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Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami

 
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Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/25/2018 3:17:44 PM   
John 3rd


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Welcome to a new AAR.

(Taking the open seat in the circle of addicts) "Hello. My name is John and it has been almost two months since my last turn played in War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition..."

It is time to saddle up and gird my loins for battle.

The opponent who has graciously allowed me to whoop his BUTT for the next year, then duck--dodge--punch--and parry with for the next 18 months, and--finally--the man who will work to crush my soul for the remaining two years is MISTER KITAKAMI.

We shall be playing Between the Storms Heavy.

House Rules are being discussed and I am looking forward to the match.

Kitakami has been invited to jump in for a Post before closing it and serious planning begins for the direction of the war.

WELCOME!


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 4/25/2018 3:18:11 PM >


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RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/25/2018 3:19:10 PM   
Lowpe


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Good luck to you both!

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RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/25/2018 3:19:57 PM   
Canoerebel


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Don't accidentally invade Russia, John.

Have fun!

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RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/25/2018 3:20:15 PM   
John 3rd


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From: La Salle, Colorado
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Between the Storms (Scen 55)

Between the Storms (12/20/17)
ALTNAV 1922-1937


The Treaty Mod for AE has been created to reflect a slightly different outcome of the historic Washington and London Naval Conferences to cover the time of 1922-1937. With little changes and tweaks to the Treaty System, a slightly a-historic outcome is produced. The Treaty Years give way to the ramping up of World War Two. Japan grapples with the consequences of exiting the Treaty System and works to create a more balanced Fleet under the able leadership and foresight of Naval Minister Yamamoto Isoroku.

The Washington Conference

Secretary of State Charles Evans Hughes blueprint for naval disarmament gets out and the Japanese stonewall a Naval Conference for a full year. After considerable bickering and pressure being brought to bear, the Conference does take place in 1922 and disarmament is agreed upon, however, there are additions allowed due to the added time to get the meeting going. The whole Mutsu debate is scrapped due to Mutsu actually being ready and deployed at that point. A slightly higher 10:10:7 ratio between Great Britain, the United States, and Japan is agreed upon, allowing for several new outcomes:

1. The Ratio Change to 10:10:7:
a. The Japanese argue to keep the nearly complete battleship Tosa and the Amagi-Class battlecruiser Ishitaka. The Americans gain the fourth Colorado-Class USS Washington and the Battlecruiser USS Constellation (while scrapping the old battleships Florida and Utah and making the Wyoming into a gunnery training ship to maintain balance), Great Britain gets the option to build a pair of Super-Hoods.

b. Tonnages are left open for the British to build two 35,000 Ton battleships (Rodney and Nelson), the United States has 28,000 Ton available, and the Japanese have 18,000 Ton open for new Capital Ships. These warships are designed through the late-20s and are authorized for building at the time of the London Naval Conference. The United States builds a fast Battlecruiser (USS Chesapeake) armed with 4x3 12" Guns while the Japanese build a Light Battlecruiser named Chichibu (2x2 16.1" Guns).

2. The whole subject of CVs is reworked:
a. Two 'experimental' CVs (two Hosho's and two Langley's) are allowed to be built for further carrier experimentation. The Americans convert USS Langley and USS Ely to CVEs and they begin the war at the Panama Canal. Japan has IJN Hosho and Ibuki.
b. Two BC to CV conversions are still allowed. The Americans use all their Treaty tonnage to make Wasp a 4th Yorktown-Class CV. The Japanese back off the failed Ryujo design to build IJN Ryukaku and Karasu while Soryu enters as a Hiryu-Class CV.

3. The Big 3 allow for more research into 'Cruiser' Submarines. Since no one had any real idea of where submarines were headed, this allows for further experimentation. The Americans build an additional Argonaut, Narwhal, and three Seaplane carrying subs. The Japanese add three Mine Layers and four large ocean-going Glen SS, and the French add another Surcouf.

The London Conference

Moving on to the London Conference (1930), the subject of Cruisers is re-worked:
1. Japan--at all costs--sticks to its goal of 70% for CAs (instead of 60%). Japan is authorized to build a total of 14 CAs.

2. Great Britain--who nearly scrapped the treaty due to the issue of CAs and CLs--stands firm over its argument and forces a larger tonnage for CLs. This brings no change to the Treaty since Japan was already at 70% in this category.

3. Both Japan and the United States were looking at hybrid Cruiser—CVs and they force Great Britain, following the example set with the Washington BC—CV Conversions, to allow for two hybrids each to be built in the early-30s. The nations are allowed with ONLY these two vessels to place up to 8" guns on them. USA builds CLV Charlotte and Jacksonville (3x3 6" and 18 Planes), GB builds CAV Melbourne and Wellington (sold/given to those respective navies with 2x2 8" and 15 Planes), and Japan finishes up with CAV Kushiro and Tokachi (3x2 8" and 27 Planes). These hybrids are not true, useful CVLs nor are they true, useful cruisers but they have a unique niche in 1941 and ALL of them can be converted into carriers later in 1942.

***It should be noted that to take maximum advantage of the revised Treaty tonnages, Japan converts several of the oldest CLs into fast ML, builds additional Myoko-Class CAs and keeps the last four Mogami-Class as 6” CLs.


Warship Construction AFTER the Treaty Years

Battleship Question and Decision

Staying historical the Japanese decide to build the super-battleships of the Yamato-Class. All four are represented in this Mod. Shinano and Aki are built as BBs and they will use BUCKETS of shipyard points but they are Japan's for the asking.

Fuji-Class Light Battlecruisers

The perceived success of the Chichibu Battlecruiser leads Japan to follow the big guns approach with their final class of 'cruisers.' The Japanese follow the example of the Panzerschiff and create a cruiser-killing class of ships. The Fuji-Class mount six 12" guns, capable secondary, and long lances in an effort to fight the massive American Two-Ocean Naval Build-Up.


The Rise of Admiral Yamamoto

As the Treaty Period ends, history takes another turn as Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku makes a greater contribution to the development of the Kaigun from 1936-1941. Yamamoto exerts a much greater influence first on the Japan Naval Aircraft Industry, then as Deputy Navy Minister, and finally as Navy Minister itself. Yamamoto chooses, at great risk to his life, to forego command of the Combined Fleet and dedicate himself to preparing Japan for the war he didn't want. He adds two new slipways (Shanghai and Port Arthur) for Fleet construction to facilitate a different, final pre-war expansion of the Kaigun. New and expanded Naval Yards, Heavy Industry, and Armaments are added at tremendous cost for the Japanese economy as the Admiral attempts to prepare Japan for a possibly long war. In so choosing to do this Yamamoto then changes the 4th Circle Building Plan stopping the 3rd and 4th Yamato-Class Battleships, adding two improved Shokaku-Class CVs, a pair of Kawachi-Class fast Battlecruisers, an accelerated Light Cruiser deployment, and additional destroyers. Quick, reasonably cheap carrier conversions are moved forward seeing all of the pre-war CVs/CVLs deploy by December 7th or at slightly earlier dates in 1942. The highly unrealistic 5th Circle Plan is added in late-1941 and brings back the 3rd and 4th Yamato-Class BB for the building que. Despite Yamamoto's arguments this allocation of resources goes ahead with completion dates set in 1943-1944. Though only a few of these new ships are ready on December 7th, these additions make the Kaigun a force to be reckoned with well into 1944.

The Japan Naval Air Arm deploys its magnificent A6M2 with research complete for its successors of the M3 and M5. These airframes are nearly ready in December 1941 and the Japanese wisely look at advanced prototypes elsewhere and decide to explore several second-generation fighter concepts. The Zero Team moves on to the Jack and Sam, while private contractors work on the George. Yamamoto fosters a sense of competition between the two teams to see who will win out as having a worthy successor to the A6M2 line. Additional streamlining and encouragement brings forward second-generation aircraft of other fields--Dive-Bombing, Torpedo-Bombing, and the creation of a small heavy bomber line.

On the ground Yamamoto reorganizes the SNLF units into a Brigade-Sized offensive force and—knowing it will be a war of attrition—converts many Naval Guard into enhanced units with Coastal Defense artillery (using guns taken from refitted warships) for a stronger defensive unit. Additional small units are added to the IJN’s Troops and support units better reflecting Yamamoto's foresight into base building, defense, and expansion needs. While all these units are small and not in great number they promise to help the Japanese war effort.

The foresight of the Admiral pays off during late-1942 and 1943 as new ships, aircraft, and ground units enter into the Japanese Order-of-Battle, however, the cost is steep. Though expanded and using modern aircraft many Japanese Naval Air units start with their experience lowered to reflect the dilution of the experienced pilots into new units that start in Japan or arrive during 1942-1943.

Supply and fuel reserves start at a much reduced state. The Japanese MUST take the DEI as fast as possible!

Once war begins BTSL postulates Yamamoto’s influence upon the wartime Kaigun. Four more improved Shokaku-Class CVs are ordered, and the conversion of several CLs into CVLs is added. First class destroyers continue to be accelerated and emphasis is shifted to the AA Akizuki-Class at the expense of the more balanced Yugumo’s. Manpower is at a premium within the Fleet so Submarines, Escorts, and ASW forces all see a major retooling reflecting the Japanese quality over quantity belief. Yamamoto chooses the immediately useful projects, large APs converting to CVEs, better destroyers, fast transports and coastal defense forces.

Allied Response

It should be noted that not all the changes are for the Japanese. Between the Storms brings major additions and more choice for the Allied Player. The Allies see continued major changes in their starting locations, new air units, the addition of Training Squadrons on mainland USA to allow for an American pilot training program, enhanced aircraft production numbers, additional Allied FP groups, several ground units, additional New Zealand and Australian ships, a French Squadron at Tahiti, the CL Eendract for the DEI, a stronger Force Z, a CLAA conversion for the Omaha-CL, an additional pair of CVLs, and optional conversion of the Kittyhawk Class AKV and Tangier Class AV into CVEs. The added warships reflect a ‘stopgap’ counter to the increased Japanese strength found at war’s start.

Additionally, the Hepburn Board's recommendation to augmenting and expanding many Pacific Bases is heeded and work is sped up at Wake, Midway, the Aleutians, and in the South Pacific. While work has just begun in many ways, these advances pose a tougher problem for Japan if she moves east or southeast.

As war clouds gather on the horizon, the United States makes several important decisions (1) to slightly reinforce the Asiatic Fleet with an additional CA and 4 modern DDs, (2) Admiral Hart also decides to follow his inner thoughts and begin development of Cebu as an alternate anchorage, and (3) the Scouting Force, commanded by Vc-Adm Wilson, is sent south to protect the ships helping to develop Pago Pago into a forward operating base. This powerful Task Force serves to aid the convoy going to the Philippines (The Pensacola TF) and the empty TF returning from the Philippines (The Chester TF).

As war clouds gather, the Royal Navy moves a pair of battleships from Home Fleet to Ceylon. These ships, Valiant and Queen Elizabeth are further reinforced by Force Z. In a major development Winston Churchill decides, at the last minute, to add HMS Renown to Force Z to better demonstrate British 'resolve' reflecting the seriousness of Japan's overt aggression. Repairs on HMS Indomitable are rushed and this valuable carrier and her escorts are just days away from assisting Force Z by providing invaluable air cover. A Gurkha Brigade is rushed into Singapore along with supplies and two dozen crated Hurricane Fighters. Is it too little, too late?

How well can YOU do to use these new tools OR how well can you stop the Japanese Navy in its tracks as the Allies?

Scenario Notes

In addition to its own special modifications, Between the Storms has been made fully compatible with DaBabes and thus has more ship classes than stock, and many more of the smaller vessels comprising these classes for both sides: yard oilers, coastal minesweepers, auxiliary subchasers, patrol boats, minefield tenders, and many others designed to give a more robust and realistic feel to the development, population, capabilities, and logistical support of bases and rear and operational areas. Database elements have been modified to provide more realistic results for AAA (flak) combat, ASW combat, and certain minor, but nevertheless fun, aspects of naval combat, like land bombardment and coastal defense fire and new modifications to ATA combat. The modifications include lining-up and unifying data elements within certain fields, so that things interface more smoothly, as well as substantial changes to the data elements themselves.



Garrison requirements have been raised in China as well as India to, hopefully, better reflect the political environment of the regions.



If using the special road movement pwhexe.dat file this serves to slow movement in the CBI Theatre.



_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 4
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/25/2018 4:01:35 PM   
witpqs


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Good luck John!

I'll be following the other side without jumping in here so I can comment. I figure any advice I give will improve your chances, so breath a sigh of relief!

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RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/25/2018 4:08:39 PM   
DanSez


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Yes, good luck. Looking forward to a long entertaining battle.

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RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/25/2018 4:48:09 PM   
Kitakami


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Well, I will be John's victim... err... opponent for this game. I am sure it will be a great learning experience for me, and I do hope I can pull a few rabbits from the proverbial hat to keep everyone entertained.

And... as my equivalents in the distant past used to say... morituri te salutamus!

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Tenno Heika Banzai!

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Post #: 7
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/25/2018 9:46:55 PM   
John 3rd


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This THREAD IS CLOSED to the Allies and ALL THEIR EVIL SPIES!


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Post #: 8
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/25/2018 9:55:48 PM   
John 3rd


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I already have my plan for the major thrust of this conflict.

Anyone wanna place a bet and guess? Michael--You are not allowed to bet since you know.


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Post #: 9
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/26/2018 1:24:46 AM   
John 3rd


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Here we go:





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 10
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/26/2018 1:26:48 AM   
John 3rd


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Throughout the various games I have played the following locations have been taken:

1. Austalia
2. New Zealand
3. Alaska
4. Hawaii

Always like challenge so this time we are going west for some Chilled Monkey Brains.

Target: INDIA

Never done it so it is time to try...


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Post #: 11
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/26/2018 1:37:49 PM   
John 3rd


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Here is the prediction for the end of February/early-March:





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 12
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 1:54:03 AM   
Bif1961


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Good luck always enjoy an alternate start type of what if different things had been done treaty violations and all.

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Post #: 13
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 2:21:14 AM   
John 3rd


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I will do a thorough discussion of the differences within starting forces and detailed planning of how we intend to get there.

One thing I'd like to return to is detailed discussions on strategy, long-term planning, and the economy. In many ways I hope--since we will run a slower paced game--to really grapple with some details and make it a learning AAR for any person foolish enough to desire playing DAI NIPPON.

Think we have House Rules pretty much hammered out.


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RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 8:33:23 AM   
traskott


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Suscribed!!! Banzai!!!


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RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 9:37:42 AM   
pws1225

 

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Good luck John.

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Post #: 16
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 1:06:05 PM   
John 3rd


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We have settled upon our House Rules. Take a look:

House Rules
1. If you feel somethings gamey/amiss or just peeved with anything for any reason, let’s talk about as soon as it surfaces. This includes the possibility of modifying house rules.

2. Fighters can sweep at best and second-best maneuver altitude bands only.

3. Amphibious assaults can only happen at dot and regular bases. This includes submarine-borne troops.

4. Both players must pay PP to move restricted units out of the country they are in. Exceptions: Manchukuo <-> Korea and India <-> Akyab. Thai units may move up to two hexes across their national border without paying PP but must pay if they want to go farther.

5. No transfer of American units from the Philippines directly to the Chinese mainland. Air units CAN be transferred to India, for example. Then, if there is ground support for them in China, they can rebase there.

6. All Allied air forces based in China must be supported by base force units of the same nationality. In other words, if you want to base American B-17s in China, there must be an American base force and/or engineer unit at the airfield with enough AV support to handle the planes.

7. No 4E naval bombing below 7,000 feet, except for USN 4E air units.

8. B-29s cannot be used for naval attacks.

9. No new TFs can be formed on turn one. Any existing TFs can be altered.

10. Port Attacks can only be carried out by Japanese Carrier Aircraft on Turn One.

11. There are some planes that were too large for CVEs, both Allied and IJN. For Japan this HR includes any form of George, Sam, and Grace. For the Allies this means that only F4F and FM fighters can operate from USN CVEs (and their Martlet and Wildcat equivalents from RN CVEs). Both IJN and Allied CVEs can FERRY larger fighters, but they can’t OPERATE from them.

12. If at least one unit begins the game in a base containing some form of HI, LI, Oil, Resources, etc.. (but not manpower only) the hex cannot be vacated. This prevents the total destruction of installations on an auto base flip.




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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
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(in reply to pws1225)
Post #: 17
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 1:06:50 PM   
John 3rd


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Many of these rules are direct from my opponent. WE had good and easy discussion regarding them.


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Post #: 18
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 1:53:47 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

We have settled upon our House Rules. Take a look:

House Rules
1. If you feel somethings gamey/amiss or just peeved with anything for any reason, let’s talk about as soon as it surfaces. This includes the possibility of modifying house rules.

2. Fighters can sweep at best and second-best maneuver altitude bands only.

3. Amphibious assaults can only happen at dot and regular bases. This includes submarine-borne troops.

4. Both players must pay PP to move restricted units out of the country they are in. Exceptions: Manchukuo <-> Korea and India <-> Akyab. Thai units may move up to two hexes across their national border without paying PP but must pay if they want to go farther.

5. No transfer of American units from the Philippines directly to the Chinese mainland. Air units CAN be transferred to India, for example. Then, if there is ground support for them in China, they can rebase there.

6. All Allied air forces based in China must be supported by base force units of the same nationality. In other words, if you want to base American B-17s in China, there must be an American base force and/or engineer unit at the airfield with enough AV support to handle the planes.

7. No 4E naval bombing below 7,000 feet, except for USN 4E air units.

8. B-29s cannot be used for naval attacks.

9. No new TFs can be formed on turn one. Any existing TFs can be altered.

10. Port Attacks can only be carried out by Japanese Carrier Aircraft on Turn One.

11. There are some planes that were too large for CVEs, both Allied and IJN. For Japan this HR includes any form of George, Sam, and Grace. For the Allies this means that only F4F and FM fighters can operate from USN CVEs (and their Martlet and Wildcat equivalents from RN CVEs). Both IJN and Allied CVEs can FERRY larger fighters, but they can’t OPERATE from them.

12. If at least one unit begins the game in a base containing some form of HI, LI, Oil, Resources, etc.. (but not manpower only) the hex cannot be vacated. This prevents the total destruction of installations on an auto base flip.





I am surprised that the Judy is not limited. Did it require a fairly long flight deck?

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(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 19
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 1:58:12 PM   
John 3rd


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Judy is an interesting question. Had not thought about it at all. I usually use TB and F on my CVEs but will keep that in mind.


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(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 20
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 2:00:45 PM   
John 3rd


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HR are sent so that is done.

Have sent the most recent BTS Folder to Jorge for install. Good.

Just sent a screenshot of my Start Page to make sure we have the same install running.

Michael and I will install Tracker this weekend. I ran all of Dan's game without it and will not do that this game.

If we are OK, I shall begin Turn ONE work this weekend.


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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

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(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 21
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 2:07:20 PM   
John 3rd


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For me, Turn ONE is more about getting things moving rather then attacking and invading everywhere. One factor I love in the Opening two months is running the existing fights, having the next wave of invasions/attacks in-bound, with the wave after loading, and planning for the landing AFTER THAT planned attack. Things can be so dynamic during this time. Really keeps one on their toes.

Since I plan to be in Ceylon and India by March 1, 1942 all moves are geared towards that time.

Regional Objectives
1. NORPAC--Everything west of Kodiak.
2. CENPAC--Midway and Wake.
3. SEPAC--Tabiteau, Baker, Canton
4. SOPAC--Luganville and New Caledonia
5. Australia--The NW Coast of Kangarooland
6. Burma--Will slowly move into it and HOPE to trap units there when we hit India.
7. India--All India from Viza and Cocanada EAST.

This is not ambitious at all---RIGHT??!!

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(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 22
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 2:11:56 PM   
ny59giants


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I KNOW you hate land combat and China, but what are your plans here?? You cannot leave then alone like you did vs Dan.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 23
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 2:19:16 PM   
John 3rd


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See---without thinking about CHINA---I didn't think about China.

We shall attack. Then ATTACK. THEN ATTACK! I shall not allow China to become a weapon I have to look over my shoulder at from 1943 on.

Plan to truly train my pilots over there by keeping units active there. Won't buy out as many ground units either...


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Post #: 24
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 2:20:54 PM   
John 3rd


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That sort of observation shall bring about a 'lessons learned from Dan's game' section of this AAR.

1. Don't Avoid China.

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RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 2:25:42 PM   
Lowpe


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China?

I know it goes against conventional wisdom, but Japan saved tons of supplies by not aggressively pursuing China. He made it to mid 45...

I am not sure that he did bad there. Very hard to quantify...

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Post #: 26
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/27/2018 11:47:18 PM   
Bif1961


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Of the HRs I would modify 10 as the Americans planned to Bomb Formosa but the weather was bad so they didn't. So it wasn't a matter of they wouldn't do it but the weather prevented it. I would allow the forces in PI to conduct port attacks.

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RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/28/2018 12:12:56 AM   
John 3rd


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I agree Lowpe. My intention is to launch an assault into China from the South with the intention of severing it from India. We'll take the industrial heartland as well and then see what we're at.

Jorge is perusing the the game files and found Queen Elizabeth STARTING the war in mid-1943 mode. Ooops. Fixed that!

Will work Turn One tomorrow night.


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RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/28/2018 3:34:44 AM   
crsutton


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John,

I was not sure but did a simple google search. There are tons of photos of Hellcats operating off of CVEs as well as Corsairs. Landing and take off. If I were the Allied player, I think I would object to a HR limiting them to just FM Wildcats. However, there might be a date when they are allowed. I don't know if all CVEs had catapults but those that did seemed to have had no problems with these aircraft. Also a photo or two of Helldivers on CVEs but that does not look like a common practice.

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Post #: 29
RE: Typhoon of Steel: John 3rd vs. Kitakami - 4/28/2018 3:44:24 AM   
John 3rd


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Kitakami came up with the thoughts. I am pretty sure that F6F flew off CVEs as well. Put that over on his thread. It doesn't impact 1941 so we can straighten this out as we move forward.


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