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Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 3:03:03 AM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Does anyone have experience with this scenario? The PO is Soviet so I would think it is a great single player game as Axis. There are a few different eastern front scenarios but given the PO is scripted well for Soviets I would think it a superior choice as Axis single player.
Post #: 1
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 3:25:58 AM   
jzardos


Posts: 662
Joined: 3/15/2011
Status: offline 		I would possibly be interested in axis in Directive 21. Need to get a bit more familiar with the game mechanics. Never played TOAW.

(in reply to spinecruncher)
Post #: 2
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 3:35:52 AM   
Meyer1

 

Posts: 899
Joined: 2/9/2010
Status: offline 		D21 sure it's a great scenario, but definitely NOT recommended for beginners. It's on the big side of the scale.

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Post #: 3
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 4:37:54 AM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I have just been sampling several diff scenarios to get some flavour. So I also fired up Poland as allied and it took about an hour for Axis turn 1. I can imagine then how long Samsung Galaxy PO move would take in Dir 21. are there any preferences to set to help the PO turns proceed more rapidly? There are supposed to be 10 rounds I know but in the Poland scenario following each combat exchange the game paused for me to check the box. Can that be bypassed?

(in reply to Meyer1)
Post #: 4
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 5:42:45 AM   
Cfant

 

Posts: 473
Joined: 12/12/2010
Status: offline 		Well, you can find an AAR for D21 here(TOAW III). It's in german, but lots of pictures. We shared one save-file and everyone of us got one Heeresgruppe. Didn't last too long, but maybe you can get an idea, if it is interesting for you.

http://www.si-games.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28110

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Post #: 5
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 5:49:15 AM   
IainF

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 11/20/2013
From: London, England
Status: offline 		D21 is a cracking scenario for a single player game, it does take a while to get through a turn but well worth the effort.

Jzardos - don't think it is set up for 2 players though (with one as the Sovs).

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Post #: 6
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 5:57:04 AM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		IS there anyway to get through the long ass PO turns? do they need to get broken up w PO combat reports? I do like the fact of a PO rather than just AI. There should be a list of games with PO.

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RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 6:17:19 AM   
Cfant

 

Posts: 473
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ballyhoo

IS there anyway to get through the long ass PO turns? do they need to get broken up w PO combat reports? I do like the fact of a PO rather than just AI. There should be a list of games with PO.


Your wish shall come true: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4378959

(in reply to spinecruncher)
Post #: 8
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 9:05:17 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		IanF is correct, D21 is not designed for two player, it is only for the Axis Human vs. the Computer. Now I guess some of you would think this is stupid, so let me explain.
The Fire in the East scenario [FitE] is the best you can get when it comes to the East Front, not just in TOAW, but in all of games there is no comparison. [And now for TOAW IV there is a FitE2] !!
However, there is no PO, it is two player only. Therefore, after discussions with the FitE Team, it was agreed that Rick [TPOO] and I should make a FitE scenario with a PO that was just different enough from FitE to avoid hassles with pre-2006 TOAW issues [please don't ask, just accept it].
Therefore, if you want two player East Front action, FitE is your game. For solitaire go D21. I will also mention that while D21 is designed for play against the Soviet PO, the Axis do have a PO that was installed for playtest purposes. So, while not optimal, the Axis will come at you if you really want to take on playing as the Soviet side.

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Post #: 9
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 2:42:08 PM   
TPOO

 

Posts: 180
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From: Garden Grove, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

IanF is correct, D21 is not designed for two player, it is only for the Axis Human vs. the Computer. Now I guess some of you would think this is stupid, so let me explain.
The Fire in the East scenario [FitE] is the best you can get when it comes to the East Front, not just in TOAW, but in all of games there is no comparison. [And now for TOAW IV there is a FitE2] !!
However, there is no PO, it is two player only. Therefore, after discussions with the FitE Team, it was agreed that Rick [TPOO] and I should make a FitE scenario with a PO that was just different enough from FitE to avoid hassles with pre-2006 TOAW issues [please don't ask, just accept it].
Therefore, if you want two player East Front action, FitE is your game. For solitaire go D21. I will also mention that while D21 is designed for play against the Soviet PO, the Axis do have a PO that was installed for playtest purposes. So, while not optimal, the Axis will come at you if you really want to take on playing as the Soviet side.


Unfortunately I only programmed the Axis PO for about 35 turns and stopped as it was mainly set up for testing events and not for actual game play. An Axis PO would also need to change objective tracks at this point and would need BIAS influence adjustments which are not programed in. The main problem with an AXIS PO is also that it bypasses to many Soviet units on its advance with this size of a map.


(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 10
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 2:53:56 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		The first time I typed that up I had credited you with putting in an Axis PO, but then I thought about it and seemed to remember that it wasn't a 'full PO' so I changed my statement
Problem with the Axis is they have not enough units to cover such a front, and Elmer would be in quick trouble. We need to make a second version for Soviet Human vs. Axis PO that breaks down the Axis units further [to give the PO more units to work with].

(in reply to TPOO)
Post #: 11
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 3:33:28 PM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Elmer" Great. So when we play single player, sometimes we are playing against Elmer, and sometimes we are just playing a stock AI. in D 21, we face Elmer for 35 turns, which would be to around Typhoon? Then it is stock AI?

It would be great to have a scenario list that included Elmer.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 12
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 3:40:35 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		You did completely misunderstand, I believe. We were discussing a possible AXIS PO for D21. The Soviet PO is full on and will give you a go.

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Post #: 13
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 3:57:37 PM   
Tamas

 

Posts: 985
Joined: 1/7/2001
Status: offline 		By the way, if the whole East Front war is your thing, but D21 is just a bit too detailed for your taste, there is also TGW 1941-1945. It has just been updated by sPzAbt653 in the scenario forum:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4382985

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Post #: 14
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 4:06:50 PM   
Meyer1

 

Posts: 899
Joined: 2/9/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tamas

By the way, if the whole East Front war is your thing, but D21 is just a bit too detailed for your taste, there is also TGW 1941-1945. It has just been updated by sPzAbt653 in the scenario forum:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4382985

Also "Eastern front 1941-1945", the designer said:


quote:

ORIGINAL: governato

`Eastern Front 41-45' plays well vs the Axis or Russian AI even if at 200 turns long is best suited as PBEM.


You may want to edit the "Scenario list by designer recommendation (AI and/or PBEM)" thread

(in reply to Tamas)
Post #: 15
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 5:48:08 PM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		My point is the distinction bw stock AI, and Elmer (PO). my understanding is that there is a more scripted PO (Elmer) in DIR 21 which last for 35 turns, and past that Elmer becomes stock AI. I am referring to Soviet.
Is there not a distinction bw PO and stock AI?

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 16
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 5:54:48 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		No, you are completely wrong again. You make a lot of harsh statements that are unfounded, you are very unknowledgeable. You know nothing about Directive 21 and should not even offer any statements on it. Po and AI has been explained already in several threads. I can't help you if you have no intention of absorbing any studies.

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Post #: 17
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 6:41:23 PM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Omg I was not trying to be harsh. I just thought there was a more scripted AI in Dir 21. How was I being harsh? So is all AI the same then? Excuse me for living.

And you are correct, I am not very knowledgeable. I am attracted to a lot of diff Matrix titles and unfortunately have become a master of none. Same thing with TOAW 4, there are so many great looking scenarios including DIR 21, I do not know where to begin.

< Message edited by ballyhoo -- 11/21/2017 6:43:07 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/21/2017 8:02:48 PM   
TPOO

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 11/15/2007
From: Garden Grove, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ballyhoo

Omg I was not trying to be harsh. I just thought there was a more scripted AI in Dir 21. How was I being harsh? So is all AI the same then? Excuse me for living.

And you are correct, I am not very knowledgeable. I am attracted to a lot of diff Matrix titles and unfortunately have become a master of none. Same thing with TOAW 4, there are so many great looking scenarios including DIR 21, I do not know where to begin.


I know it has been explained elsewhere but I will add my 2 cents for those that are not totally grasping this concept.
The AI (Artificial Intelligence or Elmer) is built into the game. It can be part of every scenario created in TOAW 4. The PO (programmed opponent) is the scenario designer adding objectives, objective tracks, events, telling Elmer what to do in a given scenario. Every scenario has a PO to some degree or it can not be valid. PBEM scenarios basically do not have Elmer programmed to do anything for either side as there is usually only 1 objective per formation. Directive 21 has only the Soviet side programmed and is programmed as such throughout the length of the scenario more or less to simulate the war on the eastern front as it occurred.

(in reply to spinecruncher)
Post #: 19
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/22/2017 12:52:56 AM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I am grasping now. Somehow I misunderstood who Elmer is.

(in reply to TPOO)
Post #: 20
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/22/2017 1:54:35 AM   
gbaby


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/2/2016
Status: offline 		Elmer is a suicidal maniac that is far superior on the attack than you. However, if you withstand his aggressive manuevers, you can usually catch the brilliant idiot with his shorts down by encircling and cutting off supply. But watch out, he will attack, attack, attack to get out of it, sometimes, but usually too weakened at that point.

Elmer is also a pro at getting pity from human scenario designers who often add additional abilities to his manuevers called PO. PO is in addition to Elmer's qualities as an AI. Humans can be so damn sneaky, and they like to help Elmer in this way.

Also Elmer will need prodding to take historical actions that give us a "this is what happened" feeling. Else Elmer may opt for something to his liking.

Elmer is not so bad, I've had good times with Elmer with no PO, but at the same time, Elmer can get confused without PO, all depending on the scenario itself. You won't know till you play the scenario.

Oh, and don't dumb down Elmer with the "weak" AI setting. Still plays fine, but attacks are not done as well since Elmer is in a "drunk" state at this setting.


(in reply to spinecruncher)
Post #: 21
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/22/2017 2:01:01 AM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		:Oh, and don't dumb down Elmer with the "weak" AI setting. Still plays fine, but attacks are not done as well since Elmer is in a "drunk" state at this setting. "

I dont think there are dumb down options are there?

(in reply to gbaby)
Post #: 22
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/22/2017 2:05:53 AM   
gbaby


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/2/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ballyhoo
I dont think there are dumb down options are there?


Yes, there is. In Player Options menu item, "Set Advanced Player Options", the Programmed Opponent Options allow you to set AI Intelligence and you can also set Handicap/Cheat (doesn't do much). But the AI strength does. You can change this at any time.

I know it says "Programmed Opponent", but this is not the script assist, this is Elmer's IQ level, how long Elmer takes to figure out his move/attacks.

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Post #: 23
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/22/2017 4:00:39 AM   
TPOO

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 11/15/2007
From: Garden Grove, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gbaby


quote:

ORIGINAL: ballyhoo
I dont think there are dumb down options are there?


Yes, there is. In Player Options menu item, "Set Advanced Player Options", the Programmed Opponent Options allow you to set AI Intelligence and you can also set Handicap/Cheat (doesn't do much). But the AI strength does. You can change this at any time.

I know it says "Programmed Opponent", but this is not the script assist, this is Elmer's IQ level, how long Elmer takes to figure out his move/attacks.




There are also ways to program Elmer to play a certain way in the scenario events editor. If formation objectives are set in a certain way it will effect how Elmer reacts to the enemy around him.
Elmer's play is also affected by how the scenario designer sets the strategic bias in the event settings. There are 5 settings Beserk , Aggressive, Neutral, Cautious and Very Cautious. If a setting is Beserk then Elmer will more then likely advance without regard for enemy strength along the formation objective path. If the setting is very cautious then Elmer will tend to retreat along the formation's objective path if the enemy is a certain percentage stronger then him. These bias events can be triggered by other events in the scenario at certain times or even by events on who is winning or loosing.




(in reply to gbaby)
Post #: 24
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 11/22/2017 4:24:22 AM   
gbaby


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/2/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TPOO
There are also ways to program Elmer to play a certain way in the scenario events editor. If formation objectives are set in a certain way it will effect how Elmer reacts to the enemy around him.
Elmer's play is also affected by how the scenario designer sets the strategic bias in the event settings. There are 5 settings Beserk , Aggressive, Neutral, Cautious and Very Cautious. If a setting is Beserk then Elmer will more then likely advance without regard for enemy strength along the formation objective path. If the setting is very cautious then Elmer will tend to retreat along the formation's objective path if the enemy is a certain percentage stronger then him. These bias events can be triggered by other events in the scenario at certain times or even by events on who is winning or loosing.


Thanks for the extra info. Obviously I have faced several Bezerker Elmer's as it seemed to throw caution to the wind. That is one of the joys of the game, I never really know how my Single Player session is going to go with any scenario, they are so varied. Elmer keeps me coming back for more, for sure.

(in reply to TPOO)
Post #: 25
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 12/27/2020 5:52:27 PM   
SandyInLondon

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		Could somebody explain what happens if Directive 21 is played 2 player.

I am playing Axis versus a human opponent who set up the challenge and we are at about T 12

So far appears OK vs history but reading about the scenario being for use against Soviet AI only and not for PBEM make me worry that by the winter there will be an excess flood of Soviets built in to allow the AI to "do OK".

I am worried I have been suckered into a game the Axis cannot win in PBEM 2 player...


Does anybody have any experience of this scenario 2 player please.

Thanks

sandy

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Post #: 26
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 12/28/2020 12:42:58 AM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		Steve can answer that better than I since he is the designer.

My understanding is this:

D21 is for the Axis player to play Solo against the AI (Elmer).

If you want a two player game, then play the Russo-German War 1941-45 by the same crew, it has a PO for both sides and is also playable as a two player game.

That is my understanding.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

_____________________________


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(in reply to SandyInLondon)
Post #: 27
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 12/28/2020 8:50:27 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Sounds good, Don. Happy New Year to you!

It's been years since we put together D21 so I don't remember all the specifics. Some things were done to help the PO defend better, such as units that are in Garrison or units that can't move. The OOB is historic, there are no 'extra' units for the PO. However, sometimes the PO assistance can annoy a human, that is one reason that we advertised D21 as Human Axis Only. It was basically a one player FitE, which was a two player scenario without a PO. With the arrival of FitE2 at a different scale, we decided to make the two player version of D21, which is the Russo-German War 1941-45

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 28
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 1/1/2021 10:34:39 AM   
SandyInLondon

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		tHANK YOU FOR REPLIES SO FAR

But my real concern has not been specifically adressed

Should we keep playing Dir 21 as a 2 player PBEM and has anybody ever done this and can report what happened?

Is it correct that some events do not work properly in 2 player games?

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 29
RE: Directive 21 anyone? - 1/2/2021 2:44:55 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SandyInLondon

tHANK YOU FOR REPLIES SO FAR

But my real concern has not been specifically adressed

Should we keep playing Dir 21 as a 2 player PBEM and has anybody ever done this and can report what happened?

Is it correct that some events do not work properly in 2 player games?


I think one of the biggest issues would be the added benefits the Soviets get. This has to be done to give the Programmed Opponent a fighting chance and to make the scenario a challenge. The PO can only do so much. Steve has done an excellent job making this single player scenario a challenge.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 1/2/2021 2:46:49 AM >

_____________________________

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

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A: A stick.

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Post #: 30
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