Steam lately? I think you're a bit behind the times.

You may view the extra effort as not worth it. But many other mid-level developers seem to disagree.

EDIT: Some recent examples in genres similar to Matrix titles (not including the many Paradox titles):

Ultimate General: Civil War
Cold Waters
Heliborne
Endless Space 2
Making History: The Second World War
Making History: The Great War
Civil War: Gettysburg
Commands & Colors: The Great War
Supreme Ruler The Great War
Civil War: Battle of Petersburg
Star Traders: Frontiers
Man O' War: Corsair - Warhammer Naval Battles
Twilight Struggle
Atlantic Fleet







Exactly. If other developers, even indie and niche-level ones are doing Mac games, they must have a reason. I would even suppose that while the average gamer is a windows gamer, more and more people that want “serious” or different games are Mac users...

And then, why Matrix chooses to release SOME games on Mac ? If the reasoning they present is valid launching games for Mac would be a waste of resources...

Regards

< Message edited by Franciscus -- 11/10/2017 8:24:22 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/10/2017 9:17:18 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

more and more people that want “serious” or different games are Mac users...






Apple elitism is alive and well.

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to Franciscus)
Post #: 9
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/10/2017 9:39:56 PM   
Franciscus


Posts: 809
Joined: 12/22/2010
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		Please, it was not my intention to turn this thread into a usual Mac vs Windows thrashing.

I use both systems, because I have to. I have Windows installed in my personal Mac, and all PCs on my workplace use Windows.

I very much prefer to use OSX instead of Windows, but to each its own.

I would simply like that more games that I enjoy would be released for Mac.

Regards

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Former AJE team member

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Post #: 10
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/10/2017 10:10:20 PM   
berto


Posts: 20708
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Old issue, but recurring...

Why does not Matrix consistently supports gaming on Mac ?

...

Why ?

In our case, it is a question of both time and economics. It in no way pays to port the (old, C++) Campaign Series code to the Mac. (Entirely new games are a different matter.) If Matrix were to enforce a policy mandating Mac support, it would put us out of business. Simple as that.

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Post #: 11
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/10/2017 11:10:36 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

more and more people that want “serious” or different games are Mac users...






Apple elitism is alive and well.


No elitism. I need a unix-based OS for my web development, which means either Linux or OSX. Apple provides it along with nice hardware and everything working out-of-the-box.

Windows is just good for gaming.

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Post #: 12
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/11/2017 5:09:40 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg
You may view the extra effort as not worth it. But many other mid-level developers seem to disagree.

Let's see how many of those other developers are around in five years--I bet that Matrix will be.

Whatever the perceived advantages of Macs, a wide choice for wargaming is not one of them--never has been, probably never will be.

(in reply to Queeg)
Post #: 13
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/11/2017 9:49:00 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Why does not Matrix consistently supports gaming on Mac ?




When Agatha Christie wrote books, Collins were the publishers. Christie writes and Collins publishers. Two separate roles.

When a developer develops a game he is the developer and Matrix is the publisher. Two separate roles.

It is true that the two talk to each other from the very start and it is likely that with the experience of Matrix they have a bit of input but they don't write the book.

So your question is inaccurate. You should be asking why few developers choose Mac for their platform.

.












(in reply to Franciscus)
Post #: 14
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/11/2017 10:17:24 AM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline
quote:

You should be asking why few developers choose Mac for their platform.


because it's not financially viable and not worth extra effort for the returns, plus most don't have the support base for a none pc / windows based support.

the numbers have always spoken for themselves, if you wish to do A, buy B if you wish to play games, buy a pc, or if you after a cheap high end 4k on the cheap for gaming, an Xbox One X which retails at $499, which is tbh a great price and pc in a box running windows 10, which you won't be able to match or beat atm for price in pure pc parts either. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One_system_software


< Message edited by zakblood -- 11/11/2017 10:20:36 AM >

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Post #: 15
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/11/2017 10:19:46 AM   
Franciscus


Posts: 809
Joined: 12/22/2010
From: Portugal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Why does not Matrix consistently supports gaming on Mac ?




When Agatha Christie wrote books, Collins were the publishers. Christie writes and Collins publishers. Two separate roles.

When a developer develops a game he is the developer and Matrix is the publisher. Two separate roles.

It is true that the two talk to each other from the very start and it is likely that with the experience of Matrix they have a bit of input but they don't write the book.

So your question is inaccurate. You should be asking why few developers choose Mac for their platform.





You are right, although Slitherine/Matrix has more than an opinion about how the developers should do (I know), and it develops internally some games.

So, then, I ask: Why The Aristocrats release Order of Battle and Slitherine releases Battle Academy, both for Mac, but Fury Software does not make a Mac version of SC3. Just examples.

Regards

< Message edited by Franciscus -- 11/11/2017 10:21:54 AM >

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RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/11/2017 3:13:43 PM   
Crossroads


Posts: 17372
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Isn't there a Windows emulator that allows mac users to run Windows applications?


Yes, Wine for example. I've tried it with a couple of titles, mostly out of curiosity. The results varied a bit.

At the end, I see no need to be gaming with my MacBook, I've got the gaming desktop for that. So at the end did not really try Wine besides kicking its proverbial tires and going for a quick drive around the block.

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RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 11/11/2017 9:57:33 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus


So, then, I ask: Why The Aristocrats release Order of Battle and Slitherine releases Battle Academy, both for Mac, but Fury Software does not make a Mac version of SC3. Just examples.

Regards



Firstly its a free world so they can do what they want.

Secondly if you like or dislike an Agatha Christie book you need to ask on the Agatha Christie forum. There is no point asking on the publisher's forum.

.



(in reply to Franciscus)
Post #: 18
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 12/1/2017 2:07:53 AM   
Franciscus


Posts: 809
Joined: 12/22/2010
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		Dominions 5 was released this week on Steam.

Mac version available from day one.

Just saying...

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RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 12/1/2017 3:04:40 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

quote:

You should be asking why few developers choose Mac for their platform.


because it's not financially viable and not worth extra effort for the returns, plus most don't have the support base for a none pc / windows based support.

the numbers have always spoken for themselves, if you wish to do A, buy B if you wish to play games, buy a pc, or if you after a cheap high end 4k on the cheap for gaming, an Xbox One X which retails at $499, which is tbh a great price and pc in a box running windows 10, which you won't be able to match or beat atm for price in pure pc parts either. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One_system_software


This.

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RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 12/1/2017 3:53:47 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline 		Yeah, I was gonna say also that wargaming is a niche genre; not like some of the AAA titles on Steam. Pip has the figures I'm sure from their database and 10% sounds about right. Just not enough MAC wargamers out there.

Long Live the PC versions of wargames

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 12/1/2017 3:54:25 AM >

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Post #: 21
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 12/1/2017 9:25:35 AM   
IainMcNeil


Posts: 2804
Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: offline 		Developing for mac is one thing. Supporting Mac is another. We work very differently as we release many patches for many years after release. Most main stream devs release a couple of patches and they move on to the next game. The load this puts on us is huge as each patch requires implementation and testing on each platform. As a result over time the cost of supporting Mac balloons.

Sadly its just not economically viable. We've tried internally, outsourcing, and every way ends up being too much of a drain on resources. We've pretty much given up on Mac :(

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Post #: 22
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 12/1/2017 9:26:27 AM   
IainMcNeil


Posts: 2804
Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Dominions 5 was released this week on Steam.

Mac version available from day one.

Just saying...


This doesn't mean it was a good idea :)

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Director
Matrix Games

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Post #: 23
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 12/1/2017 12:54:30 PM   
rico21


Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
Status: offline 		All my friends who have a Mac are workaholics who are wondering how to spend time playing wargames.
I answer them invariably;
"You are badly organized!"

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Post #: 24
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 12/1/2017 4:07:58 PM   
Franciscus


Posts: 809
Joined: 12/22/2010
From: Portugal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IainMcNeil

Developing for mac is one thing. Supporting Mac is another. We work very differently as we release many patches for many years after release. Most main stream devs release a couple of patches and they move on to the next game. The load this puts on us is huge as each patch requires implementation and testing on each platform. As a result over time the cost of supporting Mac balloons.

Sadly its just not economically viable. We've tried internally, outsourcing, and every way ends up being too much of a drain on resources. We've pretty much given up on Mac :(



Thank you, Iain, to take the time to post.

Fair enough, you couldn't be clearer. I rest my case...

Best regards

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Post #: 25
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 12/1/2017 5:18:59 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IainMcNeil


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Dominions 5 was released this week on Steam.

Mac version available from day one.

Just saying...


This doesn't mean it was a good idea :)


Haha; Iain has an answer for everything

(in reply to IainMcNeil)
Post #: 26
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 12/1/2017 5:54:18 PM   
rico21


Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


quote:

ORIGINAL: IainMcNeil


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Dominions 5 was released this week on Steam.

Mac version available from day one.

Just saying...


This doesn't mean it was a good idea :)


Haha; Iain has an answer for everything

Haha; AAA... has everything for an answer

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 27
RE: Why no Mac support ?? - 12/1/2017 6:11:19 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


quote:

ORIGINAL: IainMcNeil


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Dominions 5 was released this week on Steam.

Mac version available from day one.

Just saying...


This doesn't mean it was a good idea :)


Haha; Iain has an answer for everything

Haha; AAA... has everything for an answer


haha Rico has for everything an answer.

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 28
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