The Yamato: a paper tiger?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> The Yamato: a paper tiger?

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The Yamato: a paper tiger? - 6/2/2003 8:08:46 AM

Drex

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I have had the Yamato as the Japanese but I've only been able to use her on bombardments - no bit deal. But has anyone been able to use her in a surface engagement> How did she do? As allied, Soulblazer sent her in a bombardment TF and my PTs put 3 torps into her and sent her back to Tokyo forever. Has UV toned the big ship down?

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- 6/2/2003 8:24:42 AM

pasternakski

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Well, Drex, there are those who maintain that the big ship wasn't that "toney" to start with. Most of the analysis I've run across rate the Yamatos a notch or two below the Iowas and not much more than even money against the treaty BBs.

The Japanese certainly did not risk Yamato and Musashi in the narrow waters around the Solomons, and maybe for good reason. Big target. The Americans may have gotten lucky getting Washington and South Dakota back from their night melee in the slot. It just wasn't big battleship times or territory. Your PTs may have delivered a very historical message (how could you MISS that thing with a torpedo, anyway?) Besides, can you imagine what the Cactus SBDs could have done to a damaged Yamato the next morning? They likely wouldn't have sunk her, but the superstructure would have looked like a can of Chef Boyardee. System damage 70+?

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- 6/2/2003 8:25:03 AM

Yamamoto

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I've had her in many surface combats and she is FAR from a paper tiger. One hit with her 18" guns on an enemy battleship gave the graphic animation with a lot of black smoke so you know it hurt when it hit. Also, anything but another battleships' guns just bounces off (and sometimes battleship guns bounce as well if you get lucky).

Still, by WW2 the era of the battleship had passed and the most use you'll get out of her will be bombardments except for the rare surface action. She's really mre for bragging rights about having the "biggest and the baddest" than about affecting most campaigns. I'd rather have had a big 127 plane CV instead.

Yamamoto

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Post #: 3

- 6/2/2003 8:42:08 AM

SoulBlazer

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Drex, I recall you using the Yamato several times in our first game with me as the Allies -- taking part in a few surface battles off of Guadalcanal and the Slot, and one final engagement with my battleships in the 'battle of the battlewagons' when I almost sank the ship (checking the game after you surrendered, the sys dame was in the 90's). Musashi also took one of my PT torpedo hits and she spent the rest of the game in port.

Yamato did nice in some surface battles before being crippled by those hits, and Musashi has been hit at least three times yet shrugged off the hits like they were nothing.

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- 6/2/2003 9:08:17 AM

Nasrullah

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Yamato is big and tough, not a paper a tiger, more like a low- grade steel tiger.

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Post #: 5

- 6/2/2003 9:30:18 AM

Drex

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by SoulBlazer
[B]Drex, I recall you using the Yamato several times in our first game with me as the Allies -- taking part in a few surface battles off of Guadalcanal and the Slot, and one final engagement with my battleships in the 'battle of the battlewagons' when I almost sank the ship (checking the game after you surrendered, the sys dame was in the 90's). Musashi also took one of my PT torpedo hits and she spent the rest of the game in port.

Yamato did nice in some surface battles before being crippled by those hits, and Musashi has been hit at least three times yet shrugged off the hits like they were nothing. [/B][/QUOTE] Thanks for reminding me Greg. I no doubt suppressed the incident in my subconscious. Still i wonder if it has figured significantly in any surface battle.

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Yamato is deadly. Don't doubt it. - 6/2/2003 11:07:57 AM

Luskan

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This only happened recently. Combat report was condensed from 4 seperate entries. The problem with Yamato is IJN players expect her to fight in a tf of 25 other big ships. Works so much better as a small ship deal.

I'm trying to reinforce an invasion gone wrong on irau. I sent in too much supply and not enough troops. All CVs on both sides elsewhere. I've culled 4 enemy battleships with airpower so far. 2 left in theatre.

Undamaged Washington and North Carolina, salt Lake and Vincennes with 8 dd escort escorts a tf of 25 big APs packed with two divisions of troops (and an ARM if I remember - the point is that there were 6 INF units, 2 Eng, 2 HQ on those transports).

Catalinas from nevea spot IJN BB headed down the slot, and hudsons and mitchells from Gavigamana and Nevea launch. 34 level bombers with extremely high exp catch the Yamato a couple of hexes out of Irau, and hit her 4 times. No damage.

I don't stop the transports going in thinking Yamato and 4 dds against my finest surface troops - easy pickings.

First the surface combat. battle begins at 8000 yards, long lances blast one of my dds into oblivion. No other hits. Ok - I'm cool. These things happen . . . Combat closes to 6000 yards - lots of "Allies and IJN manouvre" going on. My ships open up, and score a few 5 inch hits and 1 8 inch hit on Yamato - no damage. Still her guns are silent, although the ijn destroyers all fire about 1 shot each. Washington lands a big shell (16 inches?) on the Hamakaze, blows her to hell.

Combat at 5000 yards, still lots of manouvring. My cruisers find form and polish off 2 enemy dds and one of my dds score 16 consecutive 5 inch hits on Yamato. Damned thing isn't smoking. Yamato's guns still silent - Washington and north Carolina still missing the bloody big target.

Combat at 4000 yards. Allies open up - and again Yamato doesn't fire. a couple of 8 inch hits make Yamato smoke, and all other IJN destroyers polished off (they don't sink outright - but they'll sink before the end of turn sort of thing). Finally, North Carolina lands a 16 inch shell hit on Yamato that gets a penetration message - but still only lightly smoking. This obviously jolting Yamato's captain from his slumber - he looks around, realises the allies are with AA gun range, and gives the order to open fire. The following happens - maybe a dozen 18 inch hits - 4 in a row on Vincenens, plenty of smaller shell hits and endless amounts of AA guns hammering away.

Night Time Surface Combat near Irau

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, shell hits 38, on fire
DD Hamakaze, shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage, and is sunk
DD Yubari, shell hits 25, on fire, heavy damage (sinks later)
DD Akigumo, shell hits 12, on fire, heavy damage, sinks later
DD Kamikaze, shell hits 55, on fire, heavy damage, sunk

Allied Ships
BB Washington, shell hits 15, on fire, heavy damage (sinks just before she gets to Luganville)
BB North Carolina, shell hits 41, on fire, heavy damage (survives with 77 sys and gets to Nevea, but is torpedoed on her way back to Noumea and sinks)
CA Vincennes, shell hits 17, on fire, heavy damage, sunk
CA Salt Lake City, shell hits 8, on fire
DD Bagley, torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage, sunk
DD Blue, shell hits 2
DD Ralph Talbot, shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage makes it home
DD Henley, shell hits 21, on fire, heavy damage sinks later
DD Mugford
DD Porter, shell hits 1
DD Balch, shell hits 14, on fire, heavy damage makes it home
DD Arunta, shell hits 33, on fire, heavy damage, sinks later

The good news is that she didn't get amongst the transports.
BB Fuso did that the next turn with 4 DDs in tow - and since I had pulled my entire surface force out (thinking I'd beaten him off for the last time) Fuso and her dds drowned 80% of two divisions and sunk enough transports to really, really hurt.

Captain prone to falling asleep - other than that, Yamato is deadly in a small ship tf (all IJN BBs are).

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- 6/2/2003 12:05:30 PM

CapAndGown

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Yeah, and if she's REAL lucky, she might even sink a CVE! :D

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.. - 6/2/2003 2:18:08 PM

Odin

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This ship is worse when its swimming around one of your bases and you have no torpedo planes in range.

In one of my games it was near Lunga accompanied with some Destroyers, i only had 2 squadrons of Avengers there but they were out of action this time(Low morale, too much damaged aircraft).

Instead it was attacked by a 40+ Dauntless-Attack:

It took 17 1000lb-bomb hits but no bomb were able to penetrate deck armor:mad:

The only way to get rid of it is torpedo attack i think.

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Post #: 9

- 6/2/2003 9:40:28 PM

Drex

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I guess the Yamato is modelled pretty well in UV. But she is susceptible to torpedoes as I explained above. PTs seem very effective as she can't use her main or secondary armament on them.

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Post #: 10

- 6/2/2003 9:53:52 PM

Von Rom

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The results of the historical Yamato - it was vulnerable to torpedoes and attacking aircraft:

Yamato (Battleship, 1941-1945)

Yamato, lead ship of a class of two 65,000-ton (over 72,800-tons at full load) battleships, was built at Kure, Japan. She and her sister, Musashi were by far the largest battleships ever built, even exceeding in size and gun caliber (though not in weight of broadside) the U.S. Navy's abortive Montana class. Their nine 460mm (18.1-inch) main battery guns, which fired 1460kg (3200 pound) armor piercing shells, were the largest battleship guns ever to go to sea, and the two ships' scale of armor protection was also unsurpassed.

Commissioned in December 1941, just over a week after the start of the Pacific war, Yamato served as flagship of Combined Fleet commander Isoroku Yamamoto during the critical battles of 1942. During the following year, she spent most of her time at Truk, as part of a mobile naval force defending Japan's Centeral Pacific bases. Torpedoed by USS Skate (SS-305) in December 1943, Yamato was under repair until April 1944, during which time her anti-aircraft battery was considerably increased. She then took part in the Battle of the Philippine Sea in June and the Battle of Leyte Gulf in October. During the latter action, she was attacked several times by U.S. Navy aircraft, and fired her big guns in an engagement with U.S. escort carriers and destroyers off the island of Samar.

Yamato received comparatively light damage during the Leyte Gulf battle, and was sent home in November 1944. Fitted with additional anti-aircraft machine guns, she was based in Japan during the winter of 1944-45. Attacked by U.S. Navy carrier planes in March 1945, during raids on the Japanese home islands, she was again only lightly damaged. The following month, she was assigned to take part in the suicidal "Ten-Go" Operation, a combined air and sea effort to destroy American naval forces supporting the invasion of Okinawa. On 7 April 1945, while still some 200 miles north of Okinawa, Yamato was attacked by a massive force of U.S. carrier planes and sunk.

Yamato under air attack in 1945:

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- 6/2/2003 11:52:06 PM

denisonh

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drex
[B]I guess the Yamato is modelled pretty well in UV. But she is susceptible to torpedoes as I explained above. PTs seem very effective as she can't use her main or secondary armament on them. [/B][/QUOTE]

That's what DDs are for. (that is the source of their name, I believe)

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- 6/3/2003 3:11:47 AM

Mike_B20

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Yamato is an excellent Dauntless shredder.

Would seriously consider possibly sacrificing her to Dauntlesses if sure of catching US carriers with IJN carriers afterwards.

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- 6/3/2003 8:01:36 AM

estaban

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I had the exact opposite experience with the Yamamoto and dive bombers. She caught 3 1000 pound bombs from Dauntlesses and had to be sent back to Japan with about 35% system damage.

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- 6/3/2003 8:25:27 AM

Drex

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by denisonh
[B]That's what DDs are for. (that is the source of their name, I believe) [/B][/QUOTE] Okkay you got me Denisohn: DD= Dreadnought Destroyers? I don't recommend them against the Yamato or Musashi, better torpedo DBs or PTs.

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- 6/3/2003 8:27:46 AM

GBirk

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drex
[B]Okkay you got me Denisohn: DD= Dreadnought Destroyers? I don't recommend them against the Yamato or Musashi, better torpedo DBs or PTs. [/B][/QUOTE]
"Destroyer" is short for "Torpedo Boat Destroyer", which is what the type was originally called (and why it was originally developed). The "DD" symbol came later (around the 20's in US usage, I think).

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- 6/4/2003 9:15:50 AM

dwesolick

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According to a book I recently finished ("A Glorious Way to Die: The Kamikaze Mission of the Battleship Yamato"--Russell Spurr), the Yamato suffered from a design defect in that the (VERY thick) steel hull was too rigid, with very little 'give' as on USN ships. This caused near misses from bombs, etc to be nearly as destructive as direct hits (popped seams, flooding, etc).

One other interesting fact from the book: during the fatal air attack on Yamato in 45, she had suffered numerous torp hits to one side (I forget if port or starboard) and she had taken on a serious list and which could no longer be corrected. The Japanese officers actually cheered when some Avengers scored torp hits on the non-damaged side bcause the counter-flooding corrected the list.....for a while.

I've only encountered the Yamato once in a ship to ship duel. That was in the Guadalcanal scenario (4 wks, I think). I had a HUGE surface fleet guarding Lunga (NC, & couple other BBs, lots of CAs) and the AI sent Yamato with only a small escort. At first I gulped when I saw that impressive ship, but Yamato and her escort were shredded with little damage on my side.
In another (campaign) game, the AI sent Yamato & escorts (without air cover) to bombard New Guinea (forget which base), well within range of my airbases...she didn't make the return trip. All in all, the AI just ain't too bright.

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