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Income and convoys - 7/28/2018 12:28:03 AM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		In a discussion with Crispy, none of us has been quite sure if convoys provide additional income to occupied ressources, or if the income is completely represented by the convoy.

The manual also isn't as clear as desired:
quote:

note: Certain Convoy and Resource events provide the means to increase a country’s MPPs beyond the total value of resources it directly controls. For example, the UK’s available income derives not only from her home production, but also from the Convoys bringing goods to her shores. Raiding these Convoys will reduce the UK’s income and therefore her ability to wage war
Post #: 1
RE: Income and convoys - 7/28/2018 1:18:05 AM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		IIRC, and I could be wrong, I believe I've seen convoy values go downwards as territory is captured by the enemy.

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(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 2
RE: Income and convoys - 7/28/2018 7:31:05 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		3.1.6. Convoy
A percentage value establishes the amount of MPPs transferable via
Convoy, subject to possible seasonal reductions and Convoy raiding.

If we look at the below example, Egypt [Country #36] is allowed to send 80% to the UK [Country #112]. Therefore, if I understand your question, and if I understand this script, then the enemy occupying Egypt's Resources would reduce the value of the convoy.
{
#NAME= Mediterranean/Far East Convoys To Canada
#POPUP=
#IMAGE=
#SOUND= convoy.ogg
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 2
#AI= 0
#LEVEL= 0
; Set global variable condition to always trigger (dummy value)
#GV= 1[1,100]
; Set link value to always trigger (dummy value)
#LINK= 105[0]
#SENDER_ID= 36
#RECIPIENT_ID= 112
#SENDER_ID_TRIGGER= 100
#RECIPIENT_ID_TRIGGER= 100
#PERCENTAGE= 80
#MAX_PERCENTAGE= 80
#SPRING_REDUCTION= 100
#SUMMER_REDUCTION= 100
#FALL_REDUCTION= 100
#WINTER_REDUCTION= 100
#SOURCE_PORT= 210,127
#DESTINATION_PORT= 30,96
#WAYPOINT= 219,137
#WAYPOINT= 87,137
}

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 3
RE: Income and convoys - 7/29/2018 8:19:25 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline 		Hi

If a convoy provides income to another country, that convoy is the only source of income from the convoy owning country to the other.

Thus if resources belonging to that country are lost then convoy income will fall, and vice versa.

Bill

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(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 4
RE: Income and convoys - 8/9/2018 11:38:10 AM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		So what's the point in invading those countries, if you already get the convoy? How does the calculation work, if both swedish mines after occupation are worth 30 MPPs each alone at a lvl of 6 as shown in the map, but the convoy's got a value of only 25 (75%) during autumn?

Next question: it`s nearly impossible to protect the norwegian convoy before the amendment of the route (and even then requires some effort, which is probably less efficient than used elsewhere compared to the benefit), don't you agree that it's wiser to skip the invasion completely for an income hardly ever reaching your mainland, while historically Germany hadn't any issue to transport the iron ore?

(in reply to BillRunacre)
Post #: 5
RE: Income and convoys - 8/9/2018 1:04:48 PM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2055
Joined: 11/30/2013
Status: offline 		There are other clear benefits to invading Norway, such as access to the ports and possibly increasing the convoy later in the war by rail connection (post Leningrad). Also it is not impossible for the British to invade Norway (as they historically planned to) and I demonstrated recently on the forum so it will also protect the convoy's from providing the British with incomes instead of Germany.

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(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 6
RE: Income and convoys - 8/9/2018 3:07:49 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		I don't agree, since Germany already has got the convoy, therefore the invasion costs (180 MPPs) and costs for protecting the convoy are additional costs, mostly without any benefit. The Brits could invade, but the calculation is in any case only beneficial, if Germany would benefit at all from the convoy and sadly (and unhistorically) doesn't.

The access to the ports would only be advantageous, if the Luftwaffe would be able to protect them. Of course someone could place some aircraft, but their only use is the protection of the fleet, which in any case would better be placed elsewhere. Even med. bombers aren't able to reach Scotland.

(in reply to crispy131313)
Post #: 7
RE: Income and convoys - 8/9/2018 3:29:24 PM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2055
Joined: 11/30/2013
Status: offline 		The northern Norwegian mines are transferred to Sweden's convoy line after invasion though IIRC. So the incomes are shifted to a safer route which is only possible post invasion.



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Post #: 8
RE: Income and convoys - 8/9/2018 6:54:56 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Makes no difference anyway, if I'm not getting 40 or 28 MPPs. 2 diplo hits and the swedish convoy is also gone, for 100 MPPs.

The questions are asked to Bill and Hubert, but since you are here anyway, do you have a clue about the calculation regarding the production of occupied/allied countries?

I´m trying to get your mod installed btw, but I`m waiting for the latest patch you mentioned.

(in reply to crispy131313)
Post #: 9
RE: Income and convoys - 8/9/2018 10:21:40 PM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2055
Joined: 11/30/2013
Status: offline 		Occupied countries are at face value I think, unless their is a convoy.

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Post #: 10
RE: Income and convoys - 8/11/2018 8:30:53 PM   
BillRunacre

 

Posts: 4945
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline 		As far as I'm aware, Germany never invaded Norway because they thought it would increase their income, but they did so to secure the income they were already receiving.

Of course, stopping Norway from trading with others could have some benefits too, but there's always the cost of having to defend the new territory, so the cost/benefit ratio was probably about even in that regard.

It's a valid question as to whether or not the Axis player really should invade Norway in 1940. It generally feels the obvious choice because of what happened in real life, but maybe not?

It could make for some interesting moves in PBEM, try it out and let me know how it goes!

Bill

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(in reply to crispy131313)
Post #: 11
RE: Income and convoys - 8/11/2018 9:17:59 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Securing income you don't get seems weird, and not invading doesn't stop the convoy either, so it's real doubtfull what to do.

Remains one question:
quote:

How does the calculation work, if both swedish mines after occupation are worth 30 MPPs each alone at a lvl of 6 as shown in the map, but the convoy's got a value of only 25 (75%) during autumn?


The reducing during autumn and winter isn`t the question, but why is it that low? Even if your calculating 100% would equal 31 MPPs, it's just a fraction of the shown production of those mines, not to speak of Stockholm and all the towns showing 2 MPPs production/turn.

< Message edited by Sugar -- 8/11/2018 9:18:55 PM >

(in reply to BillRunacre)
Post #: 12
RE: Income and convoys - 8/11/2018 11:54:27 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		If the Axis don't invade then at some point the Allied player will have to invade himself and/or stop raiding the line as Norway will eventually join the Axis.

Of course once the USA has joined, there isn't much reason not to attack Norway (unless they don't care) before they join the Axis out of hand.

_____________________________

"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 13
RE: Income and convoys - 8/12/2018 1:55:53 AM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Takes estimately 2 years to reach the necessary 90% leaning, no reason to stop raiding.

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 14
RE: Income and convoys - 10/22/2018 2:32:01 PM   
Goodmongo

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 9/22/2011
Status: offline 		So what is the consensus here? Do you invade Norway or not? Which at the end of the day nets the most MPP's? Does Denmark fit into this anywhere?

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 15
RE: Income and convoys - 10/22/2018 3:15:01 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		The only advantages are the garrisons and the corps you`ll get (allthough not really worth 180 MPPs imho), and that it takes very long to free Norway if it's Axis occupied; occupying the capital isn't enough, you'll have to crawl your way up to the north.

Denmark isn't a question, it's providing MPP production, but it`s probably more benefitting to attack immediately instead of waiting for the DE to happen; in case of an attack Kopenhagen will stay a capital, which in the predecessor meant to produce double the income (2x8 MPPs instead of 10 after the DE, but that has perhaps changed, at least it`s not shown anymore).

In general convoys seem to be a disadvantage, if you're getting only the convoy income, which is obviously less than the country would produce otherwise; makes even an attack questionable in case of Sweden.

I wish the developers would be clearer providing exact information.

(in reply to Goodmongo)
Post #: 16
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