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RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR

 
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RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/9/2018 11:52:26 AM   
Taxman66


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From: Columbia, MD. USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva

USA can only invest 2 chits in spain iirc. If both sides are at max chits, then the Axis as a 1% chance per turn to sway Spain.


This is correct.

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"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 31
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/9/2018 4:12:57 PM   
Sugar

 

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Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Sure, sorry about that misinformation.

Another misleading was the DE not to fire the same turn Casablanca fell into Axis' hands; in fact it did immediately.

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 32
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/10/2018 2:20:13 AM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2055
Joined: 11/30/2013
Status: offline 		The Allies have resigned. I will report more tomorrow.

< Message edited by crispy131313 -- 4/10/2018 2:46:29 AM >

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Post #: 33
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/10/2018 3:13:17 AM   
jjdenver

 

Posts: 2247
Joined: 11/2/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar
[image][URL=http://www.bild.me][/URL][/image]


Honestly, this picture is ridiculous. Something has to be done about air. Maybe each HQ should only be able to support and give supply to 1 air unit, or maybe 2 air units. And the power of air strikes should be toned down or the expense of air replacements increased significantly. And maybe even a rule that air units can only base in clear terrain or cities. Also a rule that air units can't be adjacent to any other air unit. I like this game but it's really hard to take it even a little bit seriously unless something is done about airpower. This obviously isn't a super-realistic game but it has to be a little bit realistic. This is just silliness.

I recently had someone blow through Turkey in 2 (or maybe 3) turns by massing the whole Luftwaffe there and just destroying completely every Turkish unit that showed up. It's really a bit goofy - air should be a support arm, not the whole show.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 34
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/10/2018 10:47:16 AM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline 		Many players have been questioning this for a long time. I doubt anything will change.

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Post #: 35
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/10/2018 10:13:05 PM   
Ktonos

 

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Status: offline 		Guys, as Crispy said there are 1000 MPPs of HQs there. The player also chose to invest several hundreds of MPPs to operate some of these planes there, not counting the operating costs or time needed to move them back. This is an expensive and time consuming thing to do in game, no wonder not every one does it.

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Post #: 36
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/10/2018 11:53:50 PM   
Harun

 

Posts: 47
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Status: offline 		It suggests to me that DE-603 is overpowered in some way if that much firepower in one group is worth it. I guess its fairly safe because no allied units can damage German ground units enough, at that point in the game. The support role has been reversed.

By the way, the total value of the units is not important. Would you not buy that air force anyways, to fight in Russia? I think its the operating that is too cheap.


(in reply to Ktonos)
Post #: 37
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/11/2018 12:07:16 AM   
Ktonos

 

Posts: 282
Joined: 3/16/2018
Status: offline 		I meant the value of the extra HQs, not the bombers. Operating the HQs and the bombers to go and then return are the entire war production effort of a month. Yes, in my opinion either operating costs should scale with distance - maybe only for air units - and as I said in another thread dedicated to the subject, I think operating to North Africa maybe should have the air units be auto-hit, the severity of the hit being based on who controls Malta, Sicily and Crete.

But in the end none of this are game breakers to me. One person decided he wants to play the game the same way every time and he mastered that way. I doubt that all experienced axis players follow this sequence of moves.

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Post #: 38
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/11/2018 2:18:35 AM   
Sugar

 

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Status: offline 		Spain is just beneficial, it`s the stragical meaning of Gibraltar which justifies the effort: with Gibraltar in Axis' hands the med. is closed; Rome, Cairo and the RM are safe. With a little luck allied players could take Italy out of war by occupying Rome, together with all their units, providing huge amounts of plunder bonus. Even if the Germans were able to retake Rome, the damage would be of strategical value. Cairo would be unobtainable against allied sea superiority.

The Axis will never be able to win a war in the long run, their forcepool can't compete with the allied, and their possible tech. advantage is also limited. Therefore they'll have to win a DV.

By the way, it would have been relatively easy to stop this advance.




(in reply to Ktonos)
Post #: 39
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/11/2018 3:43:36 AM   
elxaime

 

Posts: 304
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I feel somewhat better that even an elite Allied player has succumbed to the Crisp One, as I am currently being demolished as Allies by him in a game using his wonderful FWII v.15 mod. I am very grateful for the lesson, however painful, as I am learning a lot and this seems the best way to improve your skills. I have found that playing against the AI does not prepare you for PBEM other than basic mechanics - as Han Solo said, combat against remotes is one thing, against the living is another (RIP Han).

I have wracked my brain for a solution that allows Allies to hold Cairo against a good Axis player who commits substantial resources and I can't see how it can be done without denuding the UK and making a successful Sea Lion possible.

One Allied strategy may be to take the Soviet approach - just tech up the bare necessary to get infantry and antiaircraft levels up, use all the remaining MPs to stock Egypt early with as many corps and armies as you can, and pray you get infantry level 2 before the Axis tide submerges you. The UK will have a terrible economy and otherwise minimal tech aside from what they need to keep the Royal Navy and Fighters competitive, but the goal would be mere survival in Cairo. The downside is that even this may not be enough, especially if the Axis deploys a death star of massed bombers, in which case you have the worst of both worlds. Unlike the Soviet Union, there isn't much strategic depth in Egypt. Once you lose Cairo, you lose a lot of economy and what you are able to retreat to Palestine with just gets hounded and maybe some escape to Iraq, assuming you overthrew Rashid Ali.

I realize people don't like to give up their secrets, but if some expert level player were to post a Allied tutorial on how to hold the Middle East I would be an avid reader.

I have to add that in every PBEM I have been in as Allies, Cairo falls. It doesn't matter what you do, and your limits of resources and things like the concurrent crisis in Iraq add to the picture. Whatever deterrence there is to all-out Axis assault in the Mediterranean, they don't seem to deter anyone, which means the benefits consistently outweigh the drawbacks to the extent it is a no-brainer that happens 100 percent of the time (exceptions are new Axis players like myself who didn't get the memo or aren't skilled enough yet to make it happen). Again, would be interesting to hear more, as the designer has said the tourney results show more even outcomes in terms of the entire war. However I suspect that even the Allied victories include losing Cairo.


< Message edited by elxaime -- 4/11/2018 2:22:19 PM >

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Post #: 40
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/11/2018 5:47:16 PM   
Harun

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 1/16/2018
Status: offline 		OK, I can see the logic of that.

Obviously any WW 2 game, we have the hindsight of history and we play repeated games, so we can "learn" that different strategies are important.

Though, that decision 603 is looming large. Assume you couldn't know it would fire (as in real life) then wiping out the UK forces and having German forces take Gibraltar would be your actual plan...not "take a specific town so that Franco makes a 100% decision to join.)

If we were to test this with uncertainty, you might wipe out the UK forces and take Gibraltar but not get the Spanish decision. It just makes that decision a bit easier.

Very interesting to think about. As gameplay, I can't fault it. We all know the decision is there, that you know you have time before Russia, etc.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 41
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/11/2018 5:51:41 PM   
Harun

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 1/16/2018
Status: offline 		I think the AARs have been really exciting in the regard, and the tourney, too.

I'm looking forward to Taxman vs. Sugar!

(in reply to elxaime)
Post #: 42
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/11/2018 5:59:20 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harun

I think the AARs have been really exciting in the regard, and the tourney, too.

I'm looking forward to Taxman vs. Sugar!


Look at you taxman! Went from the battle of the newbie to the hero of the people in few short months.

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Post #: 43
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/11/2018 6:38:48 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
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From: Columbia, MD. USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harun

I think the AARs have been really exciting in the regard, and the tourney, too.

I'm looking forward to Taxman vs. Sugar!


I would get crushed.
I have 0 pbem experience as Axis, and can manage shakey wins vs. Average AI.
As the allies, I have no ideas how to stop his steamroll.

_____________________________

"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

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Post #: 44
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/11/2018 6:50:44 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harun

I think the AARs have been really exciting in the regard, and the tourney, too.

I'm looking forward to Taxman vs. Sugar!


Look at you taxman! Went from the battle of the newbie to the hero of the people in few short months.


I don't think Sugar is going to make mistakes that my opponents have been making (excluding that rofl stomp you gave me). Even then I don't think I can 'win' my current game until middle 1946 at best. If I hadn't gotten incredibly lucky with Spain, I think I might have lost my current game or eaily gone to 1947 last turn without taking Germany out.


_____________________________

"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 45
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/16/2018 7:10:24 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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Status: offline 		Crispy where's our post-mortem?

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Post #: 46
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/21/2018 9:45:28 PM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2055
Joined: 11/30/2013
Status: offline 		Thanks for reminding me KorutZelva. I can't not re-open the campaign so unfortunately I do not have any final images that I can share but I can make some final comments.

My main objective in this match was to prepare the USSR for war rather then wait for it happen at the Axis player's leisure, and that entailed a very large amount of MPP invested early into USSR diplomacy by both France and the UK. Expecting a very calculated match it was my assumption that the Axis would take actions to keep Soviet mobilization low (such as no DOW on Belgium) and also not prioritize Barbarossa, both of which eventually proved right. The USSR was collecting 185 MPP per turn by the time France had fallen and I felt I had succeeded in this aspect. By the time German attacked the Soviets had Tanks II, and at the time of surrender in spring of 1942 I was about 1-2 turns away from Tanks III, and I was already researching Infantry III, the Soviets were holding firmly at Smolensk and Dnepropetrovsk, and I was still waiting for Soviet forces to transfer from the Far East.

Despite being very satisfied with the Eastern Front my taste for the game had soured exponentially as I was systemically defeated in the other theaters of war. Having chosen to neglect mainly naval warfare as the Allies, I had satisfactory ground forces deployed in Africa and felt I had protected against DE 603 shenanigans with my Algerian gambit. As it became apparent that the British were being pulled into an MPP wasting Vacuum in Egypt against an expanded Luftwaffe and additional Tanks Corps the 8th Army, US supplied Tanks, and both British HQ's sailed for Casablanca to ensure an Allied foothold would remain in Africa. As a backup I had DOW'd Syria to keep Iraq from enacting their coup, with the hope that we could maintain our foothold in Kuwait should we look to re-enter the middle east at a later date.

After the fall of Egypt it is well known by the pics in this short AAR that the advancing Luftwaffe with some ground support were able to conquer Morocco and Sugar eventually DOW'd Iraq to capture Kuwait, again denying any entry point onto the continent. This systemic elimination of possible theaters (including the Iberian Peninsula when Spain joined) provides many benefits for the Axis and I'm sure no explanation is needed. Their are limited options for the UK to defend against this systematic elimination tactic due to aircraft battles being very expensive, so the power of the Luftwaffe is exponential in creating imbalance through this period of war.

In retrospect I can only now wonder if the Soviets were set up well enough that I could have held the Axis back long enough for the Western Allies to win the eventual war of attrition as I had originally planed, and I actually think they were personally. But my own personal morale in this match was essentially shattered by the Luftwaffe capability in North Africa and I even voiced some rare frustration with the capability of the Luftwaffe in one of the main board threads in response. Secondly I found that essentially the Germans don't need to attack the USSR in 1941, it is actually just a sideshow formality as more important objectives can be achieved in North Africa (which seems incredibly odd). I think the illusion that USSR matters has come from the bias of my own rendition of the campaign, in which if Fall Blau fails to meet objectives by Dec 1942 German and USSR morale will essentially flip, and their will be Axis oil shortages. As well I am used to Germany needing to capture Soviet MPP, but that clearly isn't an objective in the vanilla campaign as Germany had Industry V by spring 1942.

But in the end I lost against what is heralded as the best Axis player on the forum, so I humbly accept my defeat. Good match Sugar!



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(in reply to KorutZelva)
Post #: 47
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/22/2018 12:10:39 AM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		I agree the Sovyets are ever too late to be a threat after losses in all other theatres, even if a player is as well prepared as Chrispy was. I mostly don't feel the need for a DoW before autumn of 41, and just to destroy the alarmed units.

My solution would be to reincrease attack values, cancel the need to develop Inf. 3, and exchange some tac. bombers for tanks. The Sovyets should also have more units, and maybe to compensate additional german units could be placed along the russian border in case of a DoW. Similar to what Chrispy already implemented in his famous mod.

quote:

Good match Sugar!


My pleasure!

(in reply to crispy131313)
Post #: 48
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/22/2018 4:20:04 PM   
Elessar2


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Status: offline 		The Russians should also get substantial hits towards a DoW for each British/Allied country which falls (this may already be true, note)...

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Post #: 49
RE: Crispy vs Sugar - Mini AAR - 4/22/2018 5:12:32 PM   
elxaime

 

Posts: 304
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for the interesting AAR. It mirrors my own experience as Allies versus good Axis players, in that the Eastern Front becomes moot after the Axis steamrolls the Middle East/North Africa and there is little the UK can do against a good player as you are in reactive mode. There does seem to be a high risk gambit where you pile everything into surprising the Axis with an all-out defense of France, so as to delay and attrition the Germans and delay their attentions elsewhere, but I am skeptical this could work against an elite player. I am glad to see the pending changes on Spain and Vichy, as in most games I have played the Axis doesn't seem deterred from DOW everyone and their mother, and usually gets Spain through diplomatic means. Yes, this moves up US entry and may help the Soviets too, but the return - Axis dominance of the rest of the map - means it is very likely the Russians get ground to powder before the US becomes a factor.

On the other hand, there does still need to be rewards for good Axis play.

< Message edited by elxaime -- 4/22/2018 6:14:35 PM >

(in reply to Elessar2)
Post #: 50
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