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Vichy or No Vichy - 11/14/2017 11:06:18 PM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Someone else already posted this in another thread, but I think it deserves one of its own. As KorutZelva and others have pointed out there are a significant number of disadvantages and very few advantages to the Axis not creating Vichy France. Does everyone agree, or am I missing something?
Post #: 1
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 12:51:05 AM   
DeriKuk


Posts: 359
Joined: 8/2/2005
From: Alberta
Status: offline 		I agree.

One "mistake" I made was to have the Germans conquer continental France, and having the Italians going after the colonial French territories, notably Tunisia and Algeria. It works, but GREAT CARE must be taken to NOT have an Italian enter the new "French" capital of Algiers. That has to be done by a German unit ... else the entire France will become Italian (without a single Italian unit having entered continental France) - as weird as that may be in anything approaching historical possibilities. The result of this "mistake" is that Germany will be starved of MPPs with which to conduct operations like Barbarossa, and the Italians will soon run out of things to build.

I had title the subject "Rich Italy; Starving Germany" or something like that. It failed to garner any real discussion or consideration, and it appears that there is not much interest in applying the fixes I had suggested. ... moving on to other things.

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 2
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 1:11:54 AM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2055
Joined: 11/30/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Someone else already posted this in another thread, but I think it deserves one of its own. As KorutZelva and others have pointed out there are a significant number of disadvantages and very few advantages to the Axis not creating Vichy France. Does everyone agree, or am I missing something?


This seems right to me. Spanish war entry is a huge advantage to the All of France strategy though is it not?

_____________________________

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(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 3
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 1:16:09 AM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2055
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeriKuk

I agree.

One "mistake" I made was to have the Germans conquer continental France, and having the Italians going after the colonial French territories, notably Tunisia and Algeria. It works, but GREAT CARE must be taken to NOT have an Italian enter the new "French" capital of Algiers. That has to be done by a German unit ... else the entire France will become Italian (without a single Italian unit having entered continental France) - as weird as that may be in anything approaching historical possibilities. The result of this "mistake" is that Germany will be starved of MPPs with which to conduct operations like Barbarossa, and the Italians will soon run out of things to build.

I had title the subject "Rich Italy; Starving Germany" or something like that. It failed to garner any real discussion or consideration, and it appears that there is not much interest in applying the fixes I had suggested. ... moving on to other things.


I remember the thread, but if memory serves correct it involved mechanisms that may exist in another game?

_____________________________

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(in reply to DeriKuk)
Post #: 4
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 1:28:02 AM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline 		You can still get the decision via conquering Vichy Algeria IIRC. Which is probably easier.

On top of that, in both cases it doesn't guarantee Spain instantly because the UK can easily garrison Casablanca before Algiers falls.

The main draw, as it is now, is the two free battleships from avoiding mers el kebir. You can still avoid mers el kebir with Vichy by declaring war on Vichy algeria before it happens but about half the time it happens right after france falls before the Axis have their turn. So technically the only real advantage right now to go full france is preventing the french ship to be sunk.

< Message edited by KorutZelva -- 11/15/2017 1:32:49 AM >

(in reply to crispy131313)
Post #: 5
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 1:52:39 AM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		If I understand it correctly the main differences between accepting Vichy and not are:

1. If you accept Vichy the Axis gain an immediate award of conquest MPPs; but if you don't you don't get the MPPs until you capture Algiers. If so, do you get a larger award of MPPS then if you had accepted Vichy?

2. If you accept Vichy you will collect MPPS each turn thereafter but for only Non-Vichy France. Whereas if you don't accept Vichy and go on to conquer Mainland France, Tunisia and Algieria you will gain more MPPs per turn.

3. If you accept Vichy it will then be easier to DOW and then conquer Tunisia and Algeria. The only negative being increased US mobilization.

Have I missed anything?

In two of my recent games I have intercepted an Italian transport apparently on its way to Algiers before Paris is captured. Not quite sure what its game plan was. I had not vacated Algiers and capturing it with a single corps seems rather unlikely. Can anyone tell me what the ploy is here?

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 6
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 2:27:25 AM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		regarding #3 There is no US mobilization bonus.

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(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 7
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 3:05:35 AM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

regarding #3 There is no US mobilization bonus.


Really!! So the Axis can sign a peace treaty with France guaranteeing Vichy sovereignty and then a few turns later DOW Algeria without the US getting the least bit upset.

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 8
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 4:16:47 AM   
Zecke


Posts: 1330
Joined: 1/15/2005
From: Hitoeton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DeriKuk

I agree.

One "mistake" I made was to have the Germans conquer continental France, and having the Italians going after the colonial French territories, notably Tunisia and Algeria. It works, but GREAT CARE must be taken to NOT have an Italian enter the new "French" capital of Algiers. That has to be done by a German unit ... else the entire France will become Italian (without a single Italian unit having entered continental France) - as weird as that may be in anything approaching historical possibilities. The result of this "mistake" is that Germany will be starved of MPPs with which to conduct operations like Barbarossa, and the Italians will soon run out of things to build.

I had title the subject "Rich Italy; Starving Germany" or something like that. It failed to garner any real discussion or consideration, and it appears that there is not much interest in applying the fixes I had suggested. ... moving on to other things.


Not bad..

What i do with Italy is accumulate as much posible Mpps; and spend only in armored división to take part in Barbarrosa and also build as much as i can battleships earlier..thats all; and of course VICHY YES to run quikly to the russian border

(in reply to DeriKuk)
Post #: 9
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 8:43:52 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		What happens if you take VICHY YES and there are Axis units already in Algeria and Tunisia, and maybe even Syria ?

(in reply to Zecke)
Post #: 10
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 9:13:42 AM   
Zecke


Posts: 1330
Joined: 1/15/2005
From: Hitoeton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

What happens if you take VICHY YES and there are Axis units already in Algeria and Tunisia, and maybe even Syria ?


not sure¡...because i dont play a long time ago; but i light remember that a) they dissapear b) they withdraw to your territorys

BUT i dont remenber this problem....what the problem suppose to you i mean you can not take vichy yes?

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 11
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 9:29:52 AM   
Zecke


Posts: 1330
Joined: 1/15/2005
From: Hitoeton
Status: offline 		What i do (if my memory dont make me wrong) is

VICHY YES

THEN RUSSIA

THEN DECLARE WAR ON VICHY and take it; if possible

(in reply to Zecke)
Post #: 12
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 9:38:16 AM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

regarding #3 There is no US mobilization bonus.


There's a couple of % in the USSR one though.

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Post #: 13
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 9:39:20 AM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

What happens if you take VICHY YES and there are Axis units already in Algeria and Tunisia, and maybe even Syria ?


They are just booted to the closest Axis land.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 14
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 12:00:57 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva


quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

regarding #3 There is no US mobilization bonus.


There's a couple of % in the USSR one though.


I never saw a message alluding to that.
If the USSR mobilization went up I didn't notice it.


_____________________________

"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 15
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 12:14:23 PM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline 		There's a tiny USSR bump from each Axis declaration of war to minors. There's no pop-up for those. Yugo and other countries of interests have a bigger bump (10% or over). They might or might not have an accompanying pop-up (Ex: Lithuania has one, Latvia and Estonia don't).

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 16
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 12:42:30 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

regarding #3 There is no US mobilization bonus.


Though IIRC there is if the Axis declare war on mainland Vichy?

I'm used to another WW2 grand strategy game, where if the Axis declared war on any of the non-mainland Vichy states, then all joined the allies at once, which certainly makes the Axis think twice before doing this... It allowed the allies to declare war on Syria alone without activating the other Vichy states, though.

BTW does anyone (as the Allies) bother invading Vichy Syria, as actually happened in WW2? AFAIK there are no DEs relating to this and not much incentive to do so.

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 17
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 7:29:59 PM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I would appreciate it if the Developers could weigh in on this with answers to the following questions:

1.Are there increases to US and/or USSR mobilization if the Axis DOW Vichy, Algeria, Tunisia or Syria?
2.Are there increases to US and/or USSR mobilization if the Axis DOW Yugoslavia (obviously prior to the UK saying YES to DE104).

(in reply to OxfordGuy3)
Post #: 18
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 8:57:37 PM   
nnason


Posts: 502
Joined: 3/4/2016
From: Washington DC Metro Area
Status: offline 		I can say with certainty that USA will join (sept in my case) if attack Vichy, Tunis and Syria.

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Noah Nason
LTC Field Artillery
US Army Retired

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 19
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 9:15:32 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		There is little reason to attack Vichy propper until after the USA is in.

_____________________________

"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

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Post #: 20
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/15/2017 9:30:54 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Every DoW might have a (random) impact on war readiness or leaning, but there are even "spheres of influence": SU doesn't like any DoW on Yugoslavia (panslavism), US on Ireland, Finnland on Sweden, the Turks on Syria and Irak.

Vichy itself has got no special friends, but will severe all relationships with the Axis after DoWs against Tunesia and Algeria. There`s also a DE related to allied landings in France, followed by "Unternehmen Anton".

As Axis I try to avoid any unnecessary DoW until SU and US joined, p.e. against Belgium (they will join the Allies after the DoW on the Netherlands next turn); allthough it causes some tactical disadvantage.

(in reply to nnason)
Post #: 21
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/16/2017 11:33:08 AM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		Given the current situation with Vichy and observing it currently first hand...
I'm beginning to think that there is no good reason for the UK not to use the DE to go after Vichy Fleet; ever. Sure it brings Vichy and the territories closer to the Axis. Are Germany and Italy really going to use Diplo chits on them? Particularly given the number that would be required?

_____________________________

"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 22
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/16/2017 11:48:42 AM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline 		They should make it that having Vichy diplo joins gifts you its colonies to give mers el kebir a drawback that is a slightly more risky.

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 23
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/16/2017 6:51:16 PM   
waclaw

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 11/7/2017
Status: offline 		Events from Campaigns\_1939 Storm over Europe\Scripts\Events\mobilization_1.txt 

; Axis Declare War on Vichy France resulting in a
; random 8-15% increase in US mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Vichy France resulting in a
; random 3-5% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Vichy France resulting in a
; random 10-15% increase in Swiss mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Vichy France resulting in a
; random 25-45% increase in Vichy Algeria mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Vichy France resulting in a
; random 25-45% increase in Tunisia mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Vichy France resulting in a
; random 25-45% increase in Syria mobilization towards Allies:



; Axis Declare War on Syria resulting in a
; random 8-15% increase in US mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Syria resulting in a
; random 10-15% increase in Persian mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Syria resulting in a
; random 35-45% increase in Turkish mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Syria resulting in a
; random 20-35% increase in Algeria mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Syria resulting in a
; random 20-35% increase in Tunisia mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Syria resulting in a
; random 20-35% increase in Vichy France mobilization towards Allies:



; Axis Declare War on Tunisia resulting in a
; random 20-35% increase in Algeria mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Tunisia resulting in a
; random 20-35% increase in Vichy France mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Tunisia resulting in a
; random 20-35% increase in Syrian mobilization towards Allies:



; Axis Declare War on Algeria resulting in an
; 10-15% increase in Vichy France's mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Algeria resulting in an
; 10-15% increase in Tunisia's mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Algeria resulting in a
; random 20-35% increase in Syria mobilization towards Allies:


< Message edited by waclaw -- 11/16/2017 7:01:03 PM >

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 24
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/16/2017 11:16:07 PM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Every DoW might have a (random) impact on war readiness or leaning, but there are even "spheres of influence": SU doesn't like any DoW on Yugoslavia (panslavism), US on Ireland, Finnland on Sweden, the Turks on Syria and Irak.

Vichy itself has got no special friends, but will severe all relationships with the Axis after DoWs against Tunesia and Algeria. There`s also a DE related to allied landings in France, followed by "Unternehmen Anton".

As Axis I try to avoid any unnecessary DoW until SU and US joined, p.e. against Belgium (they will join the Allies after the DoW on the Netherlands next turn); allthough it causes some tactical disadvantage.


If The UK supports the coup in Yugoslavia such that it joins the Allies, I assume this does not cause any increase in Russian or US mobilization. Is that right?

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 25
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/16/2017 11:26:09 PM   
KorutZelva

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 2/4/2017
Status: offline 		it doesn't but the greeks gets pushed to around 80% (new defensive pact with UK something, something)

===
Axis Declare War on Vichy France resulting in a
; random 3-5% increase in Spanish mobilization towards Allies:
--
; Axis Declare War on Vichy France resulting in a
; random 10-15% increase in Swiss mobilization towards Allies:
===

These two don't have a 100% chance of happening. Like 20% or something.

< Message edited by KorutZelva -- 11/16/2017 11:27:18 PM >

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 26
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/17/2017 9:51:08 PM   
johanssb

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 1/2/2012
Status: offline 		If you take Algiers and Paris on the same turn then you get all of France. No need to create Vichy or declare war on Vichy later. Also, you will most likely get Spain to join Axis as well.

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 27
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/17/2017 11:18:47 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Do you have to get Paris and Algiers on the same turn ? I don't think so because in my current game I took Algiers well before Paris. When I did get Paris later the capital moved to Bordeaux for two turns before France surrendered, and there was no Vichy. So it looks like you can get Algiers before Paris.

(in reply to johanssb)
Post #: 28
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/17/2017 11:44:21 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		As long as the frenchmen have got an alternate capital and their NM is bigger 0, occupying Paris and Algier in the same turn doesn`t lead necessarily to french surrender afaik.

The opportunity to invite Franco depends on a free Casablanca; if UK (or any Ally) places a unit overthere, the DE won`t trigger (and at least requires a 30% leaning of Spain).

The safest way to secure Spain is therefore to create Vichy and influence Spain asap. You`ll have to invest in every case into diplo, since Spains leaning won`t be much higher than 30% after the fall of France, and every hit of the Brits leads therefore to the DE not happening. It will also take some time to get from Algier to Casablanca, and a fast victory there is not guaranteed.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 29
RE: Vichy or No Vichy - 11/18/2017 2:29:49 PM   
johanssb

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 1/2/2012
Status: offline 		It works best if its on the same turn. Of course there is a chance that the capital will move to Bordeaux, but generally the French NM is too low for that.

How many Allied players garrison Casablanca ? If they haven't then you've got all of France and Spain joins the Axis without spending anything on diplo. You can also then transport units into Syria behind the Brits, on the next turn.

It's a sneak attack, not exactly a safe bet, but very satisfying when it works.


(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 30
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