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dealing with allied bombing - 7/5/2018 12:52:24 AM   
dougmichel


Posts: 58
Joined: 4/5/2005
Status: offline 		How do I quell the masses of allied heavy bombing in the form of B17s and B24s. I have around 100 land based fighters at one base but they do little to even damage these beasts. What is the best strategy?
Post #: 1
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/5/2018 1:13:22 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		So long as there are no escorts, Nicks do a better job than others. Even so, you are bound to suffer. Sorry about that.

(in reply to dougmichel)
Post #: 2
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/5/2018 2:28:48 AM   
DanSez


Posts: 1023
Joined: 2/5/2012
Status: offline 		Don't depend on Oscars (weak guns).
Oscars are ablative long range escorts or low altitude CAP vs sweepers.
Against 4Es, they get your pilots killed more often than they kill the beast.


Try to concentrate fighters with cannons where the 4Es are raiding
also:
Base Forces and AA with Radar and searchlights if they bomb at night.
Even if they fly above the AA, the radar and searchlights will help with interception time (getting more of your fighters up and at the right altitude).

Japan has few options other than raw numbers but you weaken that with a poor mix of fighter aircraft.

Even so:
If the Allies have large bases and concentrate their bombers on single targets, there isn't much you can do.
But against probing attacts (in a current PBEM game), like limited number of 4Es flying out of Noumea trying to hit Lunga, a mix of A6M3s and A6M2-Ns held off the beasties for a few months killing a fair number,
but at Lae, with enlarged bases in Northeast Aussie, the Allies shut down the base in a week vs a similar mix of defenders.



(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 3
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/5/2018 12:36:16 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		Attrition is your best bet. Take as granted that a massed 4E raid will go through and hurt you no matter what, and plan accordingly.

Have big AA guns on the base (88mm+), fighters with 20mm+ cannons, try to bomb their base during the day, or at night if their CAP is good. Measure 4E losses not in the number of aiframes but in time spent for those frames to arrive (you have this info available from the scenario). Allies cannot maintain constant 4E bombing all over the place anyway, and the more you attrite the airframes, the longer are the intervals between the raids


(in reply to DanSez)
Post #: 4
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/5/2018 2:43:23 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Post a combat report...then you might get some specific advice.

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 5
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/5/2018 4:20:10 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

dealing with allied bombing


Duck and cover.

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Post #: 6
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/5/2018 4:50:27 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dougmichel

How do I quell the masses of allied heavy bombing in the form of B17s and B24s. I have around 100 land based fighters at one base but they do little to even damage these beasts. What is the best strategy?


Attack their home bases. That is what my opponent does.

(in reply to dougmichel)
Post #: 7
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/6/2018 12:13:39 PM   
dougmichel


Posts: 58
Joined: 4/5/2005
Status: offline 		Sounds good thanks for the info all. The situation is allies launching bombers from Noumea and from Fiji. I am taking Suva in a few turns so those bombers will be unable to launch from there. I am getting some AA assets moving in as well as some planes. I have a bunch of zeroes stationed at Rabul and Port Moresby so i can redirect them to Luganville.

< Message edited by dougmichel -- 7/6/2018 12:18:34 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/7/2018 10:05:19 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		I'm in late 1943 in my PBEM as Japan and the best way I have found to deal with Allied bombing is to quickly hit the Esc button as soon as the replay shows an Allied bombing attack and once more when the combat report shows up - less painful than watching the results.

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Post #: 9
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/8/2018 7:19:04 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dougmichel

How do I quell the masses of allied heavy bombing in the form of B17s and B24s. I have around 100 land based fighters at one base but they do little to even damage these beasts. What is the best strategy?


If it is a PBEM game, you can create house-rules for 2Es and 4Es
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4343121&mpage=1&key=

(in reply to dougmichel)
Post #: 10
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/8/2018 12:48:47 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


quote:

ORIGINAL: dougmichel

How do I quell the masses of allied heavy bombing in the form of B17s and B24s. I have around 100 land based fighters at one base but they do little to even damage these beasts. What is the best strategy?


If it is a PBEM game, you can create house-rules for 2Es and 4Es
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4343121&mpage=1&key=




Or you can suck it up and accept that the other side has a weapon you can't counter just as you get weapons the other side can't counter like a concentrated KB and Betties that never miss with torpedoes.

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Hans


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Post #: 11
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/8/2018 7:09:34 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

Posts: 1014
Joined: 2/22/2012
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		This is the only effective way that I've found to deal with B-17s:

Night Naval bombardment of Noumea at 115,160 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
B-17F Fortress: 41 damaged
PBY-5A Catalina: 7 damaged
PBY-5A Catalina: 1 destroyed on ground
B-17E Fortress: 18 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 2 destroyed on ground
Vincent I: 1 destroyed on ground
P-39D Airacobra: 23 damaged
P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed on ground
R4D-1 Skytrain: 13 damaged
R4D-1 Skytrain: 1 destroyed on ground
DH-89 Dragon Rapide: 2 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 damaged
P-43 Lancer: 1 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 4 damaged

13 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Kongo
CA Kumano
CA Chikuma
CL Isuzu
DD Yayoi
DD Kisaragi
DD Yamagumo
DD Arashio
DD Tanikaze
DD Arashi

Allied ground losses:
58 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 7 (2 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Vehicles lost 10 (2 destroyed, 8 disabled)

Airbase hits 21
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 72

BB Haruna firing at Noumea
BB Kongo firing at Noumea
CA Kumano firing at Noumea
CA Chikuma firing at Noumea
CL Isuzu firing at Noumea
DD Yayoi firing at 54th Coastal Artillery Regiment
54th Coastal Artillery Regiment firing at DD Yayoi
DD Kisaragi firing at Noumea
DD Yamagumo firing at Noumea
DD Arashio firing at Noumea
DD Tanikaze firing at Noumea
DD Arashi firing at Noumea

Too bad I couldn't follow this up with an aerial bombing to destroy some of those damaged aircraft; maybe next time.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 12
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/8/2018 7:17:50 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I sacrificed 4 BBs including Nagato and Mutsu trying to pull that off. Difference was he had plenty of Avengers and Dauntlesses both at Noumea and Koumac and I've been having a lot of trouble getting bombardment TFs to get in and get out safely at night. I probably should have tried hitting Koumac first, then bombing the crap out of it before attempting Noumea. On a previous occasion that was somewhat successful, he just evacuated everything from Noumea because he saw them coming. At that time Koumac wasn't an issue.

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Post #: 13
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/9/2018 8:58:26 AM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

Posts: 1014
Joined: 2/22/2012
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I sacrificed 4 BBs including Nagato and Mutsu trying to pull that off. Difference was he had plenty of Avengers and Dauntlesses both at Noumea and Koumac and I've been having a lot of trouble getting bombardment TFs to get in and get out safely at night. I probably should have tried hitting Koumac first, then bombing the crap out of it before attempting Noumea. On a previous occasion that was somewhat successful, he just evacuated everything from Noumea because he saw them coming. At that time Koumac wasn't an issue.


The "he" in my case is the AI, so not as difficult as a human opponent. Also, I control Koumac and the adjacent Belep island, both loaded with Zeroes, and have 4 full divisions about to enter Noumea. I should have had Betties at Luganville and/or Efate to follow up the naval bombardment with aerial.

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 14
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/9/2018 3:00:07 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dougmichel

How do I quell the masses of allied heavy bombing in the form of B17s and B24s. I have around 100 land based fighters at one base but they do little to even damage these beasts. What is the best strategy?


Apologize for that Pearl Harbor thing and hope for the best.....

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Post #: 15
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/9/2018 4:39:48 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I sacrificed 4 BBs including Nagato and Mutsu trying to pull that off. Difference was he had plenty of Avengers and Dauntlesses both at Noumea and Koumac and I've been having a lot of trouble getting bombardment TFs to get in and get out safely at night. I probably should have tried hitting Koumac first, then bombing the crap out of it before attempting Noumea. On a previous occasion that was somewhat successful, he just evacuated everything from Noumea because he saw them coming. At that time Koumac wasn't an issue.



Actually the big issue is you became predictable. You came at me repeatedly the exact same way. Despite 3 attempts , it was only on the last one that I could assemble in place everything I needed to ambush you. An Ambush an probably the most difficult maneuver to plan and orchestrate in this game. It requires information , a feel for the enemy's plan , and assembly of the ambushing forces to be in the right place , at the right time, and in adequate quantities to do the job. The stars have to perfectly align. And they almost NEVER do. But by repeating your attack exactly the same way , and my having adequate maritime patrol aircraft coverage , I was able to pull it off. One rule for both players....NEVER be predictable. you might repeat a maneuver twice and get away with it , but multiple employments can bring disaster.

Also the IJN had a policy up till Midway. NEVER send surface forces out without adequate air cover. EVEN in an area that you think is safe. Aircraft , while very fragile , are free ranging. They can move great distances in a short time. My biggest problem in planning the anti-battleship strike , was 1) getting a Air HQ with torpedoes to Kormac, 2) training USMC torpedo bombers up to a level that they would attack you.


As an aside , the best way to deal with heavy bomber attack (in my limited experience) is to set up a "flak trap". Find a place you know your enemy will bomb , jam every AAA unit and engineering unit you can scrounge , with LOTS of supply. You may not kill a lot of planes over the base , but OP losses will sky rocket. And if he bombs the base again and again and again , and sees little accumulated damage ( due to supply and engineers) he will either give up, or go "all in". And loose even more OP losses. Not to mention tell you exactly where his bombers are.

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Post #: 16
RE: dealing with allied bombing - 7/10/2018 7:15:17 AM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		Basically - Everything that can take a shot in direction of the Heavy bomber is your friend. Even the Oscars with their 12,7mm machine guns (counted by game as 4 in terms of accuracy btw - same as say P-51A) can put heavy bomber on OPS losses or to long repair period.
Light AA guns will keep the bombers higher, heavy AA guns will disrupt their accuracy and take out few at a time while damaging others.
Any fighter in the air disrupt their accuracy, and any damaged bomber counts to your advantage. Especially if they are flying from smaller fields and at extended range!

Count heavy bombers losses in terms of total available planes vs planes lost to all causes - if the US get e.g. 150 B-17E in total and you see that losses are 140 in all causes you know what? There will be at max 1 squadron worth of planes around. Or more probably is dedicated to training
If you can concentrate losses in some special air-frames it will help you tremendously - e.g. B-17/B-24 up to B-24H or PB4Y-1 are in quite limited numbers. So are A-36/P-51A/B Apache/Mustang frames. Less so P-47D2 - but if you can take out say 250 out of 300 allies get in all, it is pretty good deal :) Not much reason to concentrate on Hurricane/P-40K/F6F/SBD/TBM pools.

Also take care of your pilots - I am in a 12/43 PBEM as a Japan and still have average ratio of air losses 1:1 (overall in the game it is about 1,8 allied:1 IJ in the air) - and I am still fielding Ki-43-IIb (IIIa equipped 2 Sentais so far), Ki-61-Ia/b/c (producing Id), Ki-43-IIa/b/c (a/b being phased out) against A-36/P-38H/P-40K/P-47D2/P-51A/Hurricane Mk.IIc over burma and A6M3/3a (actually leftovers as I am in A6M5b production with A6M5c just behind the corner) against F6F-3 Hellcats. Ki-84a equipped one Sentai, another will be ready to convert in few turns.

I know it will get worse in time, but so far my pilots and planes are able to keep the allied air offensive in "sprints" - big effort for few days (attacks and counterattacks), then R&R for both sides, then up to it again.

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