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RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 12:48:26 AM

thewood1

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I just went through the manual again on layers and depth. I am not sure what is missing here that anyone would need to play a simple sub scenario. Combine that with Baloogan's videos, I would think you are pretty set on playing the simpler tutorials and scenarios.

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 31

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 1:16:06 AM

alphington

Posts: 10
Joined: 11/19/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

I agree that tutorials with very detailed explanations like the recent submarine tutorials are a great way to learn.
A big fat manual (or rather a strategy guide) with plenty of examples, explanations, tactics wouldn't be bad neither...
But I would definitely rank tutorials as #1 as long as they are of the quality of the last submarine ones.

I second this - tutorials of the sub series kind are the most effective way for me to learn.

(in reply to nukkxx5058)

Post #: 32

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 1:34:21 AM

thewood1

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
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Take a look in the War Room section...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1282

Look at the posts this guy (the guy posting through most of the first page) is putting up. It becomes pretty obvious he started out making little effort to prep for anything he is trying to do. A few people have stepped in here and there to help him. Do you think if the devs put a couple months worth of work into a big thick manual and a bunch of tutorials, its going to help him? In the end, he just wants people to build stuff for him. There are videos out there that walk you through doing exactly some of the stuff he is looking for.

Because its that kind of guy I am talking about. Will that person be helped at all by doing all of that work. Or is he going to come in asking exactly the same questions and doing just as much work to help himself?

Let's look at the layer example again...

1) Three to four page section on how they are implemented in the game
2) A video that covers a good portion of the topic. You can follow along in your own scenario.
3) Several threads on details of layers and their implementation in the game found through a simple forum search on "layer"

There is a new player section that highlights the video channel. So if a player sees the new player section, wouldn't common sense dictate maybe taking a look through the chaneel

I have no issue with someone coming in and asking how layers work. They can easily be pointed to that info. But if they come back and say that's not enough, I am not sure any amount of documentation less than working with them 1:1 over skype is going to help.

Again, the information can be consolidated and organized. But as a couple threads I have been involved in for the last couple days shows, you can point right at something and some players just aren't going to go beyond a certain point to help themselves.

(in reply to alphington)

Post #: 33

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 3:07:39 AM

DWReese

Posts: 1824
Joined: 3/21/2014
From: Miami, Florida
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Kevin,

In theory, I sort of agree with you that the manual does have some valuable data that could be obtained if read and applied. Obviously, many (including me) don't study it to the degree that we have it memorized. And, as others have pointed out, the tutorials are apparently much easier to comprehend. Let's face it, fighting a war under the sea is much different than fighting one on it, or over it. In fact, the concept of a "layer" is something that most people don't even know about, nor are they really even familiar with what it does, or what effect it has on various platforms.

My question to you, however, is why do you feel compelled to answer questions that you deem "unworthy" of the devs time? If the devs don't want to respond, then they just don't. Not too many people ask questions and expect the devs to respond. They are asking questions in hopes that other "commoners" can relate to, and thus will share any of their own experiences with. But, for some reason, you seem like a Templar Knight, protecting the "Holy Grail" from the unholy. In my opinion, these guys are just asking mere questions. If you don't personally like the question, just ignore it and move on to the next message. You are not obligated at all to respond to anything. In fact, given some of the responses that you have rendered, you have either worked yourself into a frenzy, or your remarks may have alienated some CMANO customers who, like you and I, have paid their money to play this game. They are merely asking to simply exchanging ideas with other game players. A forum, any forum, after all, is set up to be just that...a place to exchange ideas.

I do hope that in the feature you just merely let the questions that you deem "stupid" along with the comments from the posters who are also "without merit" just go without you feeling personally compelled to respond. It will lower your blood pressure, and be better for your overall health.

It's just a suggestion.

Have a nice evening.

Doug

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 34

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 3:13:01 AM

guanotwozero

Posts: 651
Joined: 12/27/2013
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Nevertheless the OP is asking about solutions, so better we concentrate on that.

For those who are happy to wade through thick leather-bound tomes (I have fond memories of the Falcon 4 and Dangerous Waters manuals!), no more is needed.

But for others, it may seem utterly daunting to get to grips with a) the mechanics of the game and b) the wisdom of where/when to use them.

Probably small bite-sized tutorials steps will be a useful approach, to build up an initial layer of understanding. Importantly, these should enable & encourage the player to use the available references, including both the database and public-domain resources like Wikipedia. These steps can be tried and understood one at a time, without having to deal with a wall of information. They should also refer to the explanations in the manual, so the player becomes familiar with it.

After enough such steps, the level of understanding will be at a much better level and the player should be more autonomous in taking their learning further.

We all have to start from somewhere, and a bit of early hand-holding will be useful for some.

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 35

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 3:43:58 AM

thewood1

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You are mistaken that I consider them unworthy. Any question is not a bad question. Any new player should get help and get questions answered. Its players that continue to come back with the same basic questions or ignore the advice they are given, that I push back on. Again, its people that won't help themselves even a little.

This started with a couple idiots coming in and really sucking up the devs' time with very basic questions and complaints. Saying the the game was broken and needed to be fixed...and all because they wouldn't make any effort to learn the game. The devs and the community have gone to great lengths to document the basics, create video tutorials, build scenario tutorials, and answer questions. This thread in particular shows that some people think a big project to develop tutorials and a big manual will solve the problem. My point is that it will help the same people who are willing to do some work to learn the game. It won't help the same cadre of people that aren't willing to work a little to play the game.

These devs went through hell getting this game launched. I watched the development of the game and a number of people try to drag them down out of shear meanness. That carried over into the forums. I have refused to let people come in and devolve the forum again. I have stepped back a couple times and watched over a few months the forum get dominated by people who have no interest in learning the game. It ends up falling on the devs to sort it out. My reason for continuing to hammer at this is to keep the devs out of it as much as possible. Just look at the War Room section. While that guy is nowhere near as bad as others that have passed through, he is the kind of guy that sucks up the help people are willing to give. Note that a lot of his questions go unanswered. A sure sign of growing frustration with him.

I will help anyone I can. But there is one particular person on the main forum who drops a couple questions a day around things he could easily figure out and find himself. I have stayed out of it just to see what happens. I have noted that the usual crew of helpers is starting to get frustrated. It is incredibly predictable. You either let it fester and drag on or confront it right away.

FInally, it absolutely doesn't raise my blood pressure. I debate with people all day long as part of my job. Its easy for me. This **** is easy. I speak bluntly and have learned through years of experience that speaking bluntly and upfront to get to things quickly over letting things fester. I don't do it to be liked. I do it to help the devs and people who are willing to put some effort into learning the game.

As I kind of said earlier, if people don't like my posting style, feel free to step in and help. I also don't really care what people think, to be frank. If the devs want me to stop, I will.

(in reply to DWReese)

Post #: 36

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 7:48:50 AM

nukkxx5058

Posts: 2932
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From: France
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I think that above all an internet forum should remain a convivial place where people ask and exchange views with pleasure. Not a place of endless arguing. Newbie shaming makes it difficult and I'm sure many people could be afraid to ask or would simply move or even worse, could stop playing. I don't think this is good for the game and the CMANO community. We want the community to develop and the game so sell as many copies as possible to happy players. This is the guaranty of a bright future for CMANO. This can't be achieved without a friendly forum. No one is obliged to answer questions, even not the devs. Especially when these are 'stupid'/newbie questions. Just let casual players answer. For example , to the question "how can I have images ?" even I can answer

and it's my pleasure to answer when I can. Wood1 is much more qualified than I am so he should focus on sophisticated/complex questions(with a save, huh !

).
There are several ways to find the information on the internet. RTFM, google, or simply, ask in a forum. This is why god created forums. To allow rookies to quickly access information by asking grognards and without having to having to rtfm from cover to cover.

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 37

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 9:49:27 AM

Andrea G

Posts: 325
Joined: 10/9/2017
From: Genoa, Italy
Status: offline

As an old ASL player I would like a similar mammoth printed manual, but I understand that times are changed and nobody reads above 140 characters anymore

Just kidding.
I think that the tutorials are the best solution to learn the game; after them tackle a real scenario, bang you head against the wall a few times without crying for help the first time the AI bangs you on the head; last resource ask on the forum, explaining your problem with a savegame attached.

Regarding tutorials, I would really like to see Cargo e Amphibious operations explained in a series of tutorials.

_____________________________

(in reply to nukkxx5058)

Post #: 38

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 11:51:23 AM

ultradave

Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/20/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrea G

Regarding tutorials, I would really like to see Cargo e Amphibious operations explained in a series of tutorials.

This I agree with. It's a new feature and I'm sure we're missing a lot of nuances about how to use it. I know I myself haven't even gotten into it so I'm no help at all in this case. Too busy lately with global destruction in Northern Inferno and submarine ops in Silent Service. I'll get to it eventually :-)

_____________________________

----------------
Dave A.
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep he checks his closet for paratroopers"

(in reply to Andrea G)

Post #: 39

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 12:27:44 PM

thewood1

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Joined: 11/27/2005
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Cargo mechanics give me a massive headache every time I try to get my head around it. Its probably the most complex part of Command right now for a player. It will just take some time sitting down with it when I finally feel the need.

(in reply to ultradave)

Post #: 40

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 12:44:06 PM

thewood1

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

I think that above all an internet forum should remain a convivial place where people ask and exchange views with pleasure. Not a place of endless arguing. Newbie shaming makes it difficult and I'm sure many people could be afraid to ask or would simply move or even worse, could stop playing. I don't think this is good for the game and the CMANO community. We want the community to develop and the game so sell as many copies as possible to happy players. This is the guaranty of a bright future for CMANO. This can't be achieved without a friendly forum. No one is obliged to answer questions, even not the devs. Especially when these are 'stupid'/newbie questions. Just let casual players answer. For example , to the question "how can I have images ?" even I can answer and it's my pleasure to answer when I can. Wood1 is much more qualified than I am so he should focus on sophisticated/complex questions(with a save, huh ! ).
There are several ways to find the information on the internet. RTFM, google, or simply, ask in a forum. This is why god created forums. To allow rookies to quickly access information by asking grognards and without having to having to rtfm from cover to cover.

A) speak of the devil
B) You have not been reading what I posted. If you have, you aren't understanding it.

(in reply to nukkxx5058)

Post #: 41

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 2:31:00 PM

thewood1

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My favorite Clue charachter has spoken the truth...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4457508

"The manual and database are good to teach you mechanics and what controls to use, but to learn naval warfare goes beyond anything the devs could put in a book, or the database. One of the things I like about this game is that other than the buttons to push, there are very few pat answers to the challenges the game provides. If the player wants to be good at the game, they have to have the desire to figure things out for themselves. That means playing (and losing), outside research, experimenting within the game, and, as a last resort, asking for an answer."

This goes back to the layer discussion. The devs aren't responsible for explaining the details of real life physical phenomenon. They have provided several tools to explain how layers are used in the game. There are lots of resources outside the game and on the forum for more detail in what layers do and are. The debate, to me, is how much a new player is expected to do on their own before they are told to RTFM.

I have yet to see any new player come in and ask a level-headed question and get just a RTFM. They might be pointed to where they can find an answer. Where it gets harder is when they show a complete lack of initiative to help themselves even just a little. A player coming in and say, "Hey, I read the three page section on layers in the manual, but still am not sure how my sub can best avoid detection" is a lot better than coming and saying, "Hey, the devs don't provide enough documentation on what layers are because I don't understand them".

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 42

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 2:53:43 PM

BDukes

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

You are mistaken that I consider them unworthy. Any question is not a bad question. Any new player should get help and get questions answered. Its players that continue to come back with the same basic questions or ignore the advice they are given, that I push back on. Again, its people that won't help themselves even a little.

This started with a couple idiots coming in and really sucking up the devs' time with very basic questions and complaints. Saying the the game was broken and needed to be fixed...and all because they wouldn't make any effort to learn the game. The devs and the community have gone to great lengths to document the basics, create video tutorials, build scenario tutorials, and answer questions. This thread in particular shows that some people think a big project to develop tutorials and a big manual will solve the problem. My point is that it will help the same people who are willing to do some work to learn the game. It won't help the same cadre of people that aren't willing to work a little to play the game.

These devs went through hell getting this game launched. I watched the development of the game and a number of people try to drag them down out of shear meanness. That carried over into the forums. I have refused to let people come in and devolve the forum again. I have stepped back a couple times and watched over a few months the forum get dominated by people who have no interest in learning the game. It ends up falling on the devs to sort it out. My reason for continuing to hammer at this is to keep the devs out of it as much as possible. Just look at the War Room section. While that guy is nowhere near as bad as others that have passed through, he is the kind of guy that sucks up the help people are willing to give. Note that a lot of his questions go unanswered. A sure sign of growing frustration with him.

I will help anyone I can. But there is one particular person on the main forum who drops a couple questions a day around things he could easily figure out and find himself. I have stayed out of it just to see what happens. I have noted that the usual crew of helpers is starting to get frustrated. It is incredibly predictable. You either let it fester and drag on or confront it right away.

FInally, it absolutely doesn't raise my blood pressure. I debate with people all day long as part of my job. Its easy for me. This **** is easy. I speak bluntly and have learned through years of experience that speaking bluntly and upfront to get to things quickly over letting things fester. I don't do it to be liked. I do it to help the devs and people who are willing to put some effort into learning the game.

As I kind of said earlier, if people don't like my posting style, feel free to step in and help. I also don't really care what people think, to be frank. If the devs want me to stop, I will.

Ah another person on forum you don't like and I see more paragraphs of stabbing them in back with smile on face

Always frame like you help dev and other poster is bad egg. I wonder what forum would be like if you didn't do? Do you think it would not exist without your protection

Have you made dev think that? If so it is poison to them. I start to get picture of who is behind some of their off post.

Being nice is good thing. Wood should not be telling what can post. He should not be threatening in private message. He cannot dictate how anybody should use or play game. They have busy life and just use game to have fun. I wonder how many user never buy a Warfarsim game again because of this. Shame

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 43

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 2:57:51 PM

thewood1

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Joined: 11/27/2005
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In that same thread, note the frustration being shown by three relatively calm forum regulars. That has been building for a couple months with that player. To connect to my point, this is a person that has had things explained to him over and over, as well as pointed to where he can find answers. This should been addressed when he first started posting. I stayed out of it to see where it would end up.

And guess what? Its ending up exactly where I thought it would. At this point, he can either do a little self-reflection on why people are getting frustrated and change his approach to understanding the game or it will head very far south. No amount of tutorials or manual pages are going to him past his perception of how the game should work or his perception of its flaws.

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 44

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 3:00:40 PM

thewood1

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
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I wondered how long before the forum stalker would show up. Noted an improvement of your error rate to under 20%. That is some solid improvement.

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 45

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 3:12:02 PM

BDukes

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

In that same thread, note the frustration being shown by three relatively calm forum regulars. That has been building for a couple months with that player. To connect to my point, this is a person that has had things explained to him over and over, as well as pointed to where he can find answers. This should been addressed when he first started posting. I stayed out of it to see where it would end up.

And guess what? Its ending up exactly where I thought it would. At this point, he can either do a little self-reflection on why people are getting frustrated and change his approach to understanding the game or it will head very far south. No amount of tutorials or manual pages are going to him past his perception of how the game should work or his perception of its flaws.

So you speak for them? Have you talk with them or you just see their frustration. Looks like you think this way and want others too. What if they do think your way? Notice they are not picking on user? Good men. Stop drink Wood poison kool-aid everybody.

This is support forum that wood say only approved questions can be ask. Who said only Wood approve questions allowed? Are questions not the point of support forum? Should user of all ability and smart be able to post without harassments or should user we think is not computer smart have to read three paragraph of insult or lecture on manual reading? If you this customer how would you think?

Kind support would help peoples learn more about game. Peoples will stay here and read forum more. I wonder if Wood think about maybe they don't read anything here because it not a good place for new user unless they have thick skin. Maybe doesn't think about at all.

Thank

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 46

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 3:17:02 PM

BDukes

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I wondered how long before the forum stalker would show up. Noted an improvement of your error rate to under 20%. That is some solid improvement.

Again insults to non english speaker? I am sorry mine is not perfect but the world sometime work that way.

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 47

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 3:24:02 PM

c3k

Posts: 369
Joined: 4/25/2017
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Okay, here's a question or two: Convergence Zones. What are the green bands? Is that where there is BETTER detection, and I cannot hear anything in the non-green zones? Or, are the green zones blanked, and the dark zones are where I can hear better? How much better/worse are the acoustics in the different zones? Why are there notches in the green zones? Why are the notches always lined up in succeeding rings, and why are there only one notch per ring?

I've looked...but don't see answers to that BASIC question. And, yes, that's a puzzle to me.

(in reply to BDukes)

Post #: 48

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 3:43:32 PM

rmunie0613

Posts: 202
Joined: 1/2/2018
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quote:

ORIGINAL: c3k

Okay, here's a question or two: Convergence Zones. What are the green bands? Is that where there is BETTER detection, and I cannot hear anything in the non-green zones? Or, are the green zones blanked, and the dark zones are where I can hear better? How much better/worse are the acoustics in the different zones? Why are there notches in the green zones? Why are the notches always lined up in succeeding rings, and why are there only one notch per ring?

I've looked...but don't see answers to that BASIC question. And, yes, that's a puzzle to me.

The CZs are the green bands, so you cannot hear anything between them. (Not sure if you were giving just an example or actually asking lol).

(in reply to c3k)

Post #: 49

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 3:48:51 PM

rmunie0613

Posts: 202
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Interesting post.
Personally I like having all of them available. I almost never "play" tutorials myself, but open them to look at something specific often enough. I have never read the manual entirely, but, again, have opened it to look at specific things often enough that by now I may have done so.
I think one thing "thewood1" touches on- that much of the information is scattered, sometimes is an issue, but it is "able to be found"- he certainly finds it, and rather quickly often.
LUA has been my own greatest challenge, and the mix that the OP has put together of tutorial/manual for certain aspects of it are amazing.

I think to ask the devs- or anyone really- to keep the manual updated is too much. The game has developed so very far, and continues to do so, so that the manual- while important- becomes simply one of many tools.

(in reply to rmunie0613)

Post #: 50

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 3:51:56 PM

ultradave

Posts: 1355
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quote:

ORIGINAL: c3k

Okay, here's a question or two: Convergence Zones. What are the green bands? Is that where there is BETTER detection, and I cannot hear anything in the non-green zones? Or, are the green zones blanked, and the dark zones are where I can hear better? How much better/worse are the acoustics in the different zones? Why are there notches in the green zones? Why are the notches always lined up in succeeding rings, and why are there only one notch per ring?

I've looked...but don't see answers to that BASIC question. And, yes, that's a puzzle to me.

More than you ever wanted to know on CZs:
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/SNR_PROP/snr_prop.htm

From a link in this thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3954575&mpage=1&key=Convergence%2CZones�

More here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3587267&mpage=1&key=Convergence%2CZones�

And more here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3516063&mpage=1&key=Convergence%2CZones�

Happy reading!

_____________________________

----------------
Dave A.
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep he checks his closet for paratroopers"

(in reply to c3k)

Post #: 51

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 4:07:52 PM

stilesw

Posts: 1497
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From: Hansville, WA, USA
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quote:

More than you ever wanted to know on CZs:
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/SNR_PROP/snr_prop.htm

Ultradave,

Excellent information at this site. I've included it in the unofficial reference library.
As always, any forum member who would like access to this Dropbox information please PM me with your email address and I'll add you to the list.

Thanks for the input.

-Wayne Stiles

(in reply to ultradave)

Post #: 52

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 4:12:23 PM

c3k

Posts: 369
Joined: 4/25/2017
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Thanks...

Not trying to derail the OP, but these links point out several issues:

1. Someone incorrectly posted that the green bands are dead zones. That points to the paucity of clear information to the player.

2. Posting links in a forum is EXACTLY what is wrong. The manual does not have enough information about these BASIC elements of gameplay and UI.

3. Still nothing about the notches. :)

In short, a detailed pdf and short, pointed, videos are necessary to break the barrier to new players.

(Please, let's ignore anything about Convergence Zones. I used that as an example of something which experienced players take for granted but newbs don't understand, either theoretically or how it affects gameplay.)

(in reply to ultradave)

Post #: 53

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 4:15:47 PM

kevinkins

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As mentioned above, so many learning resources are already available I don�t think anything really new is needed. The existing �written (the manual), hands-on (tutorial scenarios), visual (videos ala Baloogan)� could benefit by being brought together by someone who has very good publishing/organizational skills. Aka, a good �copy editor�. Some people just have a knack at making the complex understandable. They might be able to bring those three types of resources together with synergy where the sum is of greater value than the separate parts.

I never bought a �Complete Idiots Guide to �� book, but that publishing franchise is well known for its strong editing and organizational style. Unfortunately, those skills often require a professional who can put all the information into an easy to comprehend format. That said, Command would be a challenge for any editor or technical writer to tackle � even a pro. But it�s something to consider. The �Idiots� is just an example of a form of technical writing for the general public who want to come up to speed quickly on challenging topic. I believe that's the objective Apache has in mind.

Kevin

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 54

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 4:54:54 PM

DWReese

Posts: 1824
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From: Miami, Florida
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Good question. What do the notches do? Why are they there? I've never seen anything on them.

Doug

(in reply to c3k)

Post #: 55

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 5:06:41 PM

thewood1

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Joined: 11/27/2005
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"Someone incorrectly posted that the green bands are dead zones. That points to the paucity of clear information to the player. "

And this points out a good reason to do your own research. Everyone has an opinion when you ask a question. The only way to figure it out is do your own research on the topic. Unless the devs step in. And they can't step into every discussion.

That is why posting links is exactly right. Why rehash something that has been discussed and explained before. Its faster and usually better.

(in reply to DWReese)

Post #: 56

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 5:30:23 PM

rmunie0613

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:) Just to be clear, what I pointed out was the opposite...did not point out they are dead zones, but that they were the Convergence zones.

OK carry on

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 57

RE: RTFM? - 3/25/2018 7:40:07 PM

Dimitris

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
Good question. What do the notches do? Why are they there? I've never seen anything on them.

The notches are a map-graphics glitch. They do not affect simulated physics or gameplay.

At least one mystery solved.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 3/27/2018 6:48:17 AM >

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