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The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/3/2018 11:47:19 PM

spence

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The Japanese Army in particular and the IJN (more occasionally than the IJA due to the circumstances of its combats) often treated its prisoners with less than whatever was written into "World Law" (the Geneva Convention).

Yet the IJA was heralded for its very civilized treatment of POWs during the Russo-Japanese War and in WW1.

In WW2 the IJA and to a lesser extent the IJN experimented (scientifically supposedly) on enemy POWs and by forcing them to perform militarily significant constructions (the Burma Railway cost 90,000 POWs AND just as many Thai citizens (theoretically IJ Allies).

I can't find much in the Code of Bushido that justifies the way the Japanese behaved towards their enemies. Can you?

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/3/2018 11:53:04 PM

witpqs

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I have read that there was a propagandized version of Bushido code used on the Japanese population in WWII, and of course it permeated the military too. So as far as I know, *not* real Bushido.

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 12:05:55 AM

Big B

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The Code of Bushido is Bullshido - it was used to justify unimaginable cruelty to the defenseless in WW2.
If there was any actual justice at the end of WW2, those who hid behind Bushido would be hung as criminals after the war - as I believe thousands were.
As a point of reference, when the Western Allies closed in on Germany in 1945, - allied POW's wrote about conditions in camps improving...when the same happened in Asia/Pacific, the Japanese were documented to execute (often by setting on fire) Allied POW's.
If there was ever a sorry state of humanity displayed in WW2 - it was offered under the code of Bushido.

This is a toxic subject today, but if anyone wants to really know what happened in Asia/Pacific during the war - from Black Christmas in Hong Kong 1941 - to the end in 1945 - there is plenty of horrible reading out there...makes ISIS sound like Choir Boys.

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

The Japanese Army in particular and the IJN (more occasionally than the IJA due to the circumstances of its combats) often treated its prisoners with less than whatever was written into "World Law" (the Geneva Convention).

Yet the IJA was heralded for its very civilized treatment of POWs during the Russo-Japanese War and in WW1.

In WW2 the IJA and to a lesser extent the IJN experimented (scientifically supposedly) on enemy POWs and by forcing them to perform militarily significant constructions (the Burma Railway cost 90,000 POWs AND just as many Thai citizens (theoretically IJ Allies).

I can't find much in the Code of Bushido that justifies the way the Japanese behaved towards their enemies. Can you?

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 12:29:54 AM

MakeeLearn

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Bushido The Soul Of Japan 13th Edition
by Inazo Nitobe
Publication date 1908
https://archive.org/details/bushidothesoulof014620mbp

"Bushido: The Soul of Japan written by Inazo Nitobe was one of the first books on Samurai ethics that was originally written in English for a Western audience."

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 3/4/2018 12:31:44 AM >

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 12:34:30 AM

MakeeLearn

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JAPANESE ARMY BRUTALITY DURING THE ASIAN-PACIFIC WAR:
Origins, Causes, Denials, and Imperial Responsibility.

https://digitalcommons.apus.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1049&context=theses

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 12:36:03 AM

spence

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I know that individual Japanese soldiers and soldiers acted in a manner that acted along the lines specificed in the Geneva Conventions. I know also that some Japanese soldiers/sailors exploited the divide between the Russians and the other Allied powers. To be blunt the Germans used a significant amount of their available rail resources to ship Jews to the extermination camps in the East. Considering that most of the Japanese supply to whatever they helded at any point them some in their war against the Russians what cost do the Japanese pay for that
?

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 12:37:29 AM

MakeeLearn

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Bushido: Way of Total Bullsh*t

https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/

"At the time of its initial publication, Nitobe's Bushido: The Soul Of Japan received a lukewarm reception from those Japanese who read the English edition. Tsuda Sokichi wrote a scathing critique in 1901, rejecting Nitobe's central arguments. According to Tsuda� the author knew very little about his subject. Nitobe's equation of the term bushido with the soul of Japan was flawed, as bushido could only be applied to a single class� Tsuda further chastised Nitobe for not distinguishing between historical periods."

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 3/4/2018 12:39:37 AM >

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 12:42:31 AM

MakeeLearn

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Japanese Bushido saved lives of British Navy in WW II

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm5n9XXP-ZE

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 12:51:28 AM

Big B

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I don't hate Japanese, not at all.
Japan was in a war of national survival - no qualms about that.

But to excuse the cruelty of thousands of Jap operatives under the blanket of Bushido is a horror by itself.
Has anyone ever read history?

Are humans - humans or not? If the USA had an arm of it's Government that execured (cruelly by the way) all considered non-humans it came across during that war...we as Americans would repudiate that action.

Germany has been so thoroughly repudiated for any possible crimes - it borders on the hysteric. ... yet in many minds Japan is an innocent victum of Western Racism.

It's all bullshit.

Bushido is NO badge to hide behind.

EDIT: Yes I am passionate about it

< Message edited by Big B -- 3/4/2018 12:52:17 AM >

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 1:29:54 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I have read that there was a propagandized version of Bushido code used on the Japanese population in WWII, and of course it permeated the military too. So as far as I know, *not* real Bushido.

This is correct.

The "bushido" put forth by the ultra-nationalists that led Japan to war was at best a bastardized version of what bushido actually was. The "bushido" used by them is to real bushido as Jim Jones's "Christianity" is to actual Christianity.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 3/4/2018 1:32:30 AM >

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 1:46:13 AM

Big B

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I have read that there was a propagandized version of Bushido code used on the Japanese population in WWII, and of course it permeated the military too. So as far as I know, *not* real Bushido.

This is correct.

The "bushido" put forth by the ultra-nationalists that led Japan to war was at best a bastardized version of what bushido actually was. The "bushido" used by them is to real bushido as Jim Jones's "Christianity" is to actual Christianity.

This is known as the "Not Really Us" defense...dancing away from accusations
Like the lovely Go-Go Girl below dancing away...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1EpaboCERg&list=RDanpjEN9KeJ0&index=12

Sorry - but it's what it is

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 2:16:13 AM

Reg

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Nice clip...

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Cheers,
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(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 2:26:27 AM

Big B

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Yeah... I love those long haired - min-skirt 60's girls too..... first love

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

Nice clip...

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 3:20:45 AM

JeffroK

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https://www.warbirdforum.com/bushido.htm

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 3:56:19 AM

crsutton

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You put too much in this code. In WWI Japan was a democracy and the liberal faction of the government was strong. Japan was also eager to be recognized as a proper world power and was courting the West, and in order to gain acceptance by the West adopted the same rules of war. By WWII the government was totalitarian with strong fascist undertones. Raging Jingoism and control by ultra rightest who rejected any sort of accommodation with the West meant an easy abandonment of anything Western, including Western rules of War. I don't really think the Code of Bushido had anything to do with this other than provide a tool for the ultra rightest to manipulate the populace and military. They made it what they wanted it to be to suit their own ideology. This is what this sort of government does.

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 4:48:12 AM

CT Grognard

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http://www.pacificwar.org.au/JapWarCrimes/Explaining_JapWarCrimes.html

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 4:54:56 AM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I have read that there was a propagandized version of Bushido code used on the Japanese population in WWII, and of course it permeated the military too. So as far as I know, *not* real Bushido.

This is correct.

The "bushido" put forth by the ultra-nationalists that led Japan to war was at best a bastardized version of what bushido actually was. The "bushido" used by them is to real bushido as Jim Jones's "Christianity" is to actual Christianity.

This is known as the "Not Really Us" defense...dancing away from accusations
Like the lovely Go-Go Girl below dancing away...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1EpaboCERg&list=RDanpjEN9KeJ0&index=12

Sorry - but it's what it is

No, not at all. Question: "Was it Bushido?" Answer: "No. It was BS that someone made up as an excuse and called it Bushido to sell it to people." In no way whatsoever does that answer in any way seek to excuse conduct.

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 5:54:07 AM

Big B

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
No, not at all. Question: "Was it Bushido?" Answer: "No. It was BS that someone made up as an excuse and called it Bushido to sell it to people." In no way whatsoever does that answer in any way seek to excuse conduct.

My point Exactly - it's all BullShit to excuse abhorrent conduct... and if my language is too strong - compare that to the atrocities.

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 9:03:28 AM

LeeChard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
No, not at all. Question: "Was it Bushido?" Answer: "No. It was BS that someone made up as an excuse and called it Bushido to sell it to people." In no way whatsoever does that answer in any way seek to excuse conduct.

My point Exactly - it's all BullShit to excuse abhorrent conduct... and if my language is too strong - compare that to the atrocities.

Well said.

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 10:09:30 AM

Zecke

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

The Japanese Army in particular and the IJN (more occasionally than the IJA due to the circumstances of its combats) often treated its prisoners with less than whatever was written into "World Law" (the Geneva Convention).

Yet the IJA was heralded for its very civilized treatment of POWs during the Russo-Japanese War and in WW1.

In WW2 the IJA and to a lesser extent the IJN experimented (scientifically supposedly) on enemy POWs and by forcing them to perform militarily significant constructions (the Burma Railway cost 90,000 POWs AND just as many Thai citizens (theoretically IJ Allies).

I can't find much in the Code of Bushido that justifies the way the Japanese behaved towards their enemies. Can you?

nice expo; i was always wondering why The IJN attack at Guadalcanal; when USA forces landed at Lunga (with no opossition) i first thought that the Japan forces let them to build airfield and then take it; but second thoughts was that the HUNGRY let them the bushido code to attack as they did; everything was lost including food; may impossible to send food from Truk or from Homeisland ships due to blockade Guadalcanal from USA forces; so Hungry was the force to IJN forces to blow up the mind of the chiefs to practice the BUSHIDO.

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 12:00:25 PM

MakeeLearn

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The Martian Code

Attachment (1)

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 4:23:30 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
No, not at all. Question: "Was it Bushido?" Answer: "No. It was BS that someone made up as an excuse and called it Bushido to sell it to people." In no way whatsoever does that answer in any way seek to excuse conduct.

My point Exactly - it's all BullShit to excuse abhorrent conduct... and if my language is too strong - compare that to the atrocities.

Of course it was used to justify atrocities (something I didn't even touch on in my previous response), but it wasn't bushido - it was a bastardized version of "bushido" that the extreme militarists/jingoists used to beat the drums of war and suppress dissent. Then someone comes along with a reference to the non-bastardized piece of Japanese history (actual bushido/samurai behavior, which is rife with its own problems just like anybody else's history) and equates it to the behavior of the IJA in the 1930s and WW2. Which is incorrect, which is what I'm pointing out.

It's similar to when people get all uppity about Japan building a modern navy and using their historical names for ships - as if the current government of Japan was going to invade Korea and commit genocides simply because they're building a new Kaga.

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 6:33:30 PM

Big B

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I agree Lokasenna, Cheers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
...
Of course it was used to justify atrocities (something I didn't even touch on in my previous response), but it wasn't bushido - it was a bastardized version of "bushido" that the extreme militarists/jingoists used to beat the drums of war and suppress dissent. Then someone comes along with a reference to the non-bastardized piece of Japanese history (actual bushido/samurai behavior, which is rife with its own problems just like anybody else's history) and equates it to the behavior of the IJA in the 1930s and WW2. Which is incorrect, which is what I'm pointing out.

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 9:02:32 PM

MakeeLearn

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A bushi specific ethical system based on western values is the bastard?

"To complicate matters, at the time of Bushido: The Soul of Japan's release, few Japanese even recognized the term bushido. In Musashi: The Dream of the Last Samurai Mamoru Oshii explains, "Bushido was not known among Japanese people� It appeared in literature, but was not a commonly used word."

"But in reality the term bushido did not exist until the twentieth century. In fact, Nitobe, one of the first scholars to embrace bushido, thought he created the term in 1900.

"Terms like budo (the martial way), bushi no michi (the way of the warrior), and yumiya no michi (the way of the bow and arrow) are far more common," Benesch writes (7). Although these terms prove that warrior ideals had a place in the Japanese consciousness, equating them to bushido would be inaccurate.

"The concept bushido came into use during the Meiji era but wouldn't gain widespread acknowledgment until Meiji's end. Despite popular imagery, ancient samurai did not write about or discuss bushido. Dishonorable acts didn't end careers and lives as romanticized histories lead us to believe."

"Bushido had never existed as an honor code or term in ancient Japan as Bushido: The Soul of Japan implied. Nitobe's representation of the samurai class proves itself just as contrived. Like all human beings, samurai morals varied by individual."

"Historical accounts show that samurai did not follow an honor code, which would have been an impractical obstacle to survival, victory, and comfortable living. Timon Screech writes "We are talking mythologies. The belief that samurai ever fought to the death does not survive investigation, nor the claim that they made the sacrifice of disembowelment when atonement was required. The motto the way of the samurai is death was invented long after death had ceased to be on most samurai's minds or a reality in their lives� they were bureaucrats."

https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 3/4/2018 10:04:12 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/4/2018 9:59:04 PM

MakeeLearn

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Seems to imply that the "Code of the Samurai (Bushido Code)", as Westerners tend to see it, is the bastard of Western Christian and Chivalrous values mated with "bushi no michi" (the way of the warrior) Samurai Code of "victory and survival". "Real bushido" as believed in by Westerners is the real bastard. In reality, warriors focused on victory and survival not on counterproductive codes of honor.

Therefore, whatever brings "victory and survival" is bushi no michi.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 3/5/2018 12:15:22 PM >

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/13/2018 8:25:47 PM

Yaab

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How do you incalculate Bushido in IJN sailors? They operate complex machinery (ships), follow procedures, do routine tasks, do not see their enemy face to face (gunnery duels, carrier battles). It seems Bushido indoctrination wouldn't help them at all in seamanship.

They only instance of Bushido in the context of IJN is probably this book
https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Bushido-Japanese-Atrocities-1941-1945/dp/1883283183/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1520972445&sr=1-1&keywords=blood+bushido

Seems Jap submariners like torturing and killing survivors.

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Post #: 26

RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/14/2018 6:21:51 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

How do you incalculate Bushido in IJN sailors? They operate complex machinery (ships), follow procedures, do routine tasks, do not see their enemy face to face (gunnery duels, carrier battles). It seems Bushido indoctrination wouldn't help them at all in seamanship.

They only instance of Bushido in the context of IJN is probably this book
https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Bushido-Japanese-Atrocities-1941-1945/dp/1883283183/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1520972445&sr=1-1&keywords=blood+bushido

Seems Jap submariners like torturing and killing survivors.

That's a pretty big brush you've got there. Where'd you get it?

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RE: The Code of the Samurai (Bushido) and WW2 - 3/15/2018 6:08:09 PM

Yaab

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If you mean if I have read the book, then no, I have not. I was browsing the Web for any info about Bushido and IJN, and this title popped out.

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Post #: 28