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Using Sonobuoy for surface search?

 
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Using Sonobuoy for surface search? - 5/18/2018 7:54:57 PM   
pgatcomb

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 8/10/2015
Status: offline 		I was doing a scenario involving very serious fog and I was hoping to use surface ships to find other surface ships without using radar. It occurred to me in the game dangerous waters that you could use a sonobuoy (and ship passive sonar for that matter) to track surface ships fairly effectively.

Is that realistic or something left out of CMANO? It was just an odd thought.
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RE: Using Sonobuoy for surface search? - 5/18/2018 8:23:01 PM   
SunlitZelkova

 

Posts: 209
Joined: 3/7/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pgatcomb

I was doing a scenario involving very serious fog and I was hoping to use surface ships to find other surface ships without using radar. It occurred to me in the game dangerous waters that you could use a sonobuoy (and ship passive sonar for that matter) to track surface ships fairly effectively.

Is that realistic or something left out of CMANO? It was just an odd thought.


Don't sonobuoys have a really short detection range?

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(in reply to pgatcomb)
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RE: Using Sonobuoy for surface search? - 5/19/2018 12:08:59 AM   
Eggstor

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 1/24/2016
Status: offline 		Most sonobuoys have a short range, but some of the new ones (the VLAD comes to mind) are capable of convergence-zone detections.

I have no idea whether it's realistic.

(in reply to SunlitZelkova)
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RE: Using Sonobuoy for surface search? - 5/19/2018 11:33:24 AM   
taffthomas

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 12/21/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		Nuclear boats use to run covertly on the surface using just passive sonar
Problem is you only get a bearing no range In thick fog a bit dodgy

(in reply to Eggstor)
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RE: Using Sonobuoy for surface search? - 5/19/2018 2:37:14 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline 		Of course surface ships can have their own sophisticated sonar sets. Still not sure why subs can detect surface contacts with their sonars but surface ships do not. It would seem a CZ-capable hull or towed sonar on a ship would be able to detect other ships OTH.

(in reply to taffthomas)
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RE: Using Sonobuoy for surface search? - 5/24/2018 12:05:49 AM   
pgatcomb

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 8/10/2015
Status: offline 		Is this more bug or a suggestion territory?

(in reply to Primarchx)
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RE: Using Sonobuoy for surface search? - 5/24/2018 10:34:20 PM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline 		Seems more like suggestion territory to me (i.e. it's not causing problems but might be something nice to have down the line). I've added it to our list of things to look at.

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RE: Using Sonobuoy for surface search? - 5/25/2018 10:06:11 AM   
rmunie0613

 

Posts: 202
Joined: 1/2/2018
Status: offline 		In the real world of course as mentioned you do not get a range using passive sensors, whether Sonar, sonobuoy, or ESM.. you only get a direction, which will not help a lot in the fog. Also is the range issue with passive sonar-short range
Also of course the convergence zone detection does not detect "long range" per se, but only means it can pick up contacts inside of "long range belts"...between those "belts", which are of fairly narrow "thickness"...you cannot detect still.

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
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RE: Using Sonobuoy for surface search? - 5/25/2018 1:27:23 PM   
CV60


Posts: 992
Joined: 10/1/2012
Status: offline 		While theoretically possible to detect a surface contact with an expendable sonobuoy, it is tactically of marginal value. The transmission range of an expendable buoy to the receiving aircraft is generally less than the radar range of the aircraft. In other words, the onboard radar sensor gives better contact information at longer range than the expendable buoy. As the aircraft is also likely detected by the surface target's radar, there is effectively no stealth advantage offered by the buoy, as the target knows it has likely been detected by the aircraft.

(in reply to rmunie0613)
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RE: Using Sonobuoy for surface search? - 5/26/2018 3:08:02 AM   
NimrodX


Posts: 82
Joined: 5/12/2018
Status: offline 		Is this true even when bad weather is limiting radar range? I think the original question was about doing this in bad weather with poor radar performance.

I remember from my amateur radio studies that the higher the frequency you're dealing with, the more energy is absorbed by moisture in the atmosphere. So microwaves are absorbed easily (which is why the satellite TV goes out when a heavy storm cloud gets up in its LoS to the satellite, and why microwave ovens are able to heat things up while a LF through VHF RF oven would be really useless without a massive power source). But I don't know precisely how much of what sort of weather should attenuate radar how much at different bands.

(in reply to CV60)
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RE: Using Sonobuoy for surface search? - 5/26/2018 3:49:05 PM   
rmunie0613

 

Posts: 202
Joined: 1/2/2018
Status: offline 		The OP seems to have been hoping to use passive sensors (sonobuoys) to avoid using radar and having that detected by ESM.
The radar range in poor weather is not reduced per se, but the poor weather (if precip- also waves..) do clutter the screen for lack of a better example, giving a great many other returns, depending on the type of radar. The sonar range will still be far, far shorter however, and the same poor weather than would affect radar has an even greater effect on sonobuoys or sonar as the sea becomes more and more "animated".

< Message edited by rmunie0613 -- 5/26/2018 3:51:10 PM >

(in reply to NimrodX)
Post #: 11
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