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Bombing a bridge question - 12/8/2017 10:46:05 PM   
mikeCK

 

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Status: offline 		I am playing Red Thunder 1988 as NATO. I keep targeting a bridge in Magdeburg with my F-111’s. When I click on it I get the message “destroy bridge (100%). Yet when I bomb, it tells me “bridge not destroyed”. If it was already blown, would I still get the option to attack? If not, what does “100%” mean if not “there is a 100% chance you will destroy it”? Is that the percentage of the bridge intact? Or the chances
Post #: 1
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/8/2017 11:15:06 PM   
Fred98


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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		If you are playing Hot Seat against yourself you can bomb the bridge and then try to drive troops over the bridge.

(in reply to mikeCK)
Post #: 2
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/9/2017 12:22:51 AM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fred98
If you are playing Hot Seat against yourself you can bomb the bridge and then try to drive troops over the bridge.

Fred98 my friend, all that is true but I think what mikeCK is pointing out is that the game engine calculated that
it was going to destroy the bridge, no doubt, and then the results of the attack say the bridge still stands, so
one of them is inaccurate to say the least. I can't imagine a situation that would cause that. Maybe bad weather
over the hex ( Tstorms, etc. ), well, no that wouldn't affect it that much I don't think. I donno. It's over my
head. Maybe the toawlog.txt file will have a hint in it.

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Post #: 3
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/9/2017 2:09:08 AM   
mikeCK

 

Posts: 565
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Status: offline 		I bombed it 3 times all with the same result: Attack Bridge (100%) and then after the attack, the report says (at the bottom) “Bridge not destroyed”. I’m just not sure what the percentage means. Is it the chance of a hit, chance it will be destroyed or maybe the amount of “health” left? Do bridges even have a damage model or is it “dead or alive”

It’s important because in this scenario, you HAVE to slow down the Pact forces until the REFORGER units arrive. There are about 4-5 major bridges they use to advance

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 4
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/9/2017 2:12:49 AM   
Meyer1

 

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Status: offline 		The number is the chance of success of the attack.
Maybe this is the reason?:

quote:

Any unit can blow bridges. This can be done at any time and at no cost. If the “New Bridge Rules” Advanced Rule option is ON then bridges may only be blown on locations that have a road/railroad that graphically crosses a river/canal. Otherwise, any location with both a road//railroad and a river/canal, even if they don’t graphically cross, is eligible to be blown.

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Post #: 5
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/9/2017 2:15:47 AM   
Meyer1

 

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Status: offline 		It is clearer in the what's new doc (.docx)
quote:


VI. NEW BRIDGE DESTRUCTION RULES:

There is now an Advanced Rule player-option to use the New Bridge Destruction Rules. If optioned, bridges will only exist, and be subject to destruction, in locations where the road terrain graphically crosses the river/canal terrain. This will affect both bridge-blowing by units and bridge-attacks by aircraft.


You may want to check if you are playing with the new bridge rules, and if in that hex the road crosses the river.

(in reply to Meyer1)
Post #: 6
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/9/2017 3:21:30 AM   
mikeCK

 

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Status: offline 		What do you mean by “the road crosses the river”. It does...that’s where the Bridge is. You mean check and see if the road STILL crosses?
Not sure about the rules...but what is the difference between standard and “new” bridge rules?

(in reply to Meyer1)
Post #: 7
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/9/2017 3:40:54 AM   
Meyer1

 

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Status: offline 		With the the old rules, hexes that contain a river and a road are considered as if they have a bridge, even if graphically the road doesn't cross the hex, but runs parallel.

Not saying that is the case here, but could be. A screenshot would help.

< Message edited by Meyer1 -- 12/9/2017 3:41:17 AM >

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Post #: 8
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/9/2017 4:07:09 AM   
Meyer1

 

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Status: offline 		OK, fired up the scenario and the bridge at Magdeburg is crossed by the river. Tried to destroy it for a couple of turns.... and is a really tough bridge
So I'm out of this one, let's wait for someone more knowledgeable to explain it.

(in reply to Meyer1)
Post #: 9
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/9/2017 5:03:38 AM   
Fred98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

OK, fired up the scenario and the bridge at Magdeburg is crossed by the river.



Technically, the river is crossed by the bridge


.

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Post #: 10
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/9/2017 5:09:52 AM   
Meyer1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fred98


quote:

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

OK, fired up the scenario and the bridge at Magdeburg is crossed by the river.



Technically, the river is crossed by the bridge


.

Meant to say that the river is crossed by the road... I should go to bed already

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 11
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/9/2017 5:46:52 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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Status: offline 		Lads... in order to check how some stuff 'under the hoods' works, enable toawlog.txt ON. I already hinted it in one or two tutorial sessions. Anyway, I am planning a Tutorial '44 which covers the basic aspects of WW2 interdiction, AS, CAS, airfield and... bridge attacks, as well as how weather, night, fatigue etc. affects it. And yes, I will have a Staffel of Me-262 and some night-bombers and night-fighters present as well.

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 12
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/10/2017 7:09:16 PM   
mikeCK

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

OK, fired up the scenario and the bridge at Magdeburg is crossed by the river. Tried to destroy it for a couple of turns.... and is a really tough bridge
So I'm out of this one, let's wait for someone more knowledgeable to explain it.


Did you get the messages saying “attack bridge 100%”?
I can get 100% with F-111s but only around 35% with tornados so that means that number isn’t the bridge “health”. Don’t know. Maybe a bug...but LIKELY operator error

(in reply to Meyer1)
Post #: 13
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/10/2017 7:44:19 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeCK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

OK, fired up the scenario and the bridge at Magdeburg is crossed by the river. Tried to destroy it for a couple of turns.... and is a really tough bridge
So I'm out of this one, let's wait for someone more knowledgeable to explain it.


Did you get the messages saying “attack bridge 100%”?
I can get 100% with F-111s but only around 35% with tornados so that means that number isn’t the bridge “health”. Don’t know. Maybe a bug...but LIKELY operator error

Mike

again... too many factors. Look at the Tutorial '44 where Polkovnik Klinkovski's flyboys did destroy a bridge with less 'predicted success ratio'. Too many variables... even 'all weather FB's' can miss their target(s), especially if jammers, etc are involved.

Klink, Oberst

P.S. Did you have a look at the toawlog.txt?

< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 12/10/2017 7:45:31 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/10/2017 7:46:22 PM   
Meyer1

 

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Joined: 2/9/2010
Status: offline 		The manual states clearly that the number is the chance of success... but to be honest that doesn´t make a lot of sense since the enemy also has a say about it


quote:

Did you get the messages saying “attack bridge 100%”?
I can get 100% with F-111s but only around 35% with tornados so that means that number isn’t the bridge “health”. Don’t know. Maybe a bug...but LIKELY operator error


Yeah I did a 100% attack and many minor ones. Ddin't bother to check what each unit had. Also made a quick check in the toawlog and apparently the red air force was rejected and didn't interfere.
Did you try with another bridge?

< Message edited by Meyer1 -- 12/10/2017 7:47:35 PM >

(in reply to mikeCK)
Post #: 15
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/10/2017 8:04:22 PM   
Meyer1

 

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Status: offline 		So, another try, first turn, attacked the bridge with any available air unit and....






Attachment (1)

(in reply to Meyer1)
Post #: 16
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/10/2017 8:18:15 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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Status: offline 		Ha! I always kinda knew that the Royal Airforce will do the trick, eh? :D Or was it the USAF with 'Operation Dreamland' from 'Red Storm Rising'?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqKLm0ULZFQ

Klink, Oberst



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Post #: 17
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/10/2017 8:43:26 PM   
Meyer1

 

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Status: offline 		Well, with several units attacking it, apparently you can't tell which unit was the one who destroyed it, even looking at the log.
Also, after the attack I had a failed proficiency check which ended my turn, so probably wasn't worth it

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 18
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/10/2017 9:34:01 PM   
bde4soldier223

 

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Status: offline 		failed proficiency check

what is that?

i just got it too

what does it mean?


thanks in advanced

(in reply to Meyer1)
Post #: 19
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/10/2017 9:48:57 PM   
Meyer1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bde4soldier223

failed proficiency check

what is that?

i just got it too

what does it mean?


thanks in advanced

Your force has a "overall force proficiency" percentage that you could check in the situation briefing. After each attack you make a "proficiency check" is done:

quote:

Your Force fails a Proficiency Check. This is the primary use of the Force Proficiency value, though it should be noted that the Force Proficiency value is not the exact probability that the Turn will continue after each series of Attacks. To fail the check, a random check against the Force Proficiency value must fail, AND a random check against the number of rounds remaining must also fail. So the chance of failing the check increases as more and more of the turn is expended.


If your force fail at this, your turn ends.

(in reply to bde4soldier223)
Post #: 20
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/10/2017 10:29:42 PM   
bde4soldier223

 

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Status: offline 		thanks

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Post #: 21
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/11/2017 7:24:25 AM   
Devast8or

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/16/2001
Status: offline 		Hmm this is weird. I'm playing the Korea scenario against PO and I was trying to bomb few of the bridges behind his lines to cut the supply lines for the NK but all attempts failed.
Now I only attacked two bridges one of them was attacked by two different units. I did not pay that much attention to it at the time, I figured I was unlucky but this thread made me think.
Maybe there is something wrong with the logic behind? The bridge that I attacked twice hade a chance of success at 58% and 78%. I'll try to bomb the crap of that bridge again with all available units just to see if it can be done.

(in reply to bde4soldier223)
Post #: 22
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/11/2017 8:28:19 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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Status: offline 		toawlog.txt would be quite helpful. I tried, as good as I could, to shed some light of the famous Ouch! and Furball! questions in Tutorial '44.

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 23
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/11/2017 9:11:40 PM   
Devast8or

 

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Status: offline 		OK, good news is that bridges are destroyable. I even destroyed one at 14% chance!

(in reply to mikeCK)
Post #: 24
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/11/2017 11:23:06 PM   
mikeCK

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline 		I understand all of the factors that may go into calculating whether a bridge gets destroyed. My concern is that the computer is telling me I have a 100% chance of destroying the bridge. Yet 4 tries failed to bring it down. I did destroy the other bridges that had <75% chance.

(in reply to Devast8or)
Post #: 25
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/11/2017 11:58:38 PM   
Meyer1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeCK

I understand all of the factors that may go into calculating whether a bridge gets destroyed. My concern is that the computer is telling me I have a 100% chance of destroying the bridge. Yet 4 tries failed to bring it down. I did destroy the other bridges that had <75% chance.

Well I guess the lesson here is that you can't rely too much on that number because, Clausewitz' friction and all that

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Post #: 26
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/12/2017 12:42:40 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeCK

I understand all of the factors that may go into calculating whether a bridge gets destroyed. My concern is that the computer is telling me I have a 100% chance of destroying the bridge. Yet 4 tries failed to bring it down. I did destroy the other bridges that had <75% chance.

The estimate assumes the planes will actually reach the target. Yet, in your example, there was strong enemy interception of them - with many shot down.

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Post #: 27
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/12/2017 4:08:55 AM   
Sleazey

 

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Status: offline 		In the Full Report graphic:

What does [FC, R0] mean after each strike report?

What does [R0, Blue, LC, FC] mean?

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Post #: 28
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/12/2017 4:25:18 AM   
Meyer1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sleazey

In the Full Report graphic:

What does [FC, R0] mean after each strike report?

What does [R0, Blue, LC, FC] mean?


There's a button in the combat chart which explain those abbreviations. Check the manual section 16.22 for more details.

(in reply to Sleazey)
Post #: 29
RE: Bombing a bridge question - 12/12/2017 2:23:57 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sleazey

In the Full Report graphic:

What does [FC, R0] mean after each strike report?

What does [R0, Blue, LC, FC] mean?

Those are codes used to create the Combat Chart.

On individual unit lines, FC is the cooperation level (Full, Limited, and None). R0 is the Unit timestamp.

The line at the top, R0 is the turn timestamp. Blue is the attacking side's color. Then there is the overall attacker and defender cooperation.

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