Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeteGarnett

My opponent (Vanman) & I do not follow how to use subs against surface ships.

Case in point is where I selected sub combat using 4 of my 6 surprise points and whilst we both expected the subs to be at risk against the surface fleet we also thought that they would have a chance to do some damage. I just lost both subs and had no chance to hit any of opposing ships.

Seems like subs are only there for attacking convoys.

BTW I selected sub combat as I was seriously out-gunned for a surface combat.

Wonder if we are missing something in the rules or just not understanding the point of subs. Was I right to use them as they are cheap compared to risking my surface ships?

Any thoughts folks ......

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You cannot use sub combat against surface ships by spending surprise points unless:
a) the surface ships you want to attack are in the zero box, and
b) there is at least one enemy CP there as well

Because in sub combat there is no further combat if there are no CPs left.

So for the tactic where you spend 7 surprise to go after a surface ship it's usually 4 surprise to pick a surface combat (as opposed to naval air) and 3 to pick a target. If a naval air is out of the picture, then you only need 3 surprise.

The big misunderstanding is that sub combat does not mean submarines attacking with torpedoes, it means submarines attacking CPs. If subs and surface ships have combat, it is termed "surface combat" but that does not mean the subs are fighting while surfaced.

quote:

11.5.7 The choice
Both sides will fight the same type of combat. You make the choice according to this priority:
1. You may choose the combat type if you spend 4 surprise points. If you choose a combat type that doesn’t involve any combat (e.g. air-to-air combat with no aircraft included or sub combat with no CPs included) go back to step 2 in the combat sequence (see 11.5.1)

quote:

The SUBs also attack in the same way as a surface naval combat except that they use the SUB row of the naval combat chart and only enemy naval units in the 0 sea-box section count as ‘Enemy Ships’.

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Once there are no further convoys to suffer losses, all remaining losses inflicted by the subs are ignored.

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


but the rules are a little lacking here. the big capital ships were really vulnerable to subs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

If you try the choice of Sub Combat without CPs, your SUBs will attack with their higher, printed factors, but will have a harder time generating quantity of results because:

"If no convoy points are included (only possible if you spent surprise points to choose a submarine combat ~ see 11.5.7) then you fight on the ‘0’ ships row."



I will never forget a sad experience I had trying to help a new player who had just started as the USA player in one of the Pacific scenarios. Staring at the map with counters all over it and all of his ships still in port, he asked me what he should do next. I told him he should pick some sea areas to either attack with his ships, or defend with his ships - you are the Commander-in-Chief now. I got the impression he had never commanded a cardboard ship before, or the lack of hexagons to move them on had fairly well made his wheels fall off. I have always thought a fair number of WiF players want to command the Wehrmacht or the Red Army and would rather go to the dentist than play a Major Power with a lot of naval units.

The Japanese player had already moved some units, and had parked a SUB in the zone right off of Pearl Harbor. "What about the enemy submarines?", the new player asked. I told him they could intercept but their overall odds of success were fairly low, and he could move ships out together for a single risk, or move them one at a time, explained Intercept vs. deciding to keep moving through, etc. He elected to send out the Lexington, all by itself. The Japanese rolled a 1 to intercept. He chose to "fight through", rolled a 10 for his search dice, and the Lexington was promptly sunk.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

But in RAW7 (which is tbe base for MWIF), it is perfectly allright to chose other boxes added to the zero box. You can therefore spend surprise points to get at the juicy carrier in the 1 box during submarine combat...

RAW:

1. You can choose the combat type if you spend 4 surprise points.
You can even choose a combat type not normally allowed (e.g.
SUB combat even if no enemy convoy points are included);
2. You can choose to make it a naval air combat (active side
decides first) if you have an aircraft unit or undamaged CV
(CVPiF/SiF option 56: with a carrier plane) included and the
weather in the sea area is neither storm nor blizzard;
3. If it is not a naval air combat, you can choose to make it a
submarine combat (active side decides first) if you have a SUB
included and your opponent has any convoy points included; or
4. If it is neither a naval air combat nor a submarine combat, it is a
surface combat.
You can choose a combat type that won’t produce a combat.

There is no mentioning of having to include only the zero box in RAW7 or in the FAQ of RAW7.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I don't get it (or perhaps it's the fact that I'm not a native English speaker here).

In our group, one could elect to include more boxes than the "zero" box in a submarine combat. If convoy points are present you get the "normal" result and can spend 3 surprise points to select an escort as target.

If there are no convoy points included, one can spend 4 surprise points to select a submarine combat. You than fight on the "0-1" ships row against the enemy and can spend 3 points to select a ship as target.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I don't get it (or perhaps it's the fact that I'm not a native English speaker here).

In our group, one could elect to include more boxes than the "zero" box in a submarine combat. If convoy points are present you get the "normal" result and can spend 3 surprise points to select an escort as target.

If there are no convoy points included, one can spend 4 surprise points to select a submarine combat. You than fight on the "0-1" ships row against the enemy and can spend 3 points to select a ship as target.

You have it correct [ iirc :) ]. If only the SUB side has a successful search roll, it selects which enemy boxes to include - it is not even required to include the 0 box. But if it includes the 0 box and enemy CPs are there, the SUB side _can_ then choose to make it a Sub Combat. It would only be wise to add boxes other than the 0 box if the SUB side had enough surprise points to spend them to change a combat result from the Convoy Points to some other target the SUB wanted to hit, like a TRS, or maybe a previously Damaged ship or something. Enemy units outside the 0 box would not increase their target profile and thus the SUB's offensive combat results - but they would increase the ASW total to calculate results the SUB has to suffer.

Also, everyone playing World in Flames should always remember that it is not a tactical combat game. The air, naval and even land combat systems don't represent a single day of battle or single air raid, ever - they represent a week or more of combat activity. The counters don't fight one battle on one day and then go rest up for two months, waiting for their next turn in the war. The game combats are representational, not single-point situational, and the rather binary combat results are accumulated attrition for each side.


I think Centuur just moved into 2018 as I typed this one out ... Happy New Year everyone!

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeteGarnett

Happy New Year All.

So I should have selected the 4 box, where his fleet was, & then used 3 of my surprise points to select target for the surface combat. That would have allowed me a shot at one of his capital ships.

My subs would also have attacked with one less strength point each.

I think I understand now - thanks all.

quote:

The SUBs also attack in the same way as a surface naval combat except that they use the SUB row of the naval combat chart and only enemy naval units in the 0 sea-box section count as ‘Enemy Ships’.

Losses inflicted by the non-SUB side can only be taken on the SUBs that attacked them (owner’s choice). For every 3 surprise points you spend, you may select the target SUB instead of the owner (see 11.5.6).

Losses inflicted by the SUB side may be any included naval unit if the SUB player spends 3 surprise points. Otherwise every odd (1st, 3rd, 5th etc.) loss must be convoy points (CoiF option 7: including ASW, see 22.16); and every even loss must be either convoy points (CoiF option 7: including ASW), a CV or an SCS in the 0 sea-box section (owner’s choice). Once there are no further convoys to suffer losses, all remaining losses inflicted by the subs are ignored.