RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome)

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/29/2018 11:15:40 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

Slightly off topic.....what's the "13" in your signature line?

Figured it is appropriate to go with the name "HardLuckYetAgain" to have the number 13. Plus it is the cabin number of the girl firing the Tommy gun in the photo to the left ;-)

It's all coming together for me now!

Really? It is clear as mud to me ;-). Thank you Dave

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 1/30/2018 2:44:26 AM >

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/29/2018 11:18:16 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Well, I have finished the air war so give or take a few more losses in the coming battles this is what I got after all air raiding has been completed.

48 German Lost

5,569 Soviet destroyed

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Post #: 62

RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/29/2018 11:37:52 PM

smokindave34

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84

That is only slightly fewer kills than I had on my whole first turn on all fronts lol

Of course that was before I had any clue on how to efficiently move bases forward etc. but this is (to me mr noob) interesting stuff. Thanks, look forward to the continuation (sleep is a bit of a lame excuse, the war does not wait! ;) )

Welllllllllll, I went to bed, gave the wife some attention and tried to sleep. I couldn't........ So I came back to the computer to try and work on the South's movement. I will give the overall picture of the south (it isn't done yet since I have a lot of misc movement but my grey matter muscle memory is coming back to me on what the Germans need to do. I can say 100% having "Better CV" is making this easy for me to tell when a unit will route and how much I need for an attack. So Far I have been able to get most routes into the swamp (where if they rally those tanks will take forever to get out of there or M60 will have to use rail or disband them). Without further ado here is what the South looks like as I head to bed. If people want to see details on the different combat I can probably post that too.

3 of these pockets should hold but you never know. M60 May get a lucky roll. Don't laugh I have seen it happen against me. Plus M60 and others that have played me know this setup in the South. If it wasn't for a pesky mech unit I would have had the large tank formation cut off from supply too. But I had a pesky Mech unit that in almost all other games routes or shatters on first hit. This one mech unit took a bit to get rid of :(

Let me know your thoughts

If I opened up that turn from my opponent I'd probably resign from the game. Not sure what you have in store for the north and center but seriously...... you have almost entirely wiped out every unit south of the marshes. It would be pointless to continue.

That's a compliment by the way.

< Message edited by smokindave34 -- 1/29/2018 11:38:21 PM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 63

RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 1:02:20 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
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quote:

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84

That is only slightly fewer kills than I had on my whole first turn on all fronts lol

Of course that was before I had any clue on how to efficiently move bases forward etc. but this is (to me mr noob) interesting stuff. Thanks, look forward to the continuation (sleep is a bit of a lame excuse, the war does not wait! ;) )

Welllllllllll, I went to bed, gave the wife some attention and tried to sleep. I couldn't........ So I came back to the computer to try and work on the South's movement. I will give the overall picture of the south (it isn't done yet since I have a lot of misc movement but my grey matter muscle memory is coming back to me on what the Germans need to do. I can say 100% having "Better CV" is making this easy for me to tell when a unit will route and how much I need for an attack. So Far I have been able to get most routes into the swamp (where if they rally those tanks will take forever to get out of there or M60 will have to use rail or disband them). Without further ado here is what the South looks like as I head to bed. If people want to see details on the different combat I can probably post that too.

3 of these pockets should hold but you never know. M60 May get a lucky roll. Don't laugh I have seen it happen against me. Plus M60 and others that have played me know this setup in the South. If it wasn't for a pesky mech unit I would have had the large tank formation cut off from supply too. But I had a pesky Mech unit that in almost all other games routes or shatters on first hit. This one mech unit took a bit to get rid of :(

Let me know your thoughts

If I opened up that turn from my opponent I'd probably resign from the game. Not sure what you have in store for the north and center but seriously...... you have almost entirely wiped out every unit south of the marshes. It would be pointless to continue.

That's a compliment by the way.

Thank you Dave but it really isn't anything special. Just a great deal of hours went into perfecting it a few years ago. It is a little easier now in the south with the Cav unit with mega MP's. The next post will have the North front on it.

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 1:15:42 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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North Front semi final. Still have some moving of units up here but wanted to show the lay of the land. Please note that I got greedy on the last NKVD unit which routed out of the pocket because I used a "full" division instead of breaking it down into regiments. Oh well. It was the "only" unit to escape circled in red. All other divisions have been nicely stacked circled in yellow at route points for the SS to pick them up for their SPA interment camps for re-settlement. All route points are almost to capacity too ;-). Also note the "pink" circle. These are HQ's and 9 times out of ten I leave them there since those are needed in the defense of Leningrad. M60 is going to have to displace them if he wants them ;-). I'm thinking about just leaving the other hexes with HQ's in it too, but that may be a little mean since he won't have any HQ's to rebuild the defense towards Leningrad

Again the goal is to herd and capture (exterminate) the Russian. Even in the South I should be able to get most of the units that went into the swamp if they don't rally. In the North I had one NKVD regiment. In the center I had 1 AT brigade. Other than that every unit was herded into a route point for capture. Next up is Center.

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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 1/30/2018 1:24:09 AM >

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 1:35:53 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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This isn't my final position since I still have movement to do but it is close.

So highlighted in yellow was the only unit to get out of my grasp in the Center but not by much ;-). The units circled in Red are HQ units & airbases that were sent packing to the elimination of the center pocket quicker. Units in pink are route points filled to capacity. Also note that I get rid of the entrenchment levels to make sure this pocket has no issues on turn 2 to clear.

Even notice that I go after the 1=2 Soviet unit in between the Yellow and Red Circles. Getting units is so important to me. Now don't get me wrong, if I need to get something I have no problem routing units out of the way. But I have an agenda and a time table of units needed every turn.

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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 1/30/2018 1:42:05 AM >

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 3:12:37 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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FINAL RESULTS for Germans Turn 1 for the Ground losses are;

9,589 German

137,094 Soviet

*****my numbers on ground loses are a bit higher than normal along with higher than normal tank loses. I will keep an eye on these throughout the game.

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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 1/30/2018 3:52:37 AM >

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 3:13:48 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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FINAL RESULTS for Germans Turn 1 for the Air losses are;

53 German

5,714 Soviet

I believe if I ever did this again I can get another 150-200 aircraft after learning a few things this go around :( After the Soviets logistics phase those numbers will easily climb into the 6,000 range for sure.

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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 1/30/2018 3:16:22 AM >

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 3:41:14 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Conclusion of turn 1.

I have made more errors than I care to admit. Yes, I know you are sitting on the other side of the screen will say otherwise but the little items add up over time. Time is a luxury that the Germans have little of. These mistakes of using the wrong unit in the correct place, or is that the correct place with the wrong unit (scratches head). Anyway what I mean is that I moved a unit attached to one HQ to an area where the HQ wasn't going. This will equate into lost MP's and/or expenditure of points to change HQ, not good. I'm also rusty playing the Germans trying to remember things on the fly which I knew before. I believe I have remember many since it so recent but it only takes one screw up to mess things up. Anyway the game is underway and yes it is a painful opening for the Soviets. I don't envy M60's turns what so ever knowing full well the full mettle that will need to go into his turns. Personally I don't think I could do it if I were him. The defense drives me bonkers, now offense I can see clear as day ;-).

In closing the first German turn out I wish M60 "Good Luck" and I truly hope he pulls this out as a win. To all that have to put up with me on the forums I thank you for reading my ramblings even if they don't make sense. Thank you all

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 7:44:44 AM

tyronec

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quote:

53 German

5,714 Soviet

I believe if I ever did this again I can get another 150-200 aircraft after learning a few things this go around :( After the Soviets logistics phase those numbers will easily climb into the 6,000 range for sure.

Would be impressed if you could get another 200, have not been able to top the 5,700s.

Interesting opening, trapping another 10 or so units in the South is a big plus. The cost has been a little less progress with AGN and too many armored units down south so will be interesting to see if the rail lines can be fully cleared for AGN and AGC over the next few turns. In a previous thread you railed PG2 back up north so will wait to see if that happens.
I also note that for AGN the rail line going north and east from the swamp hex has not been cleared so presumably you are not going that way. If the Soviets get lucky with a rally can they flip some of the rail line to Riga or is it beyond their maximum MPs ?

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 8:33:25 AM

SparkleyTits

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

too many armored units down south so will be interesting to see if the rail lines can be fully cleared for AGN and AGC over the next few turns.

Might be worth bearing in mind with that opening Kiev could be overwhelmed quickly if given priority so the 2nd atleast in theory could be somewhere around Bryansk as the FBD's close in at Vibetsk ready to coordinate just as things start to ramp up

< Message edited by SparkleyTits -- 1/30/2018 8:36:54 AM >

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Post #: 71

RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 9:07:52 AM

tyronec

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

too many armored units down south so will be interesting to see if the rail lines can be fully cleared for AGN and AGC over the next few turns.

Might be worth bearing in mind with that opening Kiev could be overwhelmed quickly if given priority so the 2nd atleast in theory could be somewhere around Bryansk as the FBD's close in at Vibetsk ready to coordinate just as things start to ramp up

I don't think PG3 & PG4 are strong enough on their own to keep the rail lines clear through Pskov and Smolensk for the next few moves, however that would be for the strategy I normally use and HardLuck may be doing something different. Taking PG2 up through Kiev is fine to join the fight for Moscow from around T8 but it could leave Axis a bit short around T4-6.

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 1:09:43 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

53 German

5,714 Soviet

I believe if I ever did this again I can get another 150-200 aircraft after learning a few things this go around :( After the Soviets logistics phase those numbers will easily climb into the 6,000 range for sure.

Would be impressed if you could get another 200, have not been able to top the 5,700s.

I didn't study it hard at the time I was doing my turn but I had an extra airbase that was appropriate to transfer bombers in to to hit more bases around Leningrad and/or Smolensk(instead of the long runs they did from where they were at with bad results(at least that is what I got when they did their runs this time, I had one long run hit for 13 planes, lol). With good rolls the bombers could have done more runs closer to the target. Of course it could all be just a pipe dream but I did make a mental note of it.

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 1:12:09 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

53 German

Interesting opening, trapping another 10 or so units in the South is a big plus. The cost has been a little less progress with AGN and too many armored units down south so will be interesting to see if the rail lines can be fully cleared for AGN and AGC over the next few turns. In a previous thread you railed PG2 back up north so will wait to see if that happens.

To early to tell, maybe I will rail it back north, maybe it will stay in the south. :). They are my likable Panzers to get the job done.

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 1:17:59 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

53 German

5,714 Soviet

I believe if I ever did this again I can get another 150-200 aircraft after learning a few things this go around :( After the Soviets logistics phase those numbers will easily climb into the 6,000 range for sure.

I also note that for AGN the rail line going north and east from the swamp hex has not been cleared so presumably you are not going that way. If the Soviets get lucky with a rally can they flip some of the rail line to Riga or is it beyond their maximum MPs ?

That isn't the end photo but more of 3/4's done photo of the North. The Soviets will rally, or at least they always seem to rally on me when they are against me ;-P. But they should not have sufficient MP's to hit the converted rail hexes I will be converting the next turn. That is my hope, but if my calculations are correct they won't be able to. Also all territory not in ZOC of Soviet unit gets converted to German hex

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 1:26:43 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

53 German

Interesting opening, trapping another 10 or so units in the South is a big plus. The cost has been a little less progress with AGN and too many armored units down south so will be interesting to see if the rail lines can be fully cleared for AGN and AGC over the next few turns. In a previous thread you railed PG2 back up north so will wait to see if that happens.

To early to tell, maybe I will rail it back north, maybe it will stay in the south. :). They are my likable Panzers to get the job done.

I think I'm going to color code PG2's middle color to "blood red" instead of the crappy aqua it is now :-)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 1/30/2018 1:27:11 PM >

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 2:02:06 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

53 German
5,714 Soviet
I believe if I ever did this again I can get another 150-200 aircraft after learning a few things this go around :( After the Soviets logistics phase those numbers will easily climb into the 6,000 range for sure.

Would be impressed if you could get another 200, have not been able to top the 5,700s.

I am with HardLuckYetAgain here - and I hope he will forgive me for temporarily hijacking the AAR. But here is my favourite example of one thing I developed for my opening turning.

I empty 2 LW of aircraft and move it over the Dvina with the Panzers before flying in some fresh fighters as escorts from there. There is not a lot of fuel in the base - but the 10SchLG2 of old men in biplanes does not need a lot of fuel. So flying them in means they get over 300 kills on their own in the airbases just near the Dvina - with the escorts getting quite a few kills too. And 2LW is then availiable as a staging base for bombing raids to Leningrad and further. (It could even be used to air transport troops to north of the Dvina on turn 1!) In effect I have got to the point where I can use the tac/dive bombers to exterminate the airbases not only as far as the Dvina and Dnepr but beyond - leaving the level bombers to bomb Moscow, Kharkhov and further afield. I even find all airbases in range of tacs/dive bombers get to zero aircraft and I still have some tacs/dive bombers left over.

This is my highest score in v1.11.00

I got over 6,400 in v1.10.00. I know v1.11.01 has reduced the effectiveness of many Axis tac/dive bombers - but I have little doubt there is much more optimisation to be done.

Interestingly if this is WitE2 I would not be practising the opening set up but would ask HLYA just to copy his air directives for me so that I could replicate it exactly. I would then spend my time trying to optimise it even further as I need no time just to copy it. So I expect WitE2 will end up with many having exactly the same air openings and an ever increasing super-optimisation by all. And presumably developers nerfing it correspondingly every version.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 1/30/2018 2:19:00 PM >

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Post #: 77

RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 2:15:00 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

53 German
5,714 Soviet
I believe if I ever did this again I can get another 150-200 aircraft after learning a few things this go around :( After the Soviets logistics phase those numbers will easily climb into the 6,000 range for sure.

Would be impressed if you could get another 200, have not been able to top the 5,700s.

I am with HardLuckYetAgain here - and I hope he will forgive me for temporarily hijacking the AAR. But here is my favourite example of one thing I developed for my opening turning.

I empty 2 LW of aircraft and move it over the Dvina with the Panzers before flying in some fresh fighters as escorts from there. There is not a lot of fuel in the base - but the 10SchLG2 of old men in biplanes does not need a lot of fuel. So flying them in means they get over 300 kills on their own in the airbases just near the Dvina - with the escorts getting quite a few kills too. And 2LW is then availiable as a staging base for bombing raids to Leningrad and further. In effect I have got to the point where I can use the tac/dive bombers to exterminate the airbases not only as far as the Dvina and Dnepr but beyond - leaving the level bombers to bomb Moscow, Kharkhov and further afield. I even find all airbases in range of tacs/dive bombers get to zero aircraft and I still have some tacs/dive bombers left over.

This is my highest score in v1.11.00

I got over 6,400 in v1.10.00. I know v1.11.01 has reduced the effectiveness of many Axis tac/dive bombers - but I have little doubt there is much more optimisation to be done.

Interestingly if this is WitE2 I would not be practising the opening set up but would ask HLYA just to copy his air directives for me so that I could replicate it exactly. I would then spend my time trying to optimise it even further as I need no time just to copy it. So I expect WitE will end up with many having exactly the same air openings and an ever increasing super-optimisation by all. And presumably developers nerfing it correspondingly every version.

It is all good and is a great example and thank you for this. I encourage people to post items such as this so all may benefit. I used to do 3,000 to 4,000k aircraft kills and be happy. But in the last year I revised that thinking. But yes everyone is free to give excellent information as this, I highly encourage it to make us all better players.

Now having said that I do think the aircraft kills for the Germans are a bit overboard. I have mentioned it in the past and again here. Gotta run to the Doctor so cutting this short and will pick it back up when I return.

Again thank you Telemecus

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 5:32:01 PM

VigaBrand

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How could you move your bomber so far and not used up the miles? Did it changed in the last patches?

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 5:42:13 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand
How could you move your bomber so far and not used up the miles? Did it changed in the last patches?

A few rules for how you move airgroups in your game

1. Never leave them in an airbase while moving them overground
2. Never leave them in an airbase while moving them overground!
3. NEVER LEAVE THEM IN AN AIRBASE WHILE MOVING THEM OVERGROUND!!!

Try always to move airbases empty (no aircraft) and then air transfer airgroups from other bases to it. This airgroup arrived at the northern bank of the Dvina by air transfer and started bombing with only 1% miles flown.

If you move an airgroup overground in an airbase it will arrive with 15% or more miles flown just by going overground. That is half the miles you have for airbase bombing on other turns. That is not an air force, that is a ground force.

Historically air forces did move airbase to airbase by flying - not by being packed up in a lorry and driven overground. The RAF used women pilots almost exclusively for this job. For many aircraft being moved by road also meant detaching wings - which damaged their structural integrity if they were not built that way.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 1/30/2018 6:00:58 PM >

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Post #: 80

RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 5:42:26 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

How could you move your bomber so far and not used up the miles? Did it changed in the last patches?

have an airbase that you either send to reserver aircraft or transfer to another base that you want to free up all planes from the base. Then move(by rail or normal mp's) that freed up airbase to where you need it. Then transfer planes onto the new base. The transferred planes in will have only ~1%-2% miles flown. (been that way and always could do)

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 5:58:20 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Interestingly if this is WitE2 I would not be practising the opening set up but would ask HLYA just to copy his air directives for me so that I could replicate it exactly. I would then spend my time trying to optimise it even further as I need no time just to copy it. So I expect WitE2 will end up with many having exactly the same air openings and an ever increasing super-optimisation by all. And presumably developers nerfing it correspondingly every version.

I think I still have the highest so far over there(posted on the forum that is). I was able to get higher and have learned a great deal. But WITE 2.0 doesn't like the MAC bootcamp Windows version and me testing things take forever since a restart takes a good 2+ minutes on the game :(. Hard to save/quit try something else to see the results when it takes a bit to do. I may just buy a PC laptop to get around the situation I have with the game so far so I can test things faster. BUT, I absolutely LOVE the game. It is a WET DREAM come true ;-)

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/30/2018 6:02:43 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand
How could you move your bomber so far and not used up the miles? Did it changed in the last patches?

A few rules for how you move airgroups in your game

1. Never leave them in an airbase while moving them overground
2. Never leave them in an airbase while moving them overground!
3. NEVER LEAVE THEM IN AN AIRBASE WHILE MOVING THEM OVERGROUND!!!

Telemecus;

Maybe a number 4 should be added pointing to #1 ;-P

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/31/2018 2:36:13 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Now the "lull" begins before things heat up again in a few turns. The storm continues its track east.

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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 1/31/2018 2:38:44 PM >

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/31/2018 2:37:58 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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In all my games I have always set the following goals to be accomplished. To be honest it is more of a pipe dream but at least there are goals ;-)

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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 1/31/2018 2:41:03 PM >

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/31/2018 3:04:19 PM

Telemecus

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In older versions it could be done

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/31/2018 3:16:20 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

In older versions it could be done

I know it could be done in the old days and probably by someone pretty skilled today. I'm sure Tyronec and yourself could do it today. But I'm just not that skilled to do something like this in your photo especially considering the new supply restrictions and HQ BU's costs in place today along with more skilled opponents.

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/31/2018 3:24:52 PM

Telemecus

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Yes - and that was done when bombers could fly fuel and with any miles flown already! Pretty to look at but not realistic.

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/31/2018 3:47:14 PM

tyronec

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Here's my prediction for your max expansion in '41, assuming top quality play by both of you.

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RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 1/31/2018 11:32:55 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Here's my prediction for your max expansion in '41, assuming top quality play by both of you.

I believe you are giving me too much credit on where I will get to. But thank you. I will try my hardest to accomplish the blue line at a minimum. But in all honesty I think I have my work cut out for me. M60 is a very good player.

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