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RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/19/2018 12:35:47 AM   
Sugar

 

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In RL how many Germans would have been necessary to overrun the Brits? 1 additional Pz Div. (they had 21 in spring 41) and a few Jagdgeschwader I guess, and an undisturbed supply line after the fall of Malta. Stupid Nazis didn`t, they fought the war for political reasons, ignoring strat. requirements. (Just to clarify: there stupid for being Nazis, not for losing).

It`s of course questionable, if they could have won the war, but in this game Cairo is a stratical goal and therefore a necessary requirement for winning.

quote:

Would it be impossible? By using BBs to bombard the town hex to 0 and any naval unit to blockade the ports supply to Malta can be reduced to 0 so the AA there can not reinforce.
Of course, if the Allied player is just starring...

Why don`t you ever think about deniying them to let them bomb at will? The airfighting is one of the best mechanics I ever faced in a strategy game, it worked already fine in the predecessor, why shouldn't it work now?

The unbalance results from the sovyet weakness; they won`t be able to defend their objectives, nor will they be able to threaten them after losing.


(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 31
RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/19/2018 1:35:25 AM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

The opposite is true: the Germans massed their air units in Poland and France, with devastating effects. They failed to do so in NA, now you want the Axis player to repeat that failing?

To quote Rommel: "Even the bravest soldier is hit by a bomb"; in face of the Allies` air superiority of course.

Beside the fact that conquering Malta would be nearly impossible, the attack values of bombers have already been reduced. And by the way, it`s not impossible to stop bombing, air superiority can also be achieved by fighters. I managed to destroy the entire DAK including superior bomber formations by attacking into their assembly in several PbEMs. Next time a player is confronted with such circumstances he will undoubtly demand to reduce attack values of fighters, instead of asking how he can improve his gameplay.

In comparison to Breakthrough SoE, the numbers and attack values of tanks are also reduced, and the necessity to develop Inf. 3 for the SU leads together to the impossibility to counterattack prior to 43; if something is disturbing the balance in PbEMs (and it is imho in favour of the Axis), then that are the reasons.

My suggestions: reduce the number of german tac. bombers by 1 from the start including their force pool cap., add. 4 (3 for Brits and Italy) tanks to the force pool cap. of each major, delete heavy tanks, and reduce russian Inf. to 2 again, with the same values of every other nation. Maybe it would also be necessary to increase the attack values of tanks by 1.

This way the tanks would gain a more decisive role, like it was in the beginning of the war.


Sugar, Sugar, Sugar... Where do I even begin?

Let's start with a famous example of the limits of bombing: Stalingrad being bombed to hell until the rubbles became a better defensive terrain for the defender.

If your argument is that the air is just fine by saying 'I blew up the DAK as it spawns (and before a real battle could occur)', how is it demonstrative in any way that the balance is just fine? You could make the opposite case, that you are forced to act as such because of the unbalance in the mechanics and that acting as such is your only way out of an air showdown in the med. If there is only one way out, that's a red flag.

Here's where we agree:
a-Game as of now is Axis favoured (and will be more so with the sub change)
b-The USSR is too weak (and can't think of counter-attacks in any capacity before 1943)
c-Land force could be more important in offensives

Bonus agreement: I don't think we should too overtly impede concentration of air force.

Here's where we don't
d-bomber pack too much punch

A big part of (a) is (b).

Let's look at the reason why the USSR can't really counter attack before 1943. There's the infantry tech gap, that's a important one. But technically the shock army, mech inf and tanks should have parity or close by 1942 and these one should be able to be used in such a manner but they can't currently. One of the reason is that you don't have enough of them yet but another, and that's a big one, is that it's not safe for them to venture anywhere because of the German Airforce (my reason (d)). They have to stay in entrenchment, covered by AA and fighters and bid for time.

So let's look at what makes bomber powerful, with a particular interest for the German wing.

-Tac reduce entrenchment at level 2, allowing them to overwhelm enemy in great numbers in most situation. (Especially opposing airforce!)
-Intercepting bombers w escort barely impede the bomber ability to cause damage to units.
-Super HQ mitigate damage to bombers and escort

Let's expand on the last one. German HQ start with higher rating (in general) and start with a command tech edge over the allies on top of it. They face weak enemy at the start where they can accumulate exp quickly. Given the HQ exp acquisition scheme that requires inflicting more damage than you receive to gain exp. Allied HQ can be shut up from the exp game for long stretch of time which impedes their ability to mount a air defence (and also USSR ability to counter).

Now what do we do?

You suggested taking a plane out of the force pool and upping the tank stats. This would marginally impact the air game but introduce a great change to the land game. We'd have to run the test, but that sounds like creating more problems than it fixes. Namely, USSR wouldn't be any better for it because they wouldn't have the number of tanks to make use of this to put up a stronger resistance. They would likely worst of even if we eliminate the tech 3 requirement. The german army would have an airforce still 95% as destructive but stronger and more numerous tanks. Yikes.

If we go nip at the super HQ syndrome it might mitigate the damage output of bomber without having to overhaul the whole stats scheme of units. Air superiority would have more an attrition component on the german side. The drawback is that we'd still get the huge NA airfield and maybe more so because you'd need more to do the same thing.

What if we turn them into flying artillery? Concentration of air would still happen but you wouldn't see 10 bomber in NA because the front there wouldn't warrant having that many. Sealion or Barbarossa though? Go crazy, targets and land units-a-plenty to overrun the suppressed unit. Another big thing: you wouldn't be able to use them to instawipe the opponent airforce and turn more the air battle into an attrition battle fought in the skies. The drawback is that overall damage potential of combatants would be reduced and would probably require to return the tank stats to Breakthrough-level like you suggested.

And with stronger tanks then maybe anti-tank tech suddenly becomes a relevant tech again...

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 32
RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/19/2018 1:56:27 AM   
Taxman66


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What about keeping the USSR INF Weapons situation (i.e. they need 3 levels) the same... but give them a starting chit in it? And/or maybe a starting chit in Spying/Research?

The NA situation is begging for a more limited supply rule(s). Even with Malta taken out (which, btw, is so easy to do it's silly) there would be a shipping limit on what could get through and throwing more HQs into NA wouldn't/shouldn't automatically solve the problem.

----
However, as I said before, this is a game and the designers want a (near) equal chance for either side to win the war. If we made things historical (minus the FUBAR decisions) there would no longer be an equal chance for either side to win. The victory conditions would have to change to be more along the lines of 'When the Axis are defeated'.

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(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 33
RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/19/2018 2:24:49 AM   
Leadwieght

 

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It seems we are discussing two related, but distinct issues:

1. Are bomber units too powerful TACTICALLY vs. land units? In other words are they capable of doing so much damage to land units that it creates highly unrealistic results?
2. Are they STRATEGICALLY too flexible, such that a concentration of air power is so easy and so deadly that it creates highly unrealistic results?

The rule changes since the first release have attenuated bombers' tactical strength somewhat and limited their strategic flexibility.

I'd argue against further waekening bombers' tactical punch, largely because doing so could easily make Sealion virtually impossible.
And a game without the realistic possibility of Sealion is MUCH easier for the Allied player.
Too much easier IMO.

So, on the tactical side I'd suggest either strengthening the defensive effects of AA upgrades, or better yet, allowing land units to upgrade to Level-3 AA, instead of the current cap of level-2.
In that way, the Luftwaffe could still be a potent force early in the war, but would gradually become less powerful as the Allies beefed up their AA defenses. But the Allied numerical advantage would, I think, give the Axis less benefit from the raised AA cap later in the war

On the strategic side, I'd suggest making Operational movement of air units a little less flexible.
Perhaps air units should only be allowed to Operate to City, Town, or Settlement hexes, and not to adjacent hexes.
Perhaps air units should only be allowed to Operate into Cities/Towns/Settlements with a supply level of 5 or higher.
(in either case they could move freely to other hexes after being Operated)

Those sort of restrictions on Operational movement would limit some of the more blatantly ahistorical possibilities that we've all seen:
Like the entire Luftwaffe appearing in Libya two months after the fall of France, or half the Luftwaffe pops up to Northern Finland for the summer to take Murmansk and is back south in time to help seize Leningrad or Moscow

Such moves of vast amounts of airpower to distant, sparsely inhabited regions would not be impossible (nor should they be), but such moves would be slower and a bit riskier.

I take the point (forget who made it) that we don't want the rules to force the Germans, for instance, to make the same mistakes they made in the real war, but surely one of the reasons the Germans did not send huge airfleets to Libya was the lack of facilities and the difficulty of supplying them once they got there.


(in reply to cato13)
Post #: 34
RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/19/2018 4:10:19 AM   
Sugar

 

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Gentleman, I highly appreciate this discussion, and I agree with most of you that the commitment of the german tac. and med. bombers is one of the issues, and the weakness of the SU is another one. Nevertheless I don`t like the idea to cripple one of the most valuable branches - especially considering it will be necessary to turn the tide for the Allies - more than absolutely necessary.

In addition to some thoughts I´d suggest to
- cut the range of both tac. and med. bombers by 1, in order to get them more easily into the range of fighters
- reduce the starting units for Germany by 1 tac., in addition to cutting their forcepool by 2 (would be 20% enough for you KZ? )
- add 1 tank instead, and 1 additional to their force cap
- add 1 defense value to russian tanks to reflect their historical superiority (or maybe 0.5, if 1 turns out to be too much)
- increase costs of tac. + med. bombers by 50, as well as their costs of operating
- add 1 brit fighter, appearing after the fall of France, in order to represent their ability to deliver a greater deal to the Luftwaffe

(in reply to Leadwieght)
Post #: 35
RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/19/2018 9:56:57 AM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leadwieght

I'd argue against further waekening bombers' tactical punch, largely because doing so could easily make Sealion virtually impossible.
And a game without the realistic possibility of Sealion is MUCH easier for the Allied player.
Too much easier IMO.



That's a different discussion but I wouldn't mind making Sealion harder, while upping its reward possibility. Right now sealion can almost be accomplished on the cheap, on a snap decision, bomb to hell, paradrop, capture port, transport troop in. Amphibious transport play a support role.

Turn bombers into artillery, you suddenly more troops on the ground at launch to take advantage. Amphibious and logistic tech become more important and probably would need to be invested in advance.

To raise the stakes I'd put a condition to UK moving their capital to Canada to: 'The USA or USSR must be in the war'. Basically the thinking is, if they get overrun and no other allied major are activated they would sue for peace and Germany wins a 'Major Victory'. After all they couldn't guess Germany was going to attack the USSR or if the USA would ever get off their asses, it's not too far fetched that they would strike a deal to preserve most of their oversea empire.

That way, it becomes a gambit to end the game early for the Axis player (a la SC 1 might I had!). To go for the jugular so to speak!

(in reply to Leadwieght)
Post #: 36
RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/19/2018 6:44:02 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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quote:

On massing of air units, and especially in North Africa, has your opponent brought extra HQs there? And if so how did this strategy possibly hinder his efforts in the USSR? I'm just asking as it would be good to have a fuller and bigger picture idea on what sort of long term effects may have been in play, as well as if the new HQ attachment rules for air units is having a bit of a desired effect for situations like this or not. Bill


Bill I think the Axis has 2 German HQ 1 Italian HQ maybe 3 German in 1940 in Libya. With all the air power in Libya it doesn't take long to control Cairo Suez. I send additional Anti Air / Carrier /all fighters to no avail. Skilled Axis player will employ 2-4 massive attacks and wipe all allied Troops out. Then its a one front war. Many people mass deploy the airforce in Libya and could give you more information on how they do it. The people who incorporate mass deployment will argue vigorously that it is fine because its the key to their success.

Obviously the entire Axis Air force in Northern Africa was a logistical impossibility in 1940.


This takes away from the Axis attack in the USSR campaign for a few turns. ALL USSR reinforcements near border are wiped out by turn two of Axis invasion, so there is only multiple corps/ a few army/1 5 HQ/ 3 light tanks and 1 fighter left. I only buy corps prior to invasion because there are so many cities to protect with little $$$. Axis players will buy mechs/cavalry/para to race to unprotected cites.

The reinforcements are actually a huge asset to Axis and negative for the USSR. I appreciate the USSR had a large amount of troops near the border at the start of the war, but the reinforcements are primarily air/HQ/ Mech in SC that do zero damage to attacker and provide large experience boosts. Some say not to accept Baltic states, I haven't tried that.

I think limiting air deployment would greatly improve the PBEM experience and add another strategic component to the game.

More people would be interested in PBEM.

Maybe AA limits could be expanded from 2 to 3 on all troops and/or the range of anti-air increased to 2 at 50% in 2.

Thanks





(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 37
RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/19/2018 8:42:22 PM   
James Taylor

 

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Examine the dynamics.

A player brings 4 HQs to the desert, as Axis(2G & 2 It) and is allowed 8 air units. Let's say for balance its 4 bombers and 4 fighters.

The UK player usually has 2 HQs early in the game deployed in Egypt which allows 4 air units. On the defensive, I'd say fighters, do you see the parity?

Imagine other combinations, but capped at 2 per HQ the defense has a chance and in places like France & USSR the limitations are irrelevant, so Sealion is still viable.

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Post #: 38
RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/20/2018 8:47:11 PM   
Guderian1940

 

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I had a post previously about Air power concentration in North Africa. The changes made to the HQ Supply of Air units did little if anything (Kudos for trying) to the possibility of loading up North Africa, with Air units or ground, for a quick victory. You bring in 2 Ge HQ's and bombers, Fighters and quickly destroy the Allies. Send them early, then there is time to get back to USSR. Or at least within a couple of turns of the Invasion. Timing is important, Egypt, Iraq, Persia and all North A. falls to the Axis. Nothing the Allies do will stop it. You only need them for a few turns till the combat power of the Allies is broken. Only a mop up is needed after that. Time to physically move to get to Persia is the big hurdle. No need to waste combat power on that. Of course the Italians can help as well.

Major weakness in the game is the supply rules. Based on towns and cities is not very workable. Seen an HQ get reinforcements in a desert hex with no towns or friendly unit in sight. Without a condition of a supply net, just basing it on a hex, a route to a supply sources, or at least a few towns cities linked by rail, would go a long way to remedy this situation. No supply net you go to 0 including HQ's. Why do out of supply HQ.s still give supply to unit?

In regards to powerful Air units. That's what you get when you can just keep hitting a unit till it is gone. What ever happened to odds ratio attacks instead of this piecemeal continuous attack system till a unit is dead. Any position can be broken you just need to concentrate. Changing the strengths only requires you to concentrate more to achieve the results you want. Once you figure this out your Gold.

The scope of this game is awesome. Diplomacy, Production, Strategic decisions are all very good. Weaknesses are, Supply, Combat system and last but no least non "simultaneous" turns. Took me awhile to get my head around that. If these would be corrected in any subsequent version, you would get a 10/10 from me. Instated of maybe a 7 which is pretty good considering.

IMHO

(in reply to Sugar)
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RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/22/2018 3:44:28 AM   
Leadwieght

 

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Replying to KZ on Sealion--I can't see how the Germans EVER succeed if tac. and medium bomber units are altered and given the same characteristics as artillery and don't have the possibility causing SP losses or only a slight possibility of doing so.

Let's say there's a British corps in Dover. The Luftwaffe hammers its morale to a low level and reduces its entrenchment to zero. But the Germans have only three or maybe four attacks from offshore ampib units in which to cause 10 SPs of losses. And only one of those ambips get ashore--the remainder are still at sea at the end of the turn in plain view of the RAF and RN. The German player can try to supplement with paras, but only if the Allied player hasn't put AA or Garrisons behind the Corps.

My point is that it would be much too easy for the Allied player to forestall Sealion with minimal investment. It takes away a huge elemnt of doubt from the game.




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RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/22/2018 4:22:17 AM   
Sugar

 

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We`re not talking about an unplayable game, gents. I played 51 PbEMs, with 4 further still going on, and I managed to win them all, on either side.
The Axis is in favour by 60:40 I guess, that`s not justifying a complete change in gameplay.

In fact, if the Allies are able to survive until 44, the tide will undoubtly turn. Don`t forget the Allies` carriers, allthough not very efficient against land units, they are at least against aircraft.

Reduce Axis bomberpool, reduce their range, increase costs of buying in favour of tanks instead, and strengthen the SU slightly.

(in reply to Leadwieght)
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RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/22/2018 12:27:04 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leadwieght

Replying to KZ on Sealion--I can't see how the Germans EVER succeed if tac. and medium bomber units are altered and given the same characteristics as artillery and don't have the possibility causing SP losses or only a slight possibility of doing so.

Let's say there's a British corps in Dover. The Luftwaffe hammers its morale to a low level and reduces its entrenchment to zero. But the Germans have only three or maybe four attacks from offshore ampib units in which to cause 10 SPs of losses. And only one of those ambips get ashore--the remainder are still at sea at the end of the turn in plain view of the RAF and RN. The German player can try to supplement with paras, but only if the Allied player hasn't put AA or Garrisons behind the Corps.

My point is that it would be much too easy for the Allied player to forestall Sealion with minimal investment. It takes away a huge elemnt of doubt from the game.



That's not the only point of entry. The UK players would still have to protect the coast line from Plymouth to London.

I would be fine if the window for Sealion would basically require destroying the BEF and overcommitment in other fields (tech, diplo, egypt).

(in reply to Leadwieght)
Post #: 42
RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/22/2018 11:02:31 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

We`re not talking about an unplayable game, gents. I played 51 PbEMs, with 4 further still going on, and I managed to win them all, on either side.
The Axis is in favour by 60:40 I guess, that`s not justifying a complete change in gameplay.

In fact, if the Allies are able to survive until 44, the tide will undoubtly turn. Don`t forget the Allies` carriers, allthough not very efficient against land units, they are at least against aircraft.

Reduce Axis bomberpool, reduce their range, increase costs of buying in favour of tanks instead, and strengthen the SU slightly.


Sugar it is not, at least for me, just a question of game balance. It is more a question about some semblance of historical accuracy. Air power was extremely important in WWII, but it was not the be all and end all that it tends to be in this game. There needs, in my opinion, to be more balance between the air and land components.

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 1/22/2018 11:05:15 PM >

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 43
RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/22/2018 11:58:07 PM   
Sugar

 

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Yes, that's why I'm demanding to weaken numbers of bombers slightly in favour of tanks. But both will still be needed, since they are the key elements in operational manouevre warfare in the european theatre.

Tanks are not able to stand on their own, their punch has been reduced, as well as their numbers and mobility. If your changing the role of tac. bombers to arty, it will be simply impossible to penetrate any fortified line even with increased numbers of tanks, and that would be completely unhistorical.




(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 44
RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/24/2018 3:42:12 AM   
Leadwieght

 

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As I said, I would favor keeping bombers' punch vs ground units the same as now, while making it (eventually) easier to defend against them by upping the potential AA defense of ground units and (somehow) making it a bit harder to send air units instantly, en masse, to sparsely populated regions with scanty infrastructure.

I think there would still be ample room for strategic and tactical subtlety, without some of the more wildly ahistorical gambits that are now possible.


(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 45
RE: Air power still seems overpowered - 1/24/2018 6:17:28 AM   
Sugar

 

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The first turn of the game has to follow the historical setting, from then on it should be the decision of the player, where to put his investments or even concentrate forces.

The issue is, that it isn't somehow punishing to favour NA instead of Russia for the Axis. There's no real time pressure, and the SU is simply to weak to deliver any threat, even in 42 or 43. I already complained about this issue in another thread, even at really good circumstances they`re not able to do a scratch on equivalent units; and that is really unhistoric.

In SC Breakthrough SoE Germany had a forcepool of 10 tanks and 6 bombers (there were no heavy tanks or med. bombers), no DAK, and the Inf. lvl. was capped at 3 for every nation, with no extra russian penalty. That game was very well balanced, allthough of course the better players concentrated their bombers in NA. Flak was completely useless, other than now.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4383086&mpage=1�

< Message edited by Sugar -- 1/24/2018 6:25:21 AM >

(in reply to Leadwieght)
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