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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/7/2018 3:53:20 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

16th-31st July 42

Total stalemate in China at the moment. I simply cannot overcome his troops in wooded rough terrain and flanking is not an option due to having to go off road. Another recon bombardment of Sian reveals 4100AV in the hex now. I have 3800 in position ready to cross. Do I stick or twist? He launches a rare 4E raid against Hankow airfield that torches 60 a/c on the ground (most transports), my bad for being complacent and having no CAP up over it. A quick question: He has Ledo built up to the max and is obviously flying supply in by transport. Would this be enough to keep his army in China fed? I would assume not but the performance of his ground troops would suggest otherwise...

Everywhere else is a total snoozefest. Bataan down to one fort now, hopefully the next shock attack in a few days time will take it. He tries to sneak an unescorted supply convoy into Broome but I spot it and send a few old DDs to intercept:

Day Time Surface Combat, near Broome at 62,127, Range 12,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Oite
DD Minekaze, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Sawakaze
DD Tachikaze, Shell hits 1
DD Karii, Shell hits 1
DD Yanagi

Allied Ships
xAK Bellerophon, Shell hits 16, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Clan Mactavish, Shell hits 13, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Elysia, Shell hits 18, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Demodocus, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Tantalus, Shell hits 11, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Autolycus, Shell hits 13, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Benledi, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Clan Macnair, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Clan Mactaggart, Shell hits 8, on fire
xAK Clan Macwhirter, Shell hits 17, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Forthbank, Shell hits 10, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Glenaffric, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Mahsud, Shell hits 12, heavy fires
xAK Boero, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Tjikandi, Shell hits 18, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Tjikarang, Shell hits 29, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

A nice little haul


The Tojo starts production next month but I think only three sqds can upgrade to the IIa version so I won't be mass producing it.

You have found Mr. Kane's Achilles' Heel - in concentrating his strength for his aggressive attacks he strips other areas of all protection. I think you will spank him for that for a long while!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 181
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/7/2018 4:12:25 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

A quick question: He has Ledo built up to the max and is obviously flying supply in by transport. Would this be enough to keep his army in China fed? I would assume not but the performance of his ground troops would suggest otherwise...


No not at all, but there is much variation. Building bases, building forts, taking replacements, bombarding, assaulting, moving, in combat mode (as opposed to rest mode)...

Supply flown in will supplement whatever is being generated + daily supply. More and more will be flown in daily as more transports come on line.

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 182
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/7/2018 4:14:46 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline 		Tojos: if playing with the "stock" settings you have only the experimental squadron for now, and 2 or three other groups later in 1943;

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 183
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/7/2018 4:45:40 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

A quick question: He has Ledo built up to the max and is obviously flying supply in by transport. Would this be enough to keep his army in China fed? I would assume not but the performance of his ground troops would suggest otherwise...


No not at all, but there is much variation. Building bases, building forts, taking replacements, bombarding, assaulting, moving, in combat mode (as opposed to rest mode)...

Supply flown in will supplement whatever is being generated + daily supply. More and more will be flown in daily as more transports come on line.


You are expecting too much too early in China. Ledo can keep only a small number of Chinese units in supply-even at the most optimal. Against an experienced Allied player China is a one year to a year and a half project. You just keep grinding and he will use more supply than he can ever replace. Eventually the Chinese will break and that usually leads to a whole series of disasters. Once Chinese units are defeated and retreat a few times, they will lose the bulk of their devices. And these will never be replaced. It then grows easier and easier to beat them. My opponents always preceded an attack with a massed air bombardment. Disrupted Chinese melt.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 184
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/7/2018 4:46:01 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

A quick question: He has Ledo built up to the max and is obviously flying supply in by transport. Would this be enough to keep his army in China fed? I would assume not but the performance of his ground troops would suggest otherwise...


No not at all, but there is much variation. Building bases, building forts, taking replacements, bombarding, assaulting, moving, in combat mode (as opposed to rest mode)...

Supply flown in will supplement whatever is being generated + daily supply. More and more will be flown in daily as more transports come on line.

In a previous game Mr. Kane put every bomber he had in India to hauling supply from Ledo. It was enough to stymie Japanese advances in the Chungking area.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 185
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/7/2018 5:19:52 PM   
witpqs


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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

A quick question: He has Ledo built up to the max and is obviously flying supply in by transport. Would this be enough to keep his army in China fed? I would assume not but the performance of his ground troops would suggest otherwise...


No not at all, but there is much variation. Building bases, building forts, taking replacements, bombarding, assaulting, moving, in combat mode (as opposed to rest mode)...

Supply flown in will supplement whatever is being generated + daily supply. More and more will be flown in daily as more transports come on line.


You are expecting too much too early in China. Ledo can keep only a small number of Chinese units in supply-even at the most optimal. Against an experienced Allied player China is a one year to a year and a half project. You just keep grinding and he will use more supply than he can ever replace. Eventually the Chinese will break and that usually leads to a whole series of disasters. Once Chinese units are defeated and retreat a few times, they will lose the bulk of their devices. And these will never be replaced. It then grows easier and easier to beat them. My opponents always preceded an attack with a massed air bombardment. Disrupted Chinese melt.

+1

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 186
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/7/2018 5:24:52 PM   
witpqs


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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

A quick question: He has Ledo built up to the max and is obviously flying supply in by transport. Would this be enough to keep his army in China fed? I would assume not but the performance of his ground troops would suggest otherwise...


No not at all, but there is much variation. Building bases, building forts, taking replacements, bombarding, assaulting, moving, in combat mode (as opposed to rest mode)...

Supply flown in will supplement whatever is being generated + daily supply. More and more will be flown in daily as more transports come on line.

In a previous game Mr. Kane put every bomber he had in India to hauling supply from Ledo. It was enough to stymie Japanese advances in the Chungking area.

The transports take lots of ops losses over time, so I imagine the bombers must take plenty of ops losses too. By lots I mean when you gets large numbers of them on line the very generous production of C-47's cannot keep up.

I suppose it boils down to 'what do you want to do with those bombers?'. Part of that decision might be affected by Japan's actions pressuring India, requiring the bombers for defensive duties.

_____________________________

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Post #: 187
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/8/2018 11:42:20 AM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		1st-10th August 42

Of course you're right gents, I can't expect to steamroller an expert opponent in China in the space of a year. I now have stack of 2500AV in the rough terrain 2 hexes directly north of Chihkiang, they meet a stack trying to cut me off and I take a big chunk out of them:

Ground combat at 78,48 (near Chihkiang)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 74480 troops, 693 guns, 236 vehicles, Assault Value = 2435

Defending force 35752 troops, 454 guns, 34 vehicles, Assault Value = 1071

Japanese adjusted assault: 2150

Allied adjusted defense: 809

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
5333 casualties reported
Squads: 8 destroyed, 355 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 30 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 64 disabled
Guns lost 26 (4 destroyed, 22 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
13825 casualties reported
Squads: 414 destroyed, 199 disabled
Non Combat: 531 destroyed, 171 disabled
Engineers: 40 destroyed, 68 disabled
Guns lost 209 (71 destroyed, 138 disabled)
Vehicles lost 17 (10 destroyed, 7 disabled)
Units retreated 13

So that's another month's worth of replacements he's lost. Will just have to keep grinding away. I've cancelled the invasion of Sian. About a dozen B17s bomb my stack and cause one of my tank divs to take 92! disruption. And also a mini disaster at Changteh where 20 Wellington's destroy 80 a/c on the ground in a night raid I have Nicks doing night CAP now over all the big Chinese airfields.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 188
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/8/2018 3:46:31 PM   
Mike McCreery


Posts: 4232
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline 		One of the toughest things about playing MrKane RE the ground war is he never seems to run out of supplies. He is very meticulous in planning his defenses and supplying them accordingly.



_____________________________


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Post #: 189
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/9/2018 10:58:55 AM   
Miller


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From: Ashington, England.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

One of the toughest things about playing MrKane RE the ground war is he never seems to run out of supplies. He is very meticulous in planning his defenses and supplying them accordingly.




I really didn't want to hear that

(in reply to Mike McCreery)
Post #: 190
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/9/2018 11:07:52 AM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		11th-14th August 42

For once the focus of attention moves away from China.

My recon picks up a load of TFs moving up towards the Shortlands/Rabual area from the south east. Judging by the number of search planes shot down it has to be all his CVs covering an invasion somewhere in the area. I sortie all my carriers south from Truk, then.........nothing happens. We dance around about 15-20 hexes apart, me about 10 hexes east of Rabual and him mid way between Rossel and Renell Is just out of Netty range from Rabual. I certainly won't force the issue, I will simply hang around and wait for him to make (or not) make his move. I believe this is not the optimum time for a CV battle, rather in very late 42/early 43 when I have Judy dive bombers and improved Zero's and he is still stuck with F4Fs....We shall see what happens next but I doubt he will come any further north.

(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 191
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/9/2018 11:37:32 AM   
pws1225

 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
Status: offline 		Do you know if he has spotted your CVs?

(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 192
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/9/2018 11:48:33 AM   
Miller


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From: Ashington, England.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225

Do you know if he has spotted your CVs?


Yes, I think he was hoping they were elsewhere and was just trying his luck.

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Post #: 193
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/9/2018 2:46:36 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		I suspect he was hoping to determine the fighter/bomber total plane makeup of your KB.

Next time he will likely be coming to trap it after tailoring his deathstar to match up against your KB.

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Post #: 194
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/9/2018 7:13:48 PM   
Miller


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From: Ashington, England.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I suspect he was hoping to determine the fighter/bomber total plane makeup of your KB.

Next time he will likely be coming to trap it after tailoring his deathstar to match up against your KB.


Really? Seems like a rather big risk to take considering!

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 195
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/9/2018 7:53:19 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		It is Aug 42, I am sure Mr. Kane is looking to have a CV fight with you.

Finding out the disposition and whereabouts of the KB doesn't sound risky to me, of course I am operating on very little information.


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Post #: 196
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/9/2018 8:48:58 PM   
Mike McCreery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I suspect he was hoping to determine the fighter/bomber total plane makeup of your KB.

Next time he will likely be coming to trap it after tailoring his deathstar to match up against your KB.



Really? Seems like a rather big risk to take considering!



Considering what? I bet MrKane is more than willing to trade 1 for 1 or even 2 for 1 in carriers right now. If he can tip the scales in '42 this game will go downhill quickly for the Japanese.

He gets more, you do not.

_____________________________


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Post #: 197
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/9/2018 9:42:03 PM   
pws1225

 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
Status: offline 		MrKane has a track record of being a very innovative player. But I doubt he would risk a CV battle in the Solomons when the Japanese CVs can be bolstered by fighters out of Rabaul. I suspect Miller has it right. MrKane was looking for a quick smash and grab, but the presence of KB in the area has made him think twice,

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Post #: 198
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/10/2018 8:04:27 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I suspect he was hoping to determine the fighter/bomber total plane makeup of your KB.

Next time he will likely be coming to trap it after tailoring his deathstar to match up against your KB.



Really? Seems like a rather big risk to take considering!



Considering what? I bet MrKane is more than willing to trade 1 for 1 or even 2 for 1 in carriers right now. If he can tip the scales in '42 this game will go downhill quickly for the Japanese.

He gets more, you do not.


This isn't the place to do it though. Too far from repair facilities and too close to growing Japanese air bases.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 199
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/10/2018 2:02:21 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
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Status: offline 		15th-21st Aug 42

As I expected he retreats his CVs south but they still seem to be milling around just north of Espiritu Santo. Mine are at Truk but still in TFs just in case he changes his mind again. I have about 20 subs in the area but they are not getting a sniff at the moment, he seems to run everything in huge convoys.

Elsewhere in China its pretty much trench warfare with lots of bombarding but no attacking. I have managed to bomb out half of his HI and LI at Chengtu and Kumming, hopefully that will have an effect further down the line. Bataan finally falls on the 20th Aug. Of the two divs there, one will be split up and stay in the Bataan/Clark/Manila triangle and I'm sending the other one to Java. Nothing of note anywhere else.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 200
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/10/2018 7:33:34 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Of the two divs there, one will be split up and stay in the Bataan/Clark/Manila triangle and I'm sending the other one to Java. Nothing of note anywhere else.


This makes me think you've decided to rest with a somewhat historical extent to the Empire? No follow on plans after the DEI, PI and So Pac are secure?

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/10/2018 8:48:32 PM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

One of the toughest things about playing MrKane RE the ground war is he never seems to run out of supplies. He is very meticulous in planning his defenses and supplying them accordingly.




I really didn't want to hear that

So how do you hit his resupply base??

You should have some VLR Netties/Emily etc which could hit Ledo at night! (shouldnt have any NF yet)

Make him rebase and have to think a bit.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

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Post #: 202
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/13/2018 6:17:17 PM   
Miller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Of the two divs there, one will be split up and stay in the Bataan/Clark/Manila triangle and I'm sending the other one to Java. Nothing of note anywhere else.


This makes me think you've decided to rest with a somewhat historical extent to the Empire? No follow on plans after the DEI, PI and So Pac are secure?


Yes that's right. There will be no more offensive operations for the remainder of the game outside of China. I don't have the troops to spare and with it being pdu off my airforce is creaking as it is. I'm far more comfortable playing on the defensive anyway.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 203
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/13/2018 6:18:54 PM   
Miller


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From: Ashington, England.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffroK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

One of the toughest things about playing MrKane RE the ground war is he never seems to run out of supplies. He is very meticulous in planning his defenses and supplying them accordingly.




I really didn't want to hear that

So how do you hit his resupply base??

You should have some VLR Netties/Emily etc which could hit Ledo at night! (shouldnt have any NF yet)

Make him rebase and have to think a bit.


I've tried night bombing in China and the results have been pathetic, most of the planes don't even find the target.

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 204
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/13/2018 6:39:09 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
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Status: offline 		22nd Aug-7th Sept 42

In the first half of this period SOPAC was the main area of action. He sends his CVs north again and soon and it becomes clear they are covering his landings at Lunga and Tulagi. One of my many subs in the area finally attacks a worthwhile target, putting one torp into Hornet. He gets revenge the next day as he retreats by setting all his carrier bombers to ASW and they sink 6 of my subs in one day. The KB was back at Truk had no chance of getting close enough to intercept, although I got revenge by copying his ASW trick and got a few sub sinking sounds over the next few turns..... Lunga is already up to a level 3 airfield, and Port Moresby size 7 with 150 fighters so I won't be flying any offensive missions in that direction! Rabual is also size 7, I also have Shortlands at level 3, Lae at 4 and I'm building up Gasmata and Kavieng. Looks like this could be the main battle ground in the not too distant future.

Meanwhile back in China I decided to try and be a bit crafty with my stack sitting north of Sian. I moved it away another hex, then detached the 2 tank divs up around to the NE side of the mountain range with the goal being Lanchow, the rest of the stack I moved back to one hex from Sian. I don't think he realised what I had done as my tank divs were not spotted until one hex from the target. Just before they cross the river into the hex from the east they are attacked my 30-40 B17s that disrupt them but they still manage to bring the forts down to 0. He only had about 50 AV there. Over the next few days he continually attacks my tanks sending their disruption into the 90s and I cannot capture the damn base. Finally they get a few days respite and Lanchow falls. Whilst all this is going on I move the infantry stack away from Sian towards the north west. They break through some weak blocking units and onto the dot base Tienshui, which is also taken. This seems to have caught him flat footed. He has moved the majority of his troops out of Sian after me but I cannot see them having any chance of defeating me in x3 terrain. We shall see. Central China is still totally stalemated for the time being.

(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 205
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/17/2018 3:23:27 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
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From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		8th-21st Sept 42

The bore in the pacific continues. I send a large group of Kates and Zeros from Shortlands to attack ships at Lunga. It costs me 50 Zeros and 10 Kates to sink a couple of APs and old DDs

Recon of Calcutta shows he has 300 fighters and the same number of bombers there, this could be in preparation for an invasion of Burma. It would make sense as it would enable him to get more supplies into China if he retakes it. I'm in two minds whether to try and hold it for as long as possible or pull out and dig in at the Rangoon/Moulmein area.

(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 206
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/17/2018 4:06:35 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

I send a large group of Kates and Zeros from Shortlands to attack ships at Lunga. It costs me 50 Zeros and 10 Kates to sink a couple of APs and old DDs


For the Allies AP's are critical assets in their own right, and most of them change to APA's which makes them even more critical. Sounds like a good trade.

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 207
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/18/2018 10:58:25 AM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

I send a large group of Kates and Zeros from Shortlands to attack ships at Lunga. It costs me 50 Zeros and 10 Kates to sink a couple of APs and old DDs


For the Allies AP's are critical assets in their own right, and most of them change to APA's which makes them even more critical. Sounds like a good trade.


I wish, they were crappy little dutch ones.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 208
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/18/2018 11:06:25 AM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		22nd-30th Sept 42

A bit of movement in China, having moved most of his troops out of Sian to meet my northern threat I'm now on the verge of taking it, then I can look west towards Ankang.

Shokaku and Zuikaku complete an important upgrade to get radar and are headed back to rejoin the rest of the KB. The M3a version of the Zero starts production next month as well as the IIa Oscar, however the IIb Oscar should not be far behind and it gets a nice bump in speed plus armour. Most of my sqds are still flying the Ic which is inferior to the likes of his Hurricanes and the latest P40.

(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 209
RE: Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A) - 5/19/2018 1:52:19 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		1st-15th Oct 42

Total tedium at the moment. In China I kick him out of Sian and am marching to Ankang from the south but he has sizeable blocking forces in the two hexes to the SE so that will be another long slog. To be honest I'm thinking of pulling all the divs that I bought from Manchuria out of China and sending them to defensive positions elsewhere. His airforce is starting to become active in northern Burma and I think this may be a prelude to a land invasion from through the woods as I have detected a couple of ground units just south of the border......or it could be a bluff, I guess I will find out soon enough.

I have to admit this game has been really hard work. Kane seems to be totally risk averse and apart from the odd CAP trap in China I've hardly ever seen his airforce. There has been no warship vs warship combat of any kind since January. Of course he is playing it smart and waiting to amass the big hammer before striking, but god its so boring waiting.

< Message edited by Miller -- 5/19/2018 4:54:41 PM >

(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 210
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