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TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/14/2018 6:00:54 AM   
nukkxx5058


Posts: 2932
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
Status: offline 		Hi, I have the two games and love them both without been able to decide which one I prefer despite the fact they are quite different. So I would be interested to read your comments about these two games in terms of gameplay and which one you prefer in general and why. Your pros and cons ...
How about the specific 41-45 campaign in TOAW vs WITE ?
Thx
Post #: 1
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/14/2018 10:27:46 AM   
Olorin


Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/22/2008
From: Greece
Status: offline 		This is easy.
WitE is not a competitor to TOAW, it is a competitor to TOAW's equivalent eastern front scenarios. The best barbarossa scenario is (imho) Drang nach Osten (DNO, not available in stock, you have to download it).

DNO comes easily on top. It just reeks of quality. It's regimental level, 10Km/hex, half week turns, which I think it's the perfect scale for this operation.
WitE is full week turns, divisional scale, 16Km/hex and it feels arcade to me.

Now, add to the above the hundreds of scenarios TOAW can offer (of unequal quality to be sure) for half the price WitE costs and the choice becomes even easier. I consider buying WitE a waste of money.

WitW on the other hand I'd consider buying, because TOAW doesn't have an equivalent western front scenario (yet).

< Message edited by Olorin -- 1/14/2018 10:30:26 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 2
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/14/2018 10:30:42 AM   
nukkxx5058


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quote:

and it feels arcade to me

Ouch !

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Post #: 3
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/15/2018 3:56:15 AM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		I wouldn't say arcade but yes these basics never felt right to me. Turns are too long, and units like hexes are too large.
Gee I wish someone would work over DNO or McBride would come back.

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Post #: 4
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/15/2018 1:07:39 PM   
odoakr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin
The best barbarossa scenario is (imho) Drang nach Osten (DNO, not available in stock, you have to download it).


Any idea where to download it? Rugged defense has downloads disabled.

(in reply to Olorin)
Post #: 5
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/15/2018 2:42:11 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: odoakr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin
The best barbarossa scenario is (imho) Drang nach Osten (DNO, not available in stock, you have to download it).


Any idea where to download it? Rugged defense has downloads disabled.

When in doubt... ask the Kraut... you want the DNO? see attached. Found v3.71; incl. this one now in the .ZIP.

Klink, Oberst

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 1/15/2018 4:25:42 PM >

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Post #: 6
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/15/2018 4:31:56 PM   
Silvanski


Posts: 2506
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From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
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quote:

Oberst_Klink



When in doubt... ask the Kraut... you want the DNO? see attached. Found v3.71; incl. this one now in the .ZIP.

Klink, Oberst


I'm tempted to release my TOAW Redux version of GiO (with Soviet PO!!) if there is enough demand for it.
DMcB scenarios have always been passed around in dark alleyways


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Post #: 7
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/15/2018 4:42:04 PM   
Olorin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

I'm tempted to release my TOAW Redux version of GiO (with Soviet PO!!) if there is enough demand for it.



Yes, I demand it.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Please?



_____________________________

"Drang nach Osten"
--A TOAWIII AAR--

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Post #: 8
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/15/2018 5:38:46 PM   
Silvanski


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From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin
Yes, I demand it.
Please?


Let me get a second opinion...

What do you think Klink



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Post #: 9
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/15/2018 5:56:09 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin
Yes, I demand it.
Please?


Let me get a second opinion...

What do you think Klink



PO... well, if you got the time, sure go ahead. Did you have a look at v3.71 I dug out? Like with most other scenarios (at least that's my SOP), I check the AD, MRPB, other minor settings, such as AAA lethality, Hex conversion/Readiness/Movement costs, supply radius, extended supply and adjust it as good as it gets to take the new features into account.

Atm I am play-testing the latest Kharkov '43 of mine (still not happy with the TO&E of the German Div/Korps/Armee HQs though...) and preparing for the Tutorial '50s series... for the latter, nobody seems to be willing to answer even my map creation request :(

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 10
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/15/2018 6:00:33 PM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

PO... well, if you got the time, sure go ahead.


Red Army PO was set up years ago, and it works

quote:

Like with most other scenarios (at least that's my SOP), I check the AD, MRPB, other minor settings..


Same here, yes some minor tweaks have to be made...


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Post #: 11
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/15/2018 6:09:31 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

PO... well, if you got the time, sure go ahead.


Red Army PO was set up years ago, and it works

quote:

Like with most other scenarios (at least that's my SOP), I check the AD, MRPB, other minor settings..


Same here, yes some minor tweaks have to be made...


As per PM... supply and extended should be tested, Elmer vs Elmer; as well as the RR repair... that always seems to be the crux of those monsters...

I do suggest, if that's OK with thee, to combine our resources, ideas and so on. I am lucky that I can work from home 24/7 ;)

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 12
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/15/2018 6:31:06 PM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline 		The zip file you attached for DNO refers to a scenario document file that is mandatory reading for informed play and understanding, but there is no doc file in the zip file. Just the .sce and .bmp file are present.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by marion61 -- 1/15/2018 6:32:33 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/15/2018 6:39:13 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marion61

The zip file you attached for DNO refers to a scenario document file that is mandatory reading for informed play and understanding, but there is no doc file in the zip file. Just the .sce and .bmp file are present.


Patience, my young Jedi...attached. As the saying goes. Never doubt a Kraut!

Klink, Oberst

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 14
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/15/2018 7:21:51 PM   
odoakr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
When in doubt... ask the Kraut... you want the DNO? see attached. Found v3.71; incl. this one now in the .ZIP.


Thanks, buddy!

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 15
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/15/2018 9:59:12 PM   
Meyer1

 

Posts: 899
Joined: 2/9/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin
Yes, I demand it.
Please?


Let me get a second opinion...






You're ugly too

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Post #: 16
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/16/2018 5:18:49 PM   
nukkxx5058


Posts: 2932
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
Status: offline 		I found this thread comparing the two games but it's rather very negative for TOAW as it is from the WITE forum ...
Any comments ?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2476986&mpage=1&key=operational%2Cart%2Cwar�

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Post #: 17
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/16/2018 6:44:44 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

I found this thread comparing the two games but it's rather very negative for TOAW as it is from the WITE forum ...
Any comments ?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2476986&mpage=1&key=operational%2Cart%2Cwar�

It all boils down to taste, preference and what different game engines try to achieve, reflect. WitE has producion, it's operational/strategic, it focuses on one specific theatre, and it does a good job. TOAW, and again I have to point out that it is, after all, an operational wargame construction set, perfectly suited for...well, operations up to a specific length (incl. CFNA I might add). E.g. If you compare shorter scenarios in WitE, e.g. all 4 battles of Kharkov, the 2 battles of Kiev, Bargration... it ain't up to the job. TOAW however is, because of the scale and things like the event engine. As many of you should know by now, I love the operational stuff, as in manoeuvring battalions, regiments, the combined arms stuff TOAW offers and simulates nicely. I ain't care about detailed flyboys or tin cans on the oceans... :D

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 18
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/16/2018 8:41:30 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		This has gone over sooo many times. It's beating a dead horse.

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Post #: 19
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/16/2018 9:28:03 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

This has gone over sooo many times. It's beating a dead horse.

I didn't start the thread :P~~ I am keen to update my Kharkov '43 and release the next tutorials and I am happy as Larry, so to say.

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 20
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/17/2018 11:47:25 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


I am happy as Larry, so to say.

Klink, Oberst




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http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 21
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/17/2018 3:01:37 PM   
Dr. Foo


Posts: 666
Joined: 8/31/2004
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		I much prefer WiTE. If I am going to sit down and play the Eastern Front I play WiTE for everything else TOAW, I don't particularly like WiTW.

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Post #: 22
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/17/2018 6:27:00 PM   
nukkxx5058


Posts: 2932
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

I much prefer WiTE. If I am going to sit down and play the Eastern Front I play WiTE for everything else TOAW, I don't particularly like WiTW.

I really understand this and I tend to say that I fully agree and will probably do the same. WITE is perfect for eastern font full campaign (I'm not talking about smaller scenarios, I don't find them interesting). I hardly imagine running a full barbarossa campaign on TOAW ... but I'm new at TOAW so I might still change my mind.
I haven't yet play WITW (I just bought it during Christams sale). I should give it a try ...
I really lilke TOAW for smaller scenarios, and particluarly non-WW2 ones (Vietnam, middle east, WW1, cold war, etc)

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Post #: 23
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/18/2018 2:28:02 PM   
B455

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 2/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin
Yes, I demand it.
Please?


Let me get a second opinion...

What do you think Klink




Well I give you a third one. I approciate your effort to post a load of scenarios that you have archived. On the other hand, as a scenario-designer try-out myself, I feel that only designers should post and publish their designs ONCE they have playtested and adjusted their work for TOAW IV first. Also, as a player, I don´t want to waste my or my opponents time on unfinished or untested scenarios. Quality over quantity. I am currently upgrading one of my old scenarios (originally from TOAW I era, but patched and extensively tested for ACOW years ago) for TOAW IV and trying to learn new features of the game. I am currently playtesting and adjusting it myself, and certainly it has more work to do than just load up and play. Please, let scenario designers upgrade their designs and publish them when and if they feel ready.

Sorry for OFFTOPIC, but had to say my thoughts on this.

Regards,

B455

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Post #: 24
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/18/2018 4:40:30 PM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		Sorry for the hijack but are DmcB scenarios available for TOAW IV???

For the OP: TOAW>>>>WitE

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Post #: 25
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/18/2018 6:43:55 PM   
Silvanski


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From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2
Sorry for the hijack but are DmcB scenarios available for TOAW IV???

Only his El Alamain scenario survives in the official release

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Post #: 26
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/19/2018 2:59:25 AM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: B455... I feel that only designers should post and publish their designs ONCE they have playtested and adjusted their work for TOAW IV first


I appreciate your view on that. Note that many people have dropped out. I will not touch scenarios from people who are still actively involved designing and/or updating their scenarios. Several TOAW icons have resurfaced since the release of TOAW IV... Hpt Kunz, boonierat to name a few...

Modded scenarios have always been published with consent from the original designer, and full credit given of course.

vahauser is currently modding my mod of Europa 1947, original by Piero Falotti and I'm excited to see this scenario taken another step further




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Post #: 27
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/19/2018 3:14:18 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2
Sorry for the hijack but are DmcB scenarios available for TOAW IV???

Only his El Alamain scenario survives in the official release

There is also Sevastopol 1942 and Rundstedt's Plan Martin 1944.

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Post #: 28
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/19/2018 7:37:40 AM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski


quote:

ORIGINAL: B455... I feel that only designers should post and publish their designs ONCE they have playtested and adjusted their work for TOAW IV first


I appreciate your view on that. Note that many people have dropped out. I will not touch scenarios from people who are still actively involved designing and/or updating their scenarios. Several TOAW icons have resurfaced since the release of TOAW IV... Hpt Kunz, boonierat to name a few...

Modded scenarios have always been published with consent from the original designer, and full credit given of course.

vahauser is currently modding my mod of Europa 1947, original by Piero Falotti and I'm excited to see this scenario taken another step further





Silvanski

Is Pierro's WW1 masterpiece available for IV? Easily the best WW1 scen out there

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Post #: 29
RE: TOAW vs GG-WITE - 1/19/2018 9:38:55 AM   
Olorin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2
Sorry for the hijack but are DmcB scenarios available for TOAW IV???

Only his El Alamain scenario survives in the official release


Sevastopolis, Rundstedt's Paln Martin and Crusader are also in I think.

edit: I've been Crossed.

< Message edited by Olorin -- 1/19/2018 9:41:02 AM >

_____________________________

"Drang nach Osten"
--A TOAWIII AAR--

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Post #: 30
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