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RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown

 
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RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/17/2018 9:17:07 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Thanks Andrew

I look forward to your next report. Possibly have too much time for this one I think.

B

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Post #: 31
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/17/2018 10:36:05 PM   
AndrewJ

 

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Here's the next bit.



DAY 3 through DAY 4

The next couple of days proceed with little opposition from the enemy.

The minesweeping helicopters go on a series of recce runs where I think the third minefield might be, but they find nothing. By noon on Day 3 it becomes apparent that there are only two minefields. The first one has been completely swept, and the second one is well underway. Therefore, the command is given to declare the straits open, and the tankers begin getting underway.

My two warships in the Persian Gulf form up in the center of their tankers to provide SAM cover, and a P-3 is sent to work the area in front of them. One of my ASW groups (from the former TG Elliot) proceeds through the straits to meet them, while the other monitors the other side of the straits. The cruiser SAM group arrives to loiter in the center of the straits to provide SAM cover there, while the SSN lurks below, listening for any surprises sneaking in from the Bandar Abbas direction. F-16CGs from Al Dhafra fly CAP over the straits, while F-14s provide CAP for the tankers approaching from the Gulf of Oman. I’m not sure there’s much else I can do to secure the situation. The first fast tanker is just reaching the straits on Day 4, so the test will come soon.

Further out, the Austral Rainbow has reached Oman to offload its precious missiles, which will be sent to Al Dhafra. (Although I really needed the munitions up in Kuwait. Al Dhafra was relatively well off.) The Saratoga, still cruising in the mouth of the Gulf of Oman, has completed unrep. False sub contacts and biologicals continue to pop up here and there, but these are investigated and classified reasonably quickly.

Follow-up strikes have been launched on Shiraz, and Bushehr, targeting soft infrastructure (fuel tanks, hangars, etc.) and completely wrecking the nuclear facilities. Abu Musa was cleared of flack defences. A-6s also took the time to visit the two eastern-most airfields during the night and dump heavy bomb loads on the runways again, just to foil any attempts to repair them. (I’m sure there’s still some airplanes lurking in the hardened shelters, and I wouldn’t want a sudden pop-up surprise from a repaired runway.) I haven’t hit Omidiyeh yet, up by the tip of the Persian Gulf, but I haven’t seen any planes from there for a day now, and I’m not sure if it’s worth the stretch to attack it.

At this point it looks like it’s a matter of watching the tankers for another day, and hoping I haven’t missed any mines. (And hoping nobody’s sneaking in underwater to lay new ones.) We shall see how it goes.

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RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/18/2018 1:02:36 AM   
AndrewJ

 

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THE REST... DAY 4 and 5

As the tankers proceed through the straits, it suddenly occurs to me that I need to take care of them after they come out of the straits too! The first westbound tanker is making a beeline for Kish Island, which is still occupied by flack defence troops. A hastily organized strike bombs the defences, and then recce runs are sent up and down the coast looking for any more enemy units. They find and destroy a cluster of radars (sitting quietly without emitting), but nothing else of note.

As the clock ticks down, the tankers continue to transit. As dusk falls on the last day, and I think all is well, I suddenly get the report of Bear radars again! Have I let down my guard too much? Is this attack for real? The spread-out tankers would be very vulnerable to attack, and most of them are beyond any CAP. F-15s race in to intercept from Kuwait, but fortunately the Bears (just 3 of them, sporting fresh patches over battle damage from the first day) are still in their holding pattern, and they get shot down before they can do anything.

The scenario ends a few hours later, with all tankers having successfully transited the straits.

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Post #: 33
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/18/2018 1:10:03 AM   
AndrewJ

 

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OMG, there's an Oscar. And he's been in range of my ships almost the entire time... If any of my trailers had been spotted (by that Badger, f'rinstance) they'd have been paste.

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Post #: 34
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/18/2018 2:20:09 AM   
AndrewJ

 

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Here's some thoughts. I haven't had time to look through all the missions and events, so I'll try and send more info tomorrow.



SCENARIO PLAY OBSERVATIONS

This one has a nice live feel to it at the start, with numerous things happening along the length of the Gulf, a long area of operation to worry about, and interesting news reports coming in about other developments. It gives me interesting choices about where to spend my combat power. Try and defend the wide-spread tankers from a vague submarine threat, or concentrate on specific military units? Like many long scenarios, the end-game gets quieter once the player has had time to dominate the situation. I had no effective enemy resistance for the last two days. Giving the enemy more combat persistence in the mid and late game would definitely be advantageous, I think. (Shortening the tanker/logistics transit distances, and cutting a day off the scenario, might work too.)

The missile shortage is interesting, and I think it could be made slightly more acute. A few less AMRAAMs, forcing the player to go to Sparrows sooner, or to limit operations sooner, would preserve enemy capabilities longer into the game. (Although I’m speaking from the micromanaging play style, where I have fun flying the planes and firing manually, so someone relying primarily on missions will probably find their missile usage rate is already higher than mine.) This would also make the arrival of the freighter more important. (In my case the main fighting was over before it arrived.) I never really used the full AA power of my carrier air wing, so a slightly more acute missile shortage would probably encourage the player to bring those assets into use.

The La Combattante ships deployed along the Iranian coast are quite suspicious by their isolated nature, and invite immediate inspection and attack. Perhaps adding a few extra little fishing boats anchored there and elsewhere along the coast, with associated coastal docks and town markers, would disguise them and add some interesting confusion? If some fishing boats are at sea the player may ID them first, and then assume the warships are the same. This might help them last longer.

The SSMs around Bandar Abbas are relatively easy to find because they are all emitting. Perhaps only one or two could be radiating at first? Or maybe they only turn on later in the scenario, not in the first couple of days, before enemy forces could arrive? Alternatively, perhaps some of these mobile units arrive late, only driving in and setting up on Night 3 or 4? Perhaps the Russians have been hiding them in buildings, and they simply cannot be spotted from the air. A scattering of town markers, a warning in the briefing about the sneaky tactics, a special message about increased chatter (in Russian) near Town X shortly before deployment, and then LUA them into existence an hour later, and turn them on half an hour after that? Perhaps they arrive at night late in the scenario further down the coast near Jask, and engage tankers from there? (The same sort of late-arrival reinforcement could work with SAMs too, I guess. As could late-game LUA replenishment for the SA-5 ammo, for example, since they've only got 6 shots each.)

Late-arriving subs might be good too, particularly if they target the long stream of tankers on either side of the Straits. I know I didn't have a lot of ASW power along the N coast of either Gulf, so a sub might be able to hide there on the bottom, and then sneak south into the stream of tankers slow and low once the lead escorts have gone. By Night 5 I had a big gap between escorts up in the straits and the carrier group at the mouth of the gulf, which a sub could have exploited, provided it remained undetected up to that point.

Thinking of ways to prolong the enemy air power, is there any way to simulate the rough-field capabilities of Russian planes, if their runways have been bombed? LUA-in some bulldozers, and then (if they are not destroyed) LUA-in a short runway a day later, to represent a freshly scraped landing strip?? Maybe the Iranians can tow a plane or two up the road to a local civil airfield? Just enough for one or two lightly loaded intercept missions? Some older aircraft on very long ready times (several days) might represent obsolete aircraft being brought out of storage. A handful of fresh Mig-21s from some little airfield late in the game might make a nasty surprise once the player has relaxed, or switched planes from air-to-air to air-to-ground. I know I got careless enough at the end that a couple of old jets (ex-Iraqi Fitters?) with iron bombs could have bitten off a tanker without too much difficulty, provided it wasn't near the CAP in the straits. (Assuming they could find it, of course. Alway the trick...) Another way to put the player off balance might be to have just one or two Phoenix-armed F-14s with late ready times, so just when they think they can deal with them reasonably easily, they have something new to worry about.

(Please forgive all these musings. It’s easy to make suggestions when I don’t have to implement them!)

The minefields were good (although the Iranians had already lost 57 small craft to their own mines, with several more damaged, before I took a shot at them), and I was never fully confident I’d found all the mines in the field. Maybe there was one more just beyond the edge of where I’d searched? I wonder if late-game replenishment of the minefields by submarine (lurking as close to the bottom as quietly as possible) would be useful? If the player isn’t keeping a careful watch, a new minefield (even a very small one) could be a nasty surprise. They don't even have to be in the straits. A small field projecting off the corner W of Jask might catch tankers trying to cut the corner, or a field on either side of Abu Musa might do the trick.

I never did use the special action to announce my intentions to open the straits. I couldn’t see any particular advantage to telegraphing my moves to the enemy. Although it was said it would reassure my allies, it wasn’t clear if it would bring an immediate military benefit, or that it was really necessary in any way, so I just continued without it. (Also, section in the briefing on the special actions to be used in the scenario might be useful. I know to look for them, as an experienced player, but it might be helpful to have them explicitly spelled out for novices.)

Had you intended us to take the CVBG into the Gulf? I had the tanker support I needed to stay out at sea, so I didn’t go into those horribly restricted waters, and stayed in the mouth of the Gulf of Oman. I think most players would need explicit orders if they are intended to take the carrier in.

This is one of the first scenarios where the Quick Turnaround on the ASW helicopters has been really handy. Rather than using them in long duration patrols, I’ve been keeping them on deck, and darting out to investigate and classify distant sonar contacts, and then immediately heading back to the ship. It’s actually working quite well.


TECHNICAL ITEMS

The neutral tankers are trying to plot their own minimum distance course through the S-bend of the straits, and as a result they cut very close to the land in several places, in particular the Iranian shore at Jask, and all along the coast past Qeshm Island. A guy standing on shore could hit them with an RPG! (Well, he might actually have to wade out up to his knees. :D) This would be a very risky move for tankers that are presumably trying to avoid a hostile shore. More importantly, they also hug the tip of the peninsula near Khasab Airbase, and then cut between the little islands at the very tip. That means they will completely miss the minefields without any intervention at all, which takes away the main obstacle in the whole scenario. I think you may need to have individual courses plotted for the tankers, to keep them in the center of the sea lane.

As mentioned earlier, the speedboats (and many of the minelayers) are getting hit by their own minefield, which saved me a fair bit of work. The Straits Ctr ASUW patrol overlaps very slightly with the east edge of the 'Straights' mineing zone, but the big problem is the Straits West patrol, which almost overlaps the entire minefield. (I think you were looking at the RPs on the wrong side of the minefield when you set it up.)

The minelaying mission also has the mines set for a two hour arming delay. Mines deploy at 3 minute intervals, so the 40 mine load will take the full two hours to deploy. When the minelayer turns to go home it may pass through already active mines it just laid. One of the minelayers is in the zone already, but the others are 1 to 2 hours away at cruise, so when they enter they will be passing through active mines for some or all of their mission. (Incidentally the mission is set as inactive, but the start time is 5 days before the start of the scenario, so it activates immediately.) If you extend the arming time (1 day?) the minelayers should be able to get in and out safely. It may be worth having a mission deactivation time too, so they don't re-arm and hurry back into a live minefield.

I’m not sure how big an impact my inadvertent discovery of the bombers was (due to the wandering Saudi AWACS). However, when the Blinders formed up at their loiter station they were given away by their active radar. Could they be radar silent until they are actually advancing to engage? (The Bears were emitting too.) Also, is there any LUA way that bombers can retreat if fighters approach or get in among them?

The SSK in the Persian Gulf gave itself away by surfacing. (Mentioned in other reports.) His patrol area includes a lot of very shallow water with islands, and I doubt the AI helmsman will have much luck. His initial course is already pointed at very shallow water, so he'll be on the surface almost immediately.

The Saudi doctrine allows them to refuel from allies, which means their AWACs etc. will attempt to fly to the far end of the theatre in order to refuel from NATO tankers way down in Oman. (Already reported)

Bandar Abbas AAW West mission has its prosecution area curved behind its patrol area. Perhaps one of the reference points got moved by accident?

The La Combattantes along the Gulf of Oman coast aren't on a mission, and won't fire, even at known targets. If I set them to Engage Opportunities = Yes then they will shoot. (Unless there's some event to assign them to a mission that I haven't seen yet.)

Typo in scenario file name – “Homuz” Hoedown.

Missing verb in scenario briefing: “There are strong indications that a Costal Missile Regiment, probably the 24th from the Black Sea Fleet has moved? to the area of the Straits.

Typo in briefing: “Details of what we assess tor remain are:”

Typo in briefing: Thumrait AB: 2x E-3B AWACS, 2x KC-10, 2x kC-135, 1x EC-130H Compass Call

The game starts with an obsolete contact for the Palang, to the East of the Straits, but there’s nothing actually there.

Was the Saudi AWACS North mission supposed to have 3 RPs like that, or is one an accidental extra?

My isolated surface groups start the scenario with radar active, which makes sense. Should they also be running with sonar active, since subs are a threat?

(in reply to AndrewJ)
Post #: 35
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/18/2018 2:22:17 AM   
AndrewJ

 

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Here's the tankers cutting the corner.


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Post #: 36
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/18/2018 3:04:08 AM   
AndrewJ

 

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It looks like the WP side considers tankers neutral, and Iran only considers them unfriendly. Does this mean nobody is actually trying to sink them? In which case the only way they could be damaged is with a mine?

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Post #: 37
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/18/2018 9:25:58 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Thanks Andrew, some good suggestions. I'll get to an update on the weekend.

B

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Post #: 38
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/19/2018 1:34:13 AM   
AndrewJ

 

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Here's a few more bits and pieces after looking through the missions, events, etc.



Is the Oscar intended to only shoot at the carrier? Currently its WRA is set up so it can't engage cruisers, destroyers, replenishment ships, etc.

The Victor is manually stopped and manually set as deep as possible, so it can't actually patrol in its zone. (Possibly intentional?)

The Jaguars only have one load of cluster bombs. (Possibly intentional?)

Was there supposed to be someone coming in on the WP's Bandar Abbas Ferry mission? The mission is empty and inactive, with an activation time 5 days before the scenario starts. (Left over from a previous scenario build?)

I got the "We'll do CAP" message from the Saudis (Saudi Message 3), but no CAP happened. I think this is because none of the Saudi F-15s are assigned to the RSAF CAP mission. I didn’t see any actions to assign them to the mission.

I notice there's an action (Lua- Tfr Saudi AC) to transfer the Saudi aircraft to NATO, but it doesn't look like there's an event which makes use of it. There are also a Saudi Point Trigger 4 and Saudi Msg 4 action, which don't seem to be used either. Perhaps there is a missing event for a fourth level of escalation (intended to be called Saudi Message 4)?

The 'Hold a Press Conference' special action implies there might be a bad effect for announcing your intentions. Was there supposed to be any enemy action, other than the 50 point loss to NATO's score? (A mission activating, more reinforcements, etc.?)

The Saudi Aircraft Destroyed event has the Soviet Aircraft Destroyed trigger (already reported above).

The player will not currently get points for destroying Land Facilities of the Building_Bunker class or the Building_Underground class. (This includes things like the ammo bunkers of different types present on the airfields.) Should there be a trigger for these too, added to the Structure Destroyed event?

There's an action called Msg - Neutral Shipping Attacked, but there doesn't seem to be any event or trigger which actually uses it. (Although currently the scenario has no enemy side hostile to the neutrals, so maybe this is intentional?)

My cargo ship got to Oman, and I received the arrival message, but the subsequent ammo convoy to Al Dhafra and activation of the C-130 did not happen. It looks like this is because the 'USNS Austral Rainbow at Said ibn Navak Base' event does not include the 'Marker Teleport' action. Without that timer the rest of the ammo transport chain does not happen.

The 'Iranian MPA destroyed' trigger is not functioning. It looks like the target class needs to be selected for it to work, which is odd, because I would have expected target class "none" to mean "any". (By contrast, the 'Iranian AEW destroyed' trigger does have the target class selected, and it works.)

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 39
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/19/2018 9:08:45 AM   
Gunner98

 

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Thanks again Andrew.

The Oscar WRA is intentional but I think I'll change that.

The Jag ammo is intentional as well, but the Victor is something I'll fix.

I wanted the press conf to somehow give the WP the location of the CV so both the Oscar and the bombers could have some fun. But couldn't figure out a good way of doing that, still chewing on it.


Will clean up the events, thanks.


B

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Post #: 40
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/22/2018 9:03:19 PM   
Gunner98

 

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OK

Here is an update for this one. Lots of little changes. Should last a little longer and be a little more difficult for NATO to do an early sweep.

Thanks to all the testers.

B

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Post #: 41
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/25/2018 3:19:58 PM   
Badlandz

 

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Gunner,

I am trying this one now. A few notes:

-Pakistan and India are selectable sides.
-The Iranian side fires on the the Pakistan fishing boats that sorties from Jiwani. Intentional? Subsequent to that the fishing boat sunk message and point loss for Nato fires.
-About 45 minutes in the Badger off of India identifies the Aliseo. The Oscar fires 6 missles at her. Perhaps the WRA should limit the targets to HVU type ships (CVN,CG,AO,AE)? Would this be more in line with Soviet doctrine?
-Fishing fleets. I love the addition! Anything that complicates the players’ targeting helps. On the downside, I was able to identify everything fishing vessel and their side immediately. I suggest that the fishing fleets be a separate side allied to their countries. Also, their emcon set to passive. Throw in a couple of Iranian merchants or fishing vessels wandering the middle of the AO to give them a chance to spot the NATO ships.
-The additional SAM batteries definitely makes things tougher. I sent a SEAD raid against Bushehr and failed. Not a single battery damaged. Several reports of detonations.
-The AWACS flak trap almost worked.😋
-So far there have been no fast boats hitting mines.

Thanks again for these scenarios!

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Post #: 42
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/25/2018 9:07:45 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Thanks

Some good points there.

Cheers

B

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Post #: 43
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 7/28/2018 8:51:08 PM   
Gunner98

 

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OK

Another version. (V1.4)

Fixed up some of the points Badlandz mentioned

-Sorted out Iran firing immediately
-Sorted out the immediate identification of the fishing vessels
-Added the Rescue script crated by angster and modified by TyphoonFr
-Added some CSAR resources and Kuwaiti PBs
-A surprise or two.


Enjoy

Edit - shortly after start a ghost contact appears. PB#1089 just off of Abu Musa island on the western entrance to the Straits. It then spawns a message every second (Contact PB#1089 has been lost). There is nothing there and I don't know where it is coming from but it is annoying. Simply select the unit, hit 'P' to drop contact and its fixed. Weird.


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Gunner98 -- 7/28/2018 8:55:08 PM >


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Post #: 44
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 8/3/2018 2:08:39 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Anything else on this one guys?

B

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Post #: 45
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 8/3/2018 2:28:55 PM   
TheOriginalOverlord

 

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Sorry..life is getting in the way of my gaming...no reports from me.. :(

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Semper Fi!

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Post #: 46
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 8/3/2018 8:56:47 PM   
Badlandz

 

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Hello Gunner,

I restarted this one with V1.4. Looks good. One question:

I initiated an attack against the Northern Gulf CAP with 4 Mirage F1 and 2 A-4. ( Had to see how the Kuwaiti’s would fair 😋)

The Soviet MiG-29’s intercept mission fired and attempted to chase down my fleeing fighters. Several Migs fell to Patriot missles around Kuwait. With the Kuwaiti’s landed the remainder wandered south along the Gulf. The end result was 10 MiG-29 downed by Patriot missles within a few hours. Any way to restrict the flights from wandering that far away?

I think this one is Ready!

(in reply to TheOriginalOverlord)
Post #: 47
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 8/3/2018 9:04:28 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Yeah, there's certainly no surprise to the Iranians that the Patriots are there so I can fix that up with a no-nav zone.

Thanks

B

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Post #: 48
RE: New Scenario for Testing - IOF #5 Hormuz Hoedown - 8/5/2018 10:12:32 AM   
Gunner98

 

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OK this one is ready to go. Thanks for all your help.



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Check out our novel, Northern Fury: H-Hour!: http://northernfury.us/
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