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RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW)

 
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RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/20/2018 6:06:56 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 189 - Axis Turn (in real time)
8th July 1942

I suspect I know what is coming and it starts with A and ends with Y and it’s going to hurt……

Well that’s a surprise. First time I’ve bothered to use interdiction for ages and I lose two fighter squadrons evaporated. As far as I can tell from the playback my bombers didn’t even attack.

Aircraft swapping positions (presumably depleted for fresh units)
a Wellington squadron evaporates – funny this I thought I had air superiority….. oh I did…

More artillery moving up to the front now – lots and lots of artillery….

…wow this is a long turn – I guess the downside of better recce is sitting though longer playbacks
Here comes a German paratrooper landing at Dekheila I think….





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/20/2018 9:40:34 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 871
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/20/2018 6:07:59 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 189 - Axis Turn (in real time)
8th July 1942

Mmmm struggling to remain coherent at the moment. The paratroopers have now marched on Alexandria and all the RN ships have moved out.

An attack on the coast road pushes the Allies back

A South African AT and an LAA battery evaporates and a battalion of infantry retreat

The bombardments start

A battalion of infantry evaporates

Now back to the paratroopers who are attacking RAF base units and support units

Yet another battalion of South Africans evaporate

More units retreat

Another Hurricane squadron evaporates

Another Wellington squadron evaporates

An LAA unit evaporates




< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/20/2018 9:40:21 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 872
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/20/2018 6:23:43 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 189
8th July 1942

So what happens now? Does this mean the navy are back in play? According to the scenario briefing they are permanently out of play if Alexandria is lost - but I can still move and shoot with them.....

Not that it matters much - at the start of that turn I had air superiority I lost 6 squadrons and had an airborne drop take place near Alexandria where most of my fighter squadrons are. I've lost, evaporated, most of my South African infantry, as my coastal plain defence line has disappeared and yet.... looking at the German units that have achieved this it appears they used two tank battalions????

Okay.....

I've been looking at the coding and I think I've spotted the fundamental flaw with the scenario....





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/20/2018 9:40:10 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 873
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/20/2018 9:55:37 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 189
8th July 1942

It's difficult to see a way back from this. I suspect the paratroopers will be like the panzers and very difficult to dislodge with the little I have available.

My initial feeling is that I will simply have to throw everything at it and not worry about the consequences. The CW air force is totally pointless anyway, the artillery is weak and the infantry disappear in a cloud of smoke if they so much as look at an Axis soldier.

The other alternative is simply to keep withdrawing until turn 201. I no longer have a naval base to protect and, frankly, there is no point looking after the fighter and bomber squadrons, and get them to full strength just to be shot down on the first turn they are used.

Its pretty scary that he's destroyed my forces in the north and yet I can see the bulk of his armour elsewhere!

I'll sleep on it and then total up the damage from the last turn before deciding what to do.....




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 874
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 12:48:57 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 189
8th July 1942

Well I think I might as well attack. I've not bothered trying to manage the air situation anymore as it doesn't seem to work; basically if it is not reorganising then its flying - regardless of supply, readiness etc.

I can't garrison every airbase. I'll just have to ignore them and hope that last turn was a one off and that as a general rule lumbering Ju-52's can't simply rock up to downtown Cairo and drop an airborne division unopposed.

It's a case of just blasting away, hope I get lucky and the turn doesn't end early and seeing what happens.

Four attacks planned. I can't get at Alexandria at present.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/21/2018 1:08:24 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 875
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 12:59:29 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Turn 189
8th July 1942

So what happens now? Does this mean the navy are back in play? According to the scenario briefing they are permanently out of play if Alexandria is lost - but I can still move and shoot with them.....

Not that it matters much - at the start of that turn I had air superiority I lost 6 squadrons and had an airborne drop take place near Alexandria where most of my fighter squadrons are. I've lost, evaporated, most of my South African infantry, as my coastal plain defence line has disappeared and yet.... looking at the German units that have achieved this it appears they used two tank battalions????

Okay.....

I've been looking at the coding and I think I've spotted the fundamental flaw with the scenario....




The alternative explanation is that your august opponent is...ahem..cheating.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 876
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 1:14:37 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 189
8th July 1942

The attack on Dekheila went well and the paratroop battalion was unable to retreat and so destroyed.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 877
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 1:21:06 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 189
8th July 1942

An all too familiar story.....

The attack against the Axis forces west of Burg El Arab was successful in so far as the enemy retreated. In terms of losses the 'Excellent' attack with 'moderate' losses turned out to be a little different. The lost enemy infantry didn't even reach 20 squads. The CW lost 115....





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_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 878
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 1:28:35 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 189
8th July 1942

The attacks to the south followed similar patterns. The most southern attack saw the enemy retreat but the CW lost 3 times the men plus aircraft and tanks.....

The attack just north of that says it all. Again the losses were 3 times greater for the CW, the panzers held their ground and 12 Me-109's came off better against 87 Spitfires, Hurricanes and Kittyhawks.....




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 879
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 1:43:39 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 189
8th July 1942

Once again I can't get to Alexandria - or at least I can but the odds against two parachute battalions are woeful.

I therefore try and push ahead on the coastal plain. The odds are not great for two of the attacks but its difficult to see why and so I am going to have to ignore the prediction. I have plenty of artillery and air support for each and so I'm hoping this will have the desired effect on the outcome.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/21/2018 1:46:45 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 880
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 1:48:57 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 189
8th July 1942

The first attack went well (subject to seeing the CW losses) as the II Battalion, 8th Panzer Regiment evaporated.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 881
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 1:57:55 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 189
8th July 1942

The remaining three attacks were total and utter disasters and the air situation is bordering on the ridiculous. 7 Me-109's was all that the Luftwaffe could put in the air in the last attack. They were opposed by 148 Spitfires, Hurricanes and Kittyhawks.... no prizes for guessing which side came off worse.

The last round contained a further four attacks and I will summarise the turn below.....

Wow.... the best part of 1,000 infantry squads lost....

The CW fighters flew over a 1,000 sorties - 10 for every 1 German fighter in the sky. And yet they lost and had destroyed more fighters, let alone the bombers they were escorting. Bizarre.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/21/2018 3:06:04 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 882
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 3:34:04 PM   
MikeJ19


Posts: 3696
Joined: 1/29/2014
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		Warspite,

A very interesting battle. Your account of it is great. I’m enjoying reading your thought process and humour.

Wish I had so e answers for your air problems...

All the best,

_____________________________

Mike

Retired Gunner

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 883
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 8:10:15 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19

Warspite,

A very interesting battle. Your account of it is great. I’m enjoying reading your thought process and humour.

Wish I had so e answers for your air problems...

All the best,
warspite1

Cheers. Re bold - please let me know ASAP if you do


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to MikeJ19)
Post #: 884
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 8:11:24 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 190 - Axis Turn (in real time)
11th July 1942

The turn begins with Axis forces moving out of the mini salient created south the railway line. I can see two panzer battalions heading west along the coast road – and then a third. Axis forces north of Burg El Arab are also moving away along the coast road. It’s unclear how far they are moving.

An Italian bi-plane squadron evaporates. No idea why. I’ve got nothing on interdiction and there was no combat.

The Italian recce unit (the sole remaining unit near Burg El Arab) is engaged and fails to move.

Axis forces also move back a little further south – it looks like a straightening of the line exercise.

Still plenty of reinforcements moving east however…. Inc. aircraft

After a long reinforcement segment, the bombardments start…as do the usual results. A Marine unit evaporates

Axis forces moving into position south of the coast road


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 885
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 8:18:36 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 190
11th July 1942

The Axis turn wasn't too bad but I lost a shed load of artillery pieces once again.

Major problems now are:

- 1st South Africans are reorganising - which means I am limited in attacks
- My only fresh troops - Kiwis and Aussies - were seriously mauled over the last two turns
- Half the army are in 'Red' supply.
- No less than 11 squadrons are reorganising (I haven't checked the state of the others yet).




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/21/2018 8:25:20 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 886
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 9:05:04 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		If you read my CFNA article, you'll know that I consider turn 190 to be the "jig is up" turn for the Axis. Meaning that if he hasn't won by then, then he never will. From this point, the force ratios just become overwhelming for the CW. Of course, that probably assumed that O'Connor's Raid had been fully completed. Nevertheless, reaching this point is a good sign.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 887
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 9:54:18 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 190
11th July 1942

Sadly another pretty dismal turn for the CW. I made up a couple of hexes but the cost of each hex is just unsustainable.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 888
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/21/2018 9:58:22 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

If you read my CFNA article, you'll know that I consider turn 190 to be the "jig is up" turn for the Axis. Meaning that if he hasn't won by then, then he never will. From this point, the force ratios just become overwhelming for the CW. Of course, that probably assumed that O'Connor's Raid had been fully completed. Nevertheless, reaching this point is a good sign.
warspite1

devoncop might not win - but he sure as hell won't lose either based on what is happening.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 889
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/22/2018 12:10:16 AM   
700851McCall

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 1/7/2018
From: Staffordshire, England.
Status: offline 		What would a decisive victory have been for Rommel historically? I'd say that if he had secured all ports on the North African coast, and had fully interdicted the Suez canal, that would have been it. The British would have fought on in the Middle East but Rommel would have done all that could possibly be expected from him, in anyone's wildest dreams.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 890
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/22/2018 5:19:25 AM   
Zap


Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline 		Will you give your assessment once finished? I would be more interested in your opinion of the game then the scenario after you have this battle under your belt

_____________________________


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 891
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/22/2018 8:02:25 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Will you give your assessment once finished? I would be more interested in your opinion of the game then the scenario after you have this battle under your belt
warspite1

Yes I will - both the game and the scenario.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Zap)
Post #: 892
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/22/2018 8:18:31 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 700851McCall

What would a decisive victory have been for Rommel historically? I'd say that if he had secured all ports on the North African coast, and had fully interdicted the Suez canal, that would have been it. The British would have fought on in the Middle East but Rommel would have done all that could possibly be expected from him, in anyone's wildest dreams.
warspite1

The fact was, in my opinion, he could not achieve a decisive victory - and that was not what he was tasked with. His role - at least initially - was to shore up the Italians and stop the loss of North Africa. He chose to ignore those orders and everyone got carried away with the prospect of conquering Egypt. This became a drain on resources the Germans could not afford.

Why couldn't he achieve a decisive victory? The war in Europe was to be decided in the east. Even if Rommel had kicked the British out of Egypt and interdicted Suez - then what?

It was recognised pre-war that if Italy were the enemy then the Mediterranean would be closed to through traffic. Suez would assume less importance and the Cape would have to take up the strain. That is what happened - especially after the entry of the Luftwaffe. In such a scenario the British would fight on from East Africa/Middle East.

Perversely the loss of the Med, while a blow from a morale and prestige viewpoint, would actually have saved the RN a lot of losses that were incurred in trying to keep Malta in the war. The loss of oil would not have made that much difference - and would be unusable to the Axis.

An unknown is what effect would this have on Turkey? But if Rommel didn't achieve victory in Egypt until 1942, it was probably too late for the Turks to think the war in the east was a foregone conclusion and so risk entry.

Victory in Egypt would not have freed up large numbers of Axis troops either as the British and the Commonwealth would fight on and Rommel would have an ever expanding front line. India would assume an ever more important role as a base and no doubt the US would increase their commitment there accordingly.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/22/2018 8:20:12 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to 700851McCall)
Post #: 893
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/22/2018 10:28:02 AM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		Victory for Rommel should be measured in terms of how much time, resources, and blood the Allies had to commit to North Africa. As you say, he could not achieve decisive results in a secondary theater.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 894
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/22/2018 12:12:43 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 191 - Axis Turn (in real time)
15th July 1942

The turn starts ominously with German artillery from the 15th Panzer and 90th Light Divisions moving up to the front

Oh and panzer battalions too – presumably these have been on R+R and now, suitably refreshed, have come back to taunt me.

There is then a load of reinforcement moves out of and through the Jebel – seemingly mostly Italian units but a lot of invisible moves too so could be anyone. There are still a lot of units coming from Tripolitania

The bombardments start – liberally spread over the front – and then more artillery, Italian this time, position themselves on the coastal plain.
More aircraft swapping takes place

Then the bombardments recommence

More artillery seems to be moving away from the southern sector

11 bombardments in total - and huge losses to CW artillery which I'll look at in more detail shortly.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/23/2018 6:06:35 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 895
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/23/2018 6:14:43 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 191
15th July 1942

The victory conditions continues to move in devoncops favour. Those artillery losses are huge; its the same old story. The amount of artillery available to the Axis is incredible. I don't have the range to get at them and am just taken apart by counter-battery fire if I do.

Maybe I should try aircraft strikes - but I knows all too well what happens to my Blenheims and Wellingtons if I do....

What artillery I have left is on 'red' and needs a rest but time is not on my side for that. I'll have a think about it but maybe I'll give air strikes a try this turn while resting my artillery....

The German recce value has been reduced by 15% this turn which is helpful.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/23/2018 6:20:51 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 896
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/24/2018 7:24:16 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 191
15th July 1942

What a waste of a turn. But with 95% of my artillery on red, my air force shot up and my infantry and tank force seriously depleted there isn't much choice.... I have little choice to but to retreat one hex east and try and rest my units....(subject to taking another bombardment beating of course)....

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/24/2018 7:25:10 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 897
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/25/2018 8:37:55 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Turn 192 - Axis Turn and Allied Turn
18th July 1942

Mmm maybe we are both in the same boat. A lot of movement and reinforcement from devoncop last turn but no bombardments or attacks....

I am unable to do anything either. This is bad - and next turn I lose the 10th Indian Brigade - hussah!

Annoyingly I can't access the documentation as the button has greyed out so I can't check.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/25/2018 8:50:30 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 898
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/25/2018 2:16:59 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Turn 192 - Axis Turn and Allied Turn
18th July 1942

Mmm maybe we are both in the same boat. A lot of movement and reinforcement from devoncop last turn but no bombardments or attacks....

I am unable to do anything either. This is bad - and next turn I lose the 10th Indian Brigade - hussah!

Annoyingly I can't access the documentation as the button has greyed out so I can't check.




Did you change your default folder? Check that it is WWII - Med.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 899
RE: CFNA 1940-43 devoncop (Axis) vs warspite1 (CW) - 4/26/2018 4:11:13 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Turn 192 - Axis Turn and Allied Turn
18th July 1942

Mmm maybe we are both in the same boat. A lot of movement and reinforcement from devoncop last turn but no bombardments or attacks....

I am unable to do anything either. This is bad - and next turn I lose the 10th Indian Brigade - hussah!

Annoyingly I can't access the documentation as the button has greyed out so I can't check.




Did you change your default folder? Check that it is WWII - Med.
warspite1

I haven't touched any folders.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 900
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