Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

Agreed, I am following an unusual strategy. But I feel this is the best way to win as Soviet when playing against
a capable experienced Axis player.

As we are playing the 'Sudden Death' campaign scenario I can't just keep retreating to the Urals, because as soon
as Tyronec reaches 260 victory points he immediately wins a decisive Axis victory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

GT 9 Air loses

Another 66 Messerschmitt fighters were lost by the Luftwaffe during GT 9.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

GT 9 Air loses

Another 66 Messerschmitt fighters were lost by the Luftwaffe during GT 9.

For any wishing to combat the Russian Air hordes (I normally run 2 strong air fronts and one weak one where I'm not pushing hard)

These are just things I would do (and have done) against a Soviet aggressive bomber. If you are going to follow this you have to only use the fighters for protection of your Airbases first and foremost(a few ground support missions are ok but don't move your airbase off the railheads to do so) No CAP missions to draw out the Russians, no bombing of Russian Airfields, no nothing until a set time in the future(it will be easy to see when to do these things because many Soviet players are over zealous with their aircraft). But first we need to do a few things. First no fighters will be on an airbase beyond the furthest most rail head(if you aren't in range of the front then oh well) This will be our Forward Airbase and should have 2~3 squadrons on an the air base and 2 airbases and an Air HQ with flak(I won't get into the flak qtys) on that forward railhead. You will then put another 2 airbases 5 hexes behind the forward airbase with 2-3 squadrons on the airbase and an Air HQ with flak. Make sure to be within 5 hexes for supporting flak. (have two empty airbase in this area to move forward when railhead moves) THEN 10-15 hex (keep in mind 109 range to support forward Airbases on railhead) behind the forward most Airbase on railhead, and place on a rail, you will place the rear 2 airbases with 4-6 air squadrons per airbase and Air HQ with Flak. (Try to place the airbases where a Russian unit has to fly over the first set of airbases to get to the airbases 10-15 behind. This way they will get attacked on the way by flak to the remote airbases by flying over or close to the first set of airbases. (at least that is what I have seen many many many times)). Now place one free airbase with "no" fighters on it on a rail directly behind the last airbase. Then place another free airbase behind that one and make sure it is free with no aircraft. These airbases will be used to rotate fighters from front to rear with air transfer when needed. This is a brief writeup but should give you an idea what is going on here. You can even set up two fronts airbases close to have a huge field of AA fire and fighters support. Good luck.

Start off with ~125-200% and 40-45% to fly. Adjust accordingly. This will fluctuate based on what I see against me and what happened the previous turn.


Remember that if you are going to use this then any and all missions should stop that is using the fighters. Any fighter with fatigue over 9 needs to either go to reserve (over 18+ fatigue to reserve) or to the rear to a rear base the 10-15 hex (on rail) from the forward Air base to rest. Until we can get most of our fighter rested and refined let the Soviets run with their bombing. Because once your ground units are in an entrenchment of +1 or better the bombers really don't do much.

Good luck and there is a great deal more to this than just a quick write up with many different mitigating circumstances. Use this at your own pearl since I understand my own madness but hard to put into words for others to follow. Ask any questions you may have.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

On Game Turn 9 the air war continued West of Moscow.

I noted that when conducting air recon missions near Tyronec's airbases that his fighters did not try to intercept,
which probably meant he had interception off. Launched large bombing missions on all his airbases. In one mission
15 fighters were lost by the Luftwaffe for the loss of 37 Soviet bombers.

quote:

Day or night bombing? I read on multiple different times that you were only flying day missions. So which was this, day or night?

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

GT 9 Air loses

Another 66 Messerschmitt fighters were lost by the Luftwaffe during GT 9.

For any wishing to combat the Russian Air hordes (I normally run 2 strong air fronts and one weak one where I'm not pushing hard)

These are just things I would do (and have done) against a Soviet aggressive bomber. If you are going to follow this you have to only use the fighters for protection of your Airbases first and foremost(a few ground support missions are ok but don't move your airbase off the railheads to do so) No CAP missions to draw out the Russians, no bombing of Russian Airfields, no nothing until a set time in the future(it will be easy to see when to do these things because many Soviet players are over zealous with their aircraft). But first we need to do a few things. First no fighters will be on an airbase beyond the furthest most rail head(if you aren't in range of the front then oh well) This will be our Forward Airbase and should have 2~3 squadrons on an the air base and 2 airbases and an Air HQ with flak(I won't get into the flak qtys) on that forward railhead. You will then put another 2 airbases 5 hexes behind the forward airbase with 2-3 squadrons on the airbase and an Air HQ with flak. Make sure to be within 5 hexes for supporting flak. (have two empty airbase in this area to move forward when railhead moves) THEN 10-15 hex (keep in mind 109 range to support forward Airbases on railhead) behind the forward most Airbase on railhead, and place on a rail, you will place the rear 2 airbases with 4-6 air squadrons per airbase and Air HQ with Flak. (Try to place the airbases where a Russian unit has to fly over the first set of airbases to get to the airbases 10-15 behind. This way they will get attacked on the way by flak to the remote airbases by flying over or close to the first set of airbases. (at least that is what I have seen many many many times)). Now place one free airbase with "no" fighters on it on a rail directly behind the last airbase. Then place another free airbase behind that one and make sure it is free with no aircraft. These airbases will be used to rotate fighters from front to rear with air transfer when needed. This is a brief writeup but should give you an idea what is going on here. You can even set up two fronts airbases close to have a huge field of AA fire and fighters support. Good luck.

Start off with ~125-200% and 40-45% to fly. Adjust accordingly. This will fluctuate based on what I see against me and what happened the previous turn.


Remember that if you are going to use this then any and all missions should stop that is using the fighters. Any fighter with fatigue over 9 needs to either go to reserve (over 18+ fatigue to reserve) or to the rear to a rear base the 10-15 hex (on rail) from the forward Air base to rest. Until we can get most of our fighter rested and refined let the Soviets run with their bombing. Because once your ground units are in an entrenchment of +1 or better the bombers really don't do much.

Good luck and there is a great deal more to this than just a quick write up with many different mitigating circumstances. Use this at your own pearl since I understand my own madness but hard to put into words for others to follow. Ask any questions you may have.

This is just to get control back. Once control of the skies in the area you want it in is back in German hands then these missions will branch out.

There are a ton of other things that need to be done and understood which I don't have the time to get into. I'm already late to my pillow for some sleep.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

Day or night bombing? I read on multiple different times that you were only flying day missions. So which was this, day or night?

Grognard was not flying night bombing before T8, he is now. Also the game is running one turn ahead of the AAR, next turn my 109s are daytime only.
Some interesting advice above, will read and absorb. My tactics for the past few turns has been to attack the Soviet air force where they are weak, stay out of fighter range where they are strong and only bomb ground units where they have no fighter cover.

quote:

This is just to get control back. Once control of the skies in the area you want it in is back in German hands then these missions will branch out.

There are a ton of other things that need to be done and understood which I don't have the time to get into. I'm already late to my pillow for some sleep.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 11/27/2017 5:12:34 AM >

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

quote:

This is just to get control back. Once control of the skies in the area you want it in is back in German hands then these missions will branch out.

There are a ton of other things that need to be done and understood which I don't have the time to get into. I'm already late to my pillow for some sleep.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 11/27/2017 5:12:34 AM >

I didn't know that aircraft are shot by AA guns in a hex they cross/fly nearby, even if the hex attacked is somewhere else, this allows some interesting flak defense patterns. Thank you for this info!

If I get you right your set up is against aggressive soviet players. What are you doing if the soviet player is aggressive all the time in 1941 (he has enough level bombers to be so). If I understand you right this would result in the German air force being in permanent self defence mode, hardly flying any bombing or ground support missions, and leaving the front line units without fighter cover in many cases. For any mission flown by the fighters will leave them with their pants down.
The only way the Germans can survive in the air AND give a reasonable amount of ground support is by concentrating all air power on 1 or 2 fronts.


IMO this is way off how the air war in 1941 should look&that was the point I believe Dinglir tried to make in the "early air war" thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

quote:

This is just to get control back. Once control of the skies in the area you want it in is back in German hands then these missions will branch out.

There are a ton of other things that need to be done and understood which I don't have the time to get into. I'm already late to my pillow for some sleep.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 11/27/2017 5:12:34 AM >

I didn't know that aircraft are shot by AA guns in a hex they cross/fly nearby, even if the hex attacked is somewhere else, this allows some interesting flak defense patterns. Thank you for this info!

If I get you right your set up is against aggressive soviet players. What are you doing if the soviet player is aggressive all the time in 1941 (he has enough level bombers to be so). If I understand you right this would result in the German air force being in permanent self defence mode, hardly flying any bombing or ground support missions, and leaving the front line units without fighter cover in many cases. For any mission flown by the fighters will leave them with their pants down.
The only way the Germans can survive in the air AND give a reasonable amount of ground support is by concentrating all air power on 1 or 2 fronts.


IMO this is way off how the air war in 1941 should look&that was the point I believe Dinglir tried to make in the "early air war" thread.

Item 1. On the Flak I have noticed fly over specific areas with flak causes casualties on many occasions. Set up a test bed so you can best try this out. For instance take the Russian bombers and fly over said flak to a destination that has no flak around it. You will notice that you will take flak casualties. It is random so you will have to run it a few times.

Item 2. Concentration in 2 fronts is what I do. (you fly where it "IS" needed & most of the time people abuse the airforce imho.

Item 3. The root of the problem is how many aircraft are given to the Soviet to play with. Plus in these two games the German players are behind the power curve in the Air war now. If they started turn one they would own the skies in two areas they want & would replicate history if that is what you are looking for. IMHO get rid of ~70-80% of old bombers and old fighter airplanes the Russians have.

quote:


Item 1. On the Flak I have noticed fly over specific areas with flak causes casualties on many occasions. Set up a test bed so you can best try this out. For instance take the Russian bombers and fly over said flak to a destination that has no flak around it. You will notice that you will take flak casualties. It is random so you will have to run it a few times.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist


IMO this is way off how the air war in 1941 should look&that was the point I believe Dinglir tried to make in the "early air war" thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:


Item 1. On the Flak I have noticed fly over specific areas with flak causes casualties on many occasions. Set up a test bed so you can best try this out. For instance take the Russian bombers and fly over said flak to a destination that has no flak around it. You will notice that you will take flak casualties. It is random so you will have to run it a few times.

A word of caution is needed over how the test is set up. Almost all units do have organic flak in their ToEs, so even if there are no flak SUs there will still be flak in the battle. So ground bombing cannot be used for instance. And flak does operate at a target a number of hexes from its base unit. So it is actually very difficult to find any bombing target on the map which is not covered by flak in some way.

In real life anti aircraft defences often comprised of interception, barrage balloon and flak zones on the route to the target. So WitE, as described in the manual, is flawed by only considering air missions as resolved at the target. If this observation is correct it would be welcomed and should be documented!

quote:


Item 2. Concentration in 2 fronts is what I do. (you fly where it "IS" needed & most of the time people abuse the airforce imho.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

quote:


Item 2. Concentration in 2 fronts is what I do. (you fly where it "IS" needed & most of the time people abuse the airforce imho.

I am pretty much on line with you that in this case you can deliver ground support and preserve your fighter arm. My understanding always has been that you were talking about a 3 front air force deployment, if I set all the variables on "2 front deployment" I agree with most of your statements.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
must resist the temptation....)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
must resist the temptation....)

Deploy the needles!

quote:

@HardLuck: Item 1. On the Flak I have noticed fly over specific areas with flak causes casualties on many occasions. Set up a test bed so you can best try this out. For instance take the Russian bombers and fly over said flak to a destination that has no flak around it. You will notice that you will take flak casualties. It is random so you will have to run it a few times.

quote:

@EvK: I am pretty much on line with you that in this case you can deliver ground support and preserve your fighter arm. My understanding always has been that you were talking about a 3 front air force deployment, if I set all the variables on "2 front deployment" I agree with most of your statements.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

@HardLuck: Item 1. On the Flak I have noticed fly over specific areas with flak causes casualties on many occasions. Set up a test bed so you can best try this out. For instance take the Russian bombers and fly over said flak to a destination that has no flak around it. You will notice that you will take flak casualties. It is random so you will have to run it a few times.

I set up a test bed where a batch of infantry was bombed:
a. flying over a couple of Pz armies.
b. flying over infantry only.
The result was:
a. stacks light and some heavy AA. About 15 planes lost per mission.
b. no AA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

Agreed, I am following an unusual strategy. But I feel this is the best way to win as Soviet when playing against
a capable experienced Axis player.

As we are playing the 'Sudden Death' campaign scenario I can't just keep retreating to the Urals, because as soon
as Tyronec reaches 260 victory points he immediately wins a decisive Axis victory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

AGC.
North of the city we attack with 9th Army (the green one) and get across the canal.
South, 4th Army (blue) storm the Mosvka and do a second deliberate attack to clear two hexes, a couple of Panzer divisions follow up. Have used almost no armour this turn so am well set up for T11.