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RE: T13 soviet

 
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RE: T13 soviet - 8/15/2018 5:50:49 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		OOB screen-nothing special here other than the replacements are already so low for the soviets in 1941 I get almost no troop gains. I do believe soviet replacements need to be increased back to where they were before a nerf a couple years back with these new super fast Germans.




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T14 soviet - 8/15/2018 5:53:30 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		North....well so much for german supply limiting their advance another rapid raid gets them over the river north of moscow.....as well for germans to be this far advanced in 1941...there simply arent enough soviet counters period...another nerf that has been added to the soviets over the years. You can plainly see in old games the Soviets have alot more units available around this turn than in this game. Even with similar losses to encirclements...if not more losses to encirclements in old matches.




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< Message edited by chaos45 -- 8/15/2018 6:20:53 PM >

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Post #: 122
RE: T14 soviet - 8/15/2018 5:54:30 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Center- moscow defense already defeated T14 effectively. Abit early from what I understand of the battle of Moscow.




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RE: T14 soviet - 8/15/2018 5:55:27 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		South---germans continue to advance there is no CV or amount units available to the soviets to stop this.




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Post #: 124
RE: T14 soviet - 8/15/2018 5:55:56 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Losses- note almost 80k losses with no pockets....abit absured when soviet replacements are only like 120k...think soviet replacements have been reduced alittle to much over all the patches since around .07 I think is when they were reduced.




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< Message edited by chaos45 -- 8/15/2018 6:17:26 PM >

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Post #: 125
RE: T14 soviet - 8/15/2018 5:57:14 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		OOB--again no real gain as im still losing something like 50-70K men per turn even without encirclement...and when encirclement hit it spikes to like 200k which is more than my replacements per week.




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Post #: 126
RE: T9 soviet - 8/15/2018 7:57:14 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

North--still attempting to delay the move around the lake. You may be asking why I didnt destroy that motorized division--- because in 1 turn it managed to build a lvl 1 fort and was showing fully supplied with 45 CV......Is no way I can amass enough CV to push 45 CV even with every division up there and I wouldnt be able to use most them due to needing 16 MP to attack.



I think you probably could have destroyed it by locking it in the city hex. There were so many troops around and i was really sending that mot as Kamikaze A tactics i love to use but is banned by house rule in another game of mine



What other house rules do you have in your games Beender?

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Post #: 127
RE: T9 soviet - 8/15/2018 8:18:27 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
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Status: offline 		All of these pictures are showing supply state or fuel state on the unit counters? I am assuming fuel state.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 8/15/2018 8:22:01 PM >

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Post #: 128
RE: T9 soviet - 8/15/2018 8:43:32 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Fuel, supply state is mostly Green some yellow from what I have seen when I bothered to check. I have mainly been fighting movement so track fuel most of the time as supplies don't seem to matter much so far.

Beenders rail lines are very far advanced...basically right up to Moscow and tracking in on the line to the north of Moscow as well. He has perfectly done his rail lines for maximum supply/fuel...alittle to quick of a re-rail process IMO to be right at the frontline this early in the game.

If I stand and fight its death, as its either rout- mass casualties and decimated units that are worthless for 2 turns or its encirclement and death.

Its why I back way and launch select counterattacks....my losses are still massive even on winning attacks usually 1-2k even on a win. As you can see from my OOB im gaining no strength even trying to conserve the soviet army.

With the increase in casualties I really feel the old soviet replacement rate needs to be re-instated as casualties for just normal combat are very high for the soviets.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 8/15/2018 8:48:54 PM >

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Post #: 129
RE: T9 - 8/15/2018 10:00:01 PM   
beender


Posts: 184
Joined: 2/23/2017
From: Beijing, China
Status: offline 		Normally I don’t use house rules but in this other game I am playing there is some, such as no amphibious landing before Oct 41, no suicidal paradrop, no use of fuel dumps in army HQ, and things like that. I suppose many of them we do not do anyway with or without house rules, except for kamikaze of German panzers


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Post #: 130
RE: T9 - 8/16/2018 4:22:00 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		final front- as I gave up as no mud in the north in middle of october was no use continuing. Random weather gives super great weather apparently so would advise against using random weather.




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RE: T9 - 8/16/2018 4:22:35 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		part 2 whole front...as you can see the germans are just unstoppable.




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Post #: 132
RE: T9 - 8/16/2018 4:25:32 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		I could have escaped with alot of units at moscow- but was frankly tired of wasting my evenings on such an imbalanced game as it is under this patch. This was after only a few moves so most of these units could have ran to the east....problem is with snow next turn and most likely getting snow in the north with random weather why keep punishing myself fighting a losing battle.

As I have posted the game is no contest if the German player has skill right now. Maybe HYLA who is prolly abit more expert player than me has a chance IDK....my skill apparently doesnt cut it lol.




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RE: T9 - 8/16/2018 4:53:41 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

I could have escaped with alot of units at moscow- but was frankly tired of wasting my evenings on such an imbalanced game as it is under this patch. This was after only a few moves so most of these units could have ran to the east....problem is with snow next turn and most likely getting snow in the north with random weather why keep punishing myself fighting a losing battle.

As I have posted the game is no contest if the German player has skill right now. Maybe HYLA who is prolly abit more expert player than me has a chance IDK....my skill apparently doesnt cut it lol.





Do you have the before picture with combat values of the hexes before Beender did his turn? This gives me an idea of your defense. Also Chaos45 did you have a ton of reserves set up? This is the factor that helps put a dent in what he did here. What was the fatigue of your units. Looks like he tore through your lines pretty efficiently so I say at least 2 HQ BU's or well rested for a couple of turns.

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RE: T9 - 8/16/2018 4:57:52 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

final front- as I gave up as no mud in the north in middle of october was no use continuing. Random weather gives super great weather apparently so would advise against using random weather.




NEVER take random weather as Soviets for future Soviet players. In all my games as Soviets I have yet to get a mud turn in a random weather game. Yes, I did take it in my game with BrianG and is my absolute last game with random weather if I dont get a mud turn 17-20. The random weather has done nothing but help the German players I have played. I am sure Morvael can add to this but that has been my experience from all of my games.

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RE: T9 - 8/16/2018 5:02:51 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
NEVER take random weather as Soviets for future Soviet players. In all my games as Soviets I have yet to get a mud turn in a random weather game.

The 8MP team game had mud on turn 16 - ruined the finale of our summer campaign ...

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Post #: 136
RE: T9 - 8/16/2018 5:15:20 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
NEVER take random weather as Soviets for future Soviet players. In all my games as Soviets I have yet to get a mud turn in a random weather game.

The 8MP team game had mud on turn 16 - ruined the finale of our summer campaign ...


Lucky you, or should I say, "Unlucky you" ;-P I have yet to have mud in any random weather game before turn 20 and that is a great many games. I feel my luck will be different in my game with BrianG

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RE: T9 - 8/16/2018 5:19:34 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45


As I have posted the game is no contest if the German player has skill right now. Maybe HYLA who is prolly abit more expert player than me has a chance IDK....my skill apparently doesnt cut it lol.



I believe he has beaten all other people too Chaos45. I am sure I would fair no better as Soviets against him. At this point in the game I would say against an experience German, even if the Soviet is experienced, requires the +1 Soviet attack just like in the original game. I would go so far to say along with the normal blizzard since the Germans take "NO" to hardly any loses on their Panzer units.

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RE: T9 - 8/16/2018 5:27:38 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I believe he has beaten all other people too Chaos45. I am sure I would fair no better as Soviets against him. At this point in the game I would say against an experience German, even if the Soviet is experienced, requires the +1 Soviet attack just like in the original game. I would go so far to say along with the normal blizzard since the Germans take "NO" to hardly any loses on their Panzer units.


Remember beender's wins so far are as Axis AND Soviet

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Post #: 139
RE: T9 - 8/16/2018 5:39:58 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		Thank you for sharing the game with us Chaos and congratulations beender!

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Post #: 140
RE: T9 - 8/16/2018 11:51:16 PM   
beender


Posts: 184
Joined: 2/23/2017
From: Beijing, China
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Thank you for sharing the game with us Chaos and congratulations beender!


Thank you. This game has been a difficult one but also good experience for me. Chaos defence is very resilient and I probably could not have broken through in the center even in the last minute, had there not been false weather forecast of mud. Still, I was nervous about the incoming mud because I don't think I have delivered enough damage to disable soviet from making the winter offensive, though in the long term Axis will probably maintain the initiative.

Again, thank you Chaos for making the AAR and everyone who read and commented. Hopefully next patch will not be too harsh on Axis, otherwise i'll switch side

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Post #: 141
RE: T9 - 8/16/2018 11:58:45 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beender





Again, thank you Chaos for making the AAR and everyone who read and commented. Hopefully next patch will not be too harsh on Axis, otherwise i'll switch side


LOL, don't tell me you only play the top dog side Beender ;-P

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RE: T9 - 8/17/2018 12:08:36 AM   
beender


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

LOL, don't tell me you only play the top dog side Beender ;-P


Oh no, not everybody does that?

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RE: T9 - 8/17/2018 12:44:31 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 514
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline 		I'm not sure if it is correct to say that this is something that has come in with recent patches. If you look back at Stef vs Stelteck at T16 (page 3 of their thread which is over a year ago) they were not in a hugely dissimilar position and the game progressed to Stelteck defending Saratov in the centre being pushed behind the Volga in the south and just about holding on Baku. They are now in 1945 and Stelteck is almost back to the 41 start line. Similarly if you look at Sillyflower v BrianG at T17 you have Leningrad and Moscow about to fall and Rostov taken. Again in 42 the Soviets were pushed back behind the Volga and in that game even lost Baku. That game ended after a catastrophic encirclement for Sillyflower which had the game continued would have probably ended in a similar fashion to the S vs S game ie. the Russians eventually reaching the startline a year behind schedule.

I would suggest that with WITE's logistics system it is impossible to balance the game so that it satisfies the three aims of giving both sides an equal chance of winning; of the Germans normally only reaching the 'historical' high water-line in 41; and of realistically modelling the rebuilding of the Red Army through 1942 and onwards.

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RE: T9 - 8/17/2018 1:38:51 AM   
beender


Posts: 184
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From: Beijing, China
Status: offline 		I think there is some inherent paradox lying around as you implied. First, the game cannot be “too” historical because historically Berlin fell. What is the point of playing if that result cannot be changed? Hence all the ahistorical developments in the game.

Second, and more importantly, Germany having super great advantages in first summer perhaps is an accurate reflection of history. After all, the central problem that Nazi Germany had was a faulted strategical plan, an underestimate of Soviet power. All other minor issues, such as lack of preparation in logistics, one month wait in the center, etc., are the results rather than the cause of this central problem. Who can guarantee if Hitler and OKH get to play, oh sorry, wage the war a second time, they won’t be able to win outright in 1941?

And we players are in exactly that position. We know how much manpower and tanks Soviet has (in very detailed numbers); we know we need to plan and organize the rail repair as first priority; we know what to expect come mud and winter. All these hindsight are huge advantages and probably cannot be affected by manipulating the game mechanics. The developers just cannot take away our memories

So in short, I think the imbalance problem exists but is not curable.


< Message edited by beender -- 8/17/2018 1:40:00 AM >

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RE: T9 - 8/17/2018 8:15:44 AM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Beender- I agree we all have the knowledge of history but the game has numbers that are different from history is why you see the results in the game you do right now.


AAR comments overall my opinions:

Player skill does matter and it does take good german play to get the results of basically soviet defeats in 1941. The issue is most of the game listed as "normal" by Sammy have all been under the newer extremely flawed patches in my opinion.

German supply or gamey supply tricks are much to good compared to historical. The Baltic re-rail route is simply to fast and to good for german supply compared to historical. The port supply route in the south is also provided much to good of supply to AGS early in the game allowing for the super fast German rush to Rostov there much, much faster than historical.

Couple this with extremely arbitrary soviet CV nerfs and reduced soviet replacements that has been introduced since around the .07 and you see the results of Soviets losing almost all the soviet union every game vs German players than understand the game.

Again as I said skill does matter but the game system has also been heavily balanced to the Axis side over the last several major patches going back about 2+ years...…

I again argue and think history would back me up that the historical 1941 was the best case scenario the Germans could hope to achieve in 1941 and really almost beyond what they had even thought possible. You can look at the German logistics office plans for 1941 they told the manuever planners after this point you will have no supplies.....and strangely thats pretty much what happened in the real war. WITE allows the german to drive far, far to deep and stay supplied in 1941. Players shouldnt be able to massively effect how effective the German supply network is, as it was historically hard capped at a maximum that effectively stopped the entire operation. Even if you have rail lines- the germans then lacked the trains to effectively supply the german army on those rail lines. This issue would plague the German army the entire war. Just like fuel reserves which arent an issue in WITE.

I am all for a good hard fought game where with stuggle and effort the germans have a shot at taking Leningrad, Moscow, and rostov but right now the Germans have an above average chance of doing all of things. As you can see his supply is so good I could do nothing but run and really not even put up an effective fight at leningrad and Rostov.....At moscow between overwhelming German CV and super great german fuel my ability to stop the germans was also minimal.

So IMO the game is currently un-balanced. I dont think it is massively so but just enough that players of equal skill will jade the game in the Germans favor.

There are several ways the balance issues can be addressed but its up to the patch team.


You can not fix german supply and allow them to still be well supplied over historical or you can reduce german supply even more as they move east- 2 different options.

For Soviets- fix all the bugs that have reduced soviet CV and if you dont reduce german supply then Soviets need units returned more quickly and need their replacements returned to pre-nerf levels----these used to all be standard for the soviets pre .07 patch. So its soviet nerfs, reduced capability compared to historical that has allowed the current game balance to be shifted to the Germans.

Yet another option is just fix the soviet bugs change nothing else but make the super lvov move less effective with slight scenario mods- move the southern stavka reserves more east so they cant be zoc locked T1 and give odessa a real fortress unit to make the axis dedicate units/MP to actually take it early in the game- more like historical.

I would also advocate that at a minimum Baltic rail re-do needs to be changed as its allow super fast german rail towards moscow. keep cost the same but reduce to 4 hexes maybe or increase cost so 2 rail units can't re-rail it so fast IDK what change the patch team would see fit.

But between the super fast 6 hexes a turn and army HQ loaded with construction BN doing targeted work in the north it is much much to fast right now.




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Post #: 146
RE: T9 - 8/17/2018 10:01:55 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
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From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		@Beender: The same hindsight problem exists for the Soviets, unless there are political constraints (not in WitE currently), they will never let the big pockets happen or make attacks with bad ratios unless the game somehow enforces that with better Axis logistics/combat value or nerfing the Soviet one.

@Chaos: Rail conversion in the Baltic rate in the Baltic seems not off, historically the population was supportive initially and the Soviets had not yet converted the european baltic rails to their gauge. The construction batalions do not speed up the conversion east, they only create rails. At least all my attempts to use them for accelertaion of conversion speed failed.

Re port jumping, do you mean using ports to work around the rail conversion limits or merely as a supply source?

I agree that the historical summer-autumn campaign was close to the max the Germans could hope for, there were deficits in their organisation and strategy but the major mistakes were made by the Soviets. But implementing this in a game makes for a boring one, the Axis will fall short in 1941 and then a long stalemate and slow grind towards Berlin. The approach chosen in WitE 1 makes the Axis stronger in 1941 and from AARs the Soviets stronger in the late war, so they can recover even if the Axis is more successful in 1941 land wise.

Re the balance, we can agree over a slight weighing towards the Axis side, but not a massive one as you describe it. I also guess Axis players have evolved over the last years.
If I had to make a change leaving all things equal, I would buff the manpower multiplier in 1941 by 3-5% and move forward the arrival of a few reinforcement rifle divisions that come in between T5 and T10+reduction of respawn time for destroyed rifle divisions by one turn.

Remember that you still need to find people willing to play the Axis side after the next patch.




< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 8/17/2018 10:05:13 AM >

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Post #: 147
RE: T9 - 8/17/2018 10:13:59 AM   
beender


Posts: 184
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
The same hindsight problem exists for the Soviets.


Indeed the same problem or advantage exists for Soviet side, but the effects are not the same. Soviet players can now avoid stupid counter-attacks or stubborn sitting in the pockets. They also know much better about German strength and weakness, and have full confidence in the future. They even have the exact information about when and which German units will be withdrawn from the Eastern Front.

But still I think these are not enough to compensate for what hindsight brought for the Axis players. Soviet units are still too shabby to be of much use. Leaders and organization are in a mess. T1 opening by Axis will disrupt everything. These are things no hindsight can remedy.

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Post #: 148
RE: T9 - 8/17/2018 11:13:09 AM   
Telemecus


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Status: offline 		Although it would not apply to players in this game it is still worth remembering that the overwhelming majority of games end up with Axis conceding after a bad 1941 to give a Soviet win. The above descriptions are for the balance for the very best players who can use every facet of the game to their advantage. For the overwhelming majority of players, the vast bulk of them who are newbies, this simply is not the case.

I know I have spoken of this elsewhere but there is a danger of altering the balance of the game for a small elite at the expense of the vast majority for whom the game is massively balanced to the Soviet side. There may well be a case of having campaign scenarios with different settings and other suggestions for the best players. But we do need to remember that for most players of the game not in that league playing Axis is much harder.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 8/17/2018 11:44:15 AM >

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Post #: 149
RE: T9 - 8/17/2018 11:43:08 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		Btw. Chaos, it is really easy to add manpower points in the editor, if your opponent agrees to this.

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Post #: 150
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