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Can someone explain these results - 4/12/2018 9:06:24 AM

Asberdies

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I am playing my firsts pvp game and i really find battle results quite odd. Is there something i miss completely or i am just doomed :p
Turn is january 41 with blizzard and German attacking, RU Leader is Konev (6 7 6 7 6 7 1 1)in 3 of the fight and Moskalenko(8 7 5 5 5 5 11) in 1.
To determine if i am lucky in a fight i look at initial and final CV of both side. As far as i know initial and final cv depends on air support , SU, weather, terrain and Leader.
In all the fight on the ss my cv is divided by 2 and Ger cv is multiplied by 2 on average, only one is reduced.
Now these result is what i get since the beginning of game on every side, whatever the terain or the support i get, be it german attack or mine. My cv is X2 in about 1 fight in 10, even with leader like Zukhov or Rokossovski
So do i miss something?

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< Message edited by Asberdies -- 4/12/2018 9:19:56 AM >

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/12/2018 9:07:01 AM

Asberdies

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also

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/12/2018 9:08:33 AM

Asberdies

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also

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/12/2018 9:09:00 AM

Asberdies

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also

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/12/2018 2:13:00 PM

Telemecus

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Just as a first stab at an answer.

All the screenshots are of bad weather so usually that means a weather modification has not been considered. But you say this has occurred in all weather types.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asberdies
To determine if i am lucky in a fight i look at initial and final CV of both side. As far as i know initial and final cv depends on air support , SU, weather, terrain and Leader.

It is important to distinguish cv and disruption. Artillery SUs for example do not, in normal settings, add any CV. But they do disrupt enemy units so they do not participate in the battle and so their CV is not counted. Air power is usually the same way. So they will not add to their sides CV, but can subtract a lot from an opponent's. This may be a big part of why you are losing CV?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asberdies
even with leader like Zukhov or Rokossovski

if you have so many units under a good leader that they have command penalties, then they may as well be a bad leader. Do they have a command penalty?

All of the screenshots above are taking place in clear terrain with minimal fortification. About the best possible scenario for disruption by air power and artillery. And also likely to give you a negative terrain impact on your CV.

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/12/2018 2:47:38 PM

Asberdies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Just as a first stab at an answer.

All the screenshots are of bad weather so usually that means a weather modification has not been considered. But you say this has occurred in all weather types.

And its 1st winter so German Su should be more affected than SU one

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asberdies
To determine if i am lucky in a fight i look at initial and final CV of both side. As far as i know initial and final cv depends on air support , SU, weather, terrain and Leader.

It is important to distinguish cv and disruption. Artillery SUs for example do not, in normal settings, add any CV. But they do disrupt enemy units so they do not participate in the battle and so their CV is not counted. Air power is usually the same way. So they will not add to their sides CV, but can subtract a lot from an opponent's. This may be a big part of why you are losing CV?

Ya i know that, and only RU got bomber, German ones are hiding

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asberdies
even with leader like Zukhov or Rokossovski

if you have so many units under a good leader that they have command penalties, then they may as well be a bad leader. Do they have a command penalty?

I dont have so many units with good leaders, i am very carefull of not overloading Army Generals and my front Gen are not overloaded either. I said even with good leaders my final cv is mostly same or worse than initial.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

All of the screenshots above are taking place in clear terrain with minimal fortification. About the best possible scenario for disruption by air power and artillery. And also likely to give you a negative terrain impact on your CV.

Its true but whatever the terrain the average result is the same for the final CV^^ . And when its me attacking i got the same bad final CV

< Message edited by Asberdies -- 4/12/2018 2:51:41 PM >

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/12/2018 10:16:31 PM

Crackaces

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What I speak from is putting the messaging level on 7 and over many hours watching device vs device combat.

1. First attack Germans come with > 300 art pieces and 25 AFV's on the attack that artillery fires first and caused quite a bit of disruption ... I would bet that SP flak got a tank or (2) ..Your final CV is 13.7 you retreat
BTW) The German infantry has lots of CV ...

2. Second attack .. the German's hasty vs similar force in art and afv .. He gets a combat bonus you are halved .. but Your real CV is enough to hold

3. Third attack .. Germans bring over 400 AFV's to the fray (Look at the rules how much CV each tank brings ..) You fail a leadership check and I suspect the armor commander passed as well as good firepower from the AFV .. you go home now

4. Fourth attack hasty .. he passes leadership checks and mot flak comes with some (I think the 768th is 210mm?) firepower I suspect the flak devices capped most of that 13 (about 10% total) of AFV's.

All that said .. it is disruption not damage or destroyed that causes adverse adjusted CV ... it is the right combination of art and other firepower combined with stuff that counts enough for CV when the shooting stops to win battles.

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/13/2018 5:16:34 AM

Kantti

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I would also like to point out, that in this game in general offense is favored over defence. When in offence CV often multiplies (due to more leader rolls, attacker generally having more artillery to disrupt or something, don't know, but this is clear trend that has been accepted here in forums more than once), in defence even good leaders rarely get more than 1,5x bonus and more often have their cv even reduced.

Another point is that in the matches you loose, you have only tank brigades defending. Even if they have some CV, they have quite a few elements and their cv comes from really fragile Soviet tanks. This means that in defensive combat they don't have true staying power of an infantry unit. They have so few elements that even if their initial cv would be enough to repulse the attack, they get overwhelmed in combat resolution step by sheer number of attackers and are unable to fight back. Same holds true vice versa and explains why 100k soviets + 1k artillery (without +1 bonus) are generally enough to displace any lone German division in almost any terrain or fort level even in 1941 even if Germans would have initially higher CV than attacking horde.

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/13/2018 7:42:04 AM

Asberdies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

What I speak from is putting the messaging level on 7 and over many hours watching device vs device combat.

1. First attack Germans come with > 300 art pieces and 25 AFV's on the attack that artillery fires first and caused quite a bit of disruption ... I would bet that SP flak got a tank or (2) ..Your final CV is 13.7 you retreat
BTW) The German infantry has lots of CV ...

2. Second attack .. the German's hasty vs similar force in art and afv .. He gets a combat bonus you are halved .. but Your real CV is enough to hold

3. Third attack .. Germans bring over 400 AFV's to the fray (Look at the rules how much CV each tank brings ..) You fail a leadership check and I suspect the armor commander passed as well as good firepower from the AFV .. you go home now

The failed leader check, its a guess or something make you say that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

4. Fourth attack hasty .. he passes leadership checks and mot flak comes with some (I think the 768th is 210mm?) firepower I suspect the flak devices capped most of that 13 (about 10% total) of AFV's.

All that said .. it is disruption not damage or destroyed that causes adverse adjusted CV ... it is the right combination of art and other firepower combined with stuff that counts enough for CV when the shooting stops to win battles.

To make it clear i am absolutly not arguing about final result or win loss of fight, but about the initial and final CV of RU

< Message edited by Asberdies -- 4/13/2018 7:43:48 AM >

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/13/2018 7:44:48 AM

Asberdies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kantti

I would also like to point out, that in this game in general offense is favored over defence. When in offence CV often multiplies (due to more leader rolls, attacker generally having more artillery to disrupt or something, don't know, but this is clear trend that has been accepted here in forums more than once), in defence even good leaders rarely get more than 1,5x bonus and more often have their cv even reduced.

Another point is that in the matches you loose, you have only tank brigades defending. Even if they have some CV, they have quite a few elements and their cv comes from really fragile Soviet tanks. This means that in defensive combat they don't have true staying power of an infantry unit. They have so few elements that even if their initial cv would be enough to repulse the attack, they get overwhelmed in combat resolution step by sheer number of attackers and are unable to fight back. Same holds true vice versa and explains why 100k soviets + 1k artillery (without +1 bonus) are generally enough to displace any lone German division in almost any terrain or fort level even in 1941 even if Germans would have initially higher CV than attacking horde.

To make it clear i am absolutly not arguing about final result or win loss of fight, but about the initial and final CV of RU

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/13/2018 8:06:45 AM

Kantti

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I understand where you are coming from. I still would like to emphasize that in defence CV is generally less than expected (ranging from 0.5-1.5xinitial cv as a rule of a thumb) and in offence it is more (ranging from 0.75->5.00x original value). I don't know what in the engine makes this so (does attacker make more rolls or having generally more elements when attacking or what), but this seems to be usually the case.

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/13/2018 12:29:07 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kantti

I understand where you are coming from. I still would like to emphasize that in defence CV is generally less than expected (ranging from 0.5-1.5xinitial cv as a rule of a thumb) and in offence it is more (ranging from 0.75->5.00x original value). I don't know what in the engine makes this so (does attacker make more rolls or having generally more elements when attacking or what), but this seems to be usually the case.

What I generally find is that offensive artillery fires first (offensive long ranged stuff) and the more involved in the attack means more defensive devices and squads disrupted. You don't have damage or kill things to get the job done .. disruption of a device before it has participated in a combat round has effectively done 2 things .. stopped its firepower and stop it from participating in CV.

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/13/2018 12:31:01 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Asberdies

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

What I speak from is putting the messaging level on 7 and over many hours watching device vs device combat.

1. First attack Germans come with > 300 art pieces and 25 AFV's on the attack that artillery fires first and caused quite a bit of disruption ... I would bet that SP flak got a tank or (2) ..Your final CV is 13.7 you retreat
BTW) The German infantry has lots of CV ...

2. Second attack .. the German's hasty vs similar force in art and afv .. He gets a combat bonus you are halved .. but Your real CV is enough to hold

3. Third attack .. Germans bring over 400 AFV's to the fray (Look at the rules how much CV each tank brings ..) You fail a leadership check and I suspect the armor commander passed as well as good firepower from the AFV .. you go home now

The failed leader check, its a guess or something make you say that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

4. Fourth attack hasty .. he passes leadership checks and mot flak comes with some (I think the 768th is 210mm?) firepower I suspect the flak devices capped most of that 13 (about 10% total) of AFV's.

All that said .. it is disruption not damage or destroyed that causes adverse adjusted CV ... it is the right combination of art and other firepower combined with stuff that counts enough for CV when the shooting stops to win battles.

To make it clear i am absolutly not arguing about final result or win loss of fight, but about the initial and final CV of RU

The proportion of the adjusted CV decrease to the enemy firepower available. You are reduced almost 1/2 .. either the leadership failed, but I cannot see all those AFV devices effected this combat to disrupt 1/2 of your infantry squads. This is like "stuka" result. So I suspect effective AFV results in combination with your devices being totally ineffectual (I would expect mire German infantry disrupted affecting CV) that means to me a failed check of some kind.

< Message edited by Crackaces -- 4/13/2018 12:37:29 PM >

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/13/2018 1:21:55 PM

SparkleyTits

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Before you look too deep into the combat engine I would imagine the two losses would of come from the simplest answer of manpower differencials as you were outnumbered 6-1 and 20-1 which has a big effect on modified end result CV

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/13/2018 2:04:48 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Before you look too deep into the combat engine I would imagine the two losses would of come from the simplest answer of manpower differencials as you were outnumbered 6-1 and 20-1 which has a big effect on modified end result CV

Certainly manpower gives a lot of CV to the mix .. my discussion is on the adjusted CV in particular.

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/13/2018 2:14:38 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits
Before you look too deep into the combat engine I would imagine the two losses would of come from the simplest answer of manpower differencials as you were outnumbered 6-1 and 20-1 which has a big effect on modified end result CV

Certainly manpower gives a lot of CV to the mix .. my discussion is on the adjusted CV in particular.

Was there a point once made - which I have not properly assimilated - that crossing certain manpower ratio thresholds leads to special CV adjustments. So if you go through these thresholds the CV gets disproportionately adjusted by some special rule?

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/13/2018 3:31:45 PM

Asberdies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Before you look too deep into the combat engine I would imagine the two losses would of come from the simplest answer of manpower differencials as you were outnumbered 6-1 and 20-1 which has a big effect on modified end result CV

I specified that my arguing was not about combat result but on the final CV of RU

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/13/2018 3:36:16 PM

Asberdies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits
Before you look too deep into the combat engine I would imagine the two losses would of come from the simplest answer of manpower differencials as you were outnumbered 6-1 and 20-1 which has a big effect on modified end result CV

Certainly manpower gives a lot of CV to the mix .. my discussion is on the adjusted CV in particular.

Was there a point once made - which I have not properly assimilated - that crossing certain manpower ratio thresholds leads to special CV adjustments. So if you go through these thresholds the CV gets disproportionately adjusted by some special rule?

i dont think so, i would rather think when the manpower ratio is huge, the side with the least manpower got hamered so may time in the fight, chances of being disrupted increase exponetially.

Also at some time i thought that attacking from multiple hexesides would increase your final cv, wich is logical and is a case in a lot of wargames, but some times it dont seems to work like that when i was loking at result

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/13/2018 3:41:15 PM

Asberdies

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I want to add, the reason i had this question was not because i had these 4 adverse results, it is because in all the fights of the turn, perhaps 10 fight, my cv was divided by 1.5 to 2 and only one was about same as starting cv and that was happening even with good leader like Konev wich i uses in those screenshot. I also had same result with final cv when i was attaking, doing aroud 10 attack a turn

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/13/2018 8:37:32 PM

Sammy5IsAlive

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Asberdies

quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Before you look too deep into the combat engine I would imagine the two losses would of come from the simplest answer of manpower differencials as you were outnumbered 6-1 and 20-1 which has a big effect on modified end result CV

I specified that my arguing was not about combat result but on the final CV of RU

As Sparkley Tits says though where there is a big difference in forces committed it has an effect on the modified end CV. So an outnumbered/outgunned stack will often see the kind of drops you've observed in the battles involving the tank brigades. On the subject of armoured units - for a long time at the beginning of the game the Russian armoured/motorised units are 'paper tigers' as whilst they have a high displayed/initial CV, a large part of that CV is made up by obsolete tanks which melt away at the first sign of contact with better equipped German units (especially when their Panzers get involved).

That still leaves the battles you've posted involving equal numbers and infantry units only. With those my guess is your units are running low on ammo. The supply modifier in Blizzard conditions is harsh for both sides, and the Soviets have an additional modifier early on (not sure how long for) where they only receive a proportion of the ammo that they otherwise would. As far as I can tell the battles you have posted are at the extent of your blizzard advance so it may well be that your units are much further from their railheads than the German ones. If your units in that area are ones that have consistently been involved in fighting and making that progress it maybe that they have been running at an ammo deficit for a number of turnss and are now running very short. I believe that low ammo is something that is not taken into account in calculating displayed/initial CV and only takes effect during combat resolution.

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/16/2018 8:43:27 AM

morvael

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There is extra pre-combat attrition (causing initial CV drop) for the Germans during first blizzard.

Axis hasty attacks during first blizzard = recipe for disaster. You'll end up fighting with 20-25% of your CV AND penalties to fire accuracy (meaning you will damage/destroy less enemy elements, which in turn will damage/destroy more of your elements).

< Message edited by morvael -- 4/16/2018 8:47:13 AM >

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/17/2018 9:11:39 AM

Asberdies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

There is extra pre-combat attrition (causing initial CV drop) for the Germans during first blizzard.

Axis hasty attacks during first blizzard = recipe for disaster. You'll end up fighting with 20-25% of your CV AND penalties to fire accuracy (meaning you will damage/destroy less enemy elements, which in turn will damage/destroy more of your elements).

Thanks Morvael, but the discussion is about RU final CV not German

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Post #: 22

RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/17/2018 10:09:30 AM

Kantti

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Asberdies, there have been already plethora of people giving you possible explanations. :) Foremost is the disparity in number of elements in fights concerning tank brigades. They should be taken separately and not as a trend in combination with other fights. Other fights may or may not be isolated occurrences where fatigue, supply, ammunition, bad luck, leader rolls etc. might play a part. And as said in general defensive cv tends to get halved easier than attacking cv.

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RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/17/2018 1:15:11 PM

morvael

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Small units with high CV per element tend to be brittle, disable a few elements and their power to take/hold terrain is gone.

A unit with 3x3CV elements will be more resilient than a unit with 1x9CV element.

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Post #: 24

RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/17/2018 4:26:05 PM

Asberdies

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ok, so i guess the 2 fights with Tanks bgd was not good examples, but when i chose the fights to show, i was mainly looking for heavily reduced final cv with good leaders. For the cv i think experience, fatigue and moral are all counted in initial cv. I must also specify my units were all in supply, and the ammuniton level were > 150% for the tank bgd and >80% for the inf div.
The best explanation for me comes from crackaces about failed check, which is the main reason of those final cv for me.

I take advantage of this to ask one more question :)
Is it intended that the calculation of the final cv is not detailled with each factor affecting it, or was it just made like that and it would have been too much work, or didnt designer wanted player been able to decipher each part of combat resolution?

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Post #: 25

RE: Can someone explain these results - 4/30/2018 4:06:13 PM

Nuklearius

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One thing I suspect are the Blizzard rules. If I remember right they add a flat x2 modifier in displayed combat value to all Soviet Units and a bad modifier to the Germans. But this is purely visual, to show that Soviet Units operate at higher efficiency, it doesn't reflect the actual combat power that is being calculated and used by the game engine (which in Blizzard is affected by a lot of modifiers that you cannot just reduce to a flat x2).

My assumption is that the initial combat power, that is displayed in the battle screen, uses this distorted number and then is brought back to the real number by the ingame calculations. And as you can see with the casualties, your units are definitely overperforming, its just that their combat value gets inflated by the game rules.

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Post #: 26