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RE: New manual - 10/24/2018 5:41:19 AM

keitherson

Posts: 36
Joined: 10/9/2017
From: nowhere special
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This manual is a fantastic asset Chris, thank you.
I wish this had been around when I tried to learn the game a year and a half ago.
It is incredibly daunting for new players to read the whole original manual, play for a while and realize half of the rules they read are wrong, then reading the US LETTER condensed rules, trying to remember what the changes were before playing many hundreds of hours more and gradually realizing that that rulebook is quite outdated too, then being left CTRL+Fing "What's New" to figure out what has changed about the topic you want to understand, hoping you guessed the right keywords.
I really hope WITE2 will find a way to avoid this issue, maybe by allowing the some of the major contributors in the community to directly assist with edits to the manuals (perhaps not exclusively PDFs?).

Here are a couple of mistakes I noticed today in the national morale section (in green). Some may be based on already incorrect and incomplete information from the changelogs, but I have double checked all of these in game just now.

Page 114: 9.1.3
>Except for Finland, national morale levels change over time.

Should read "Finland and Italy" since both countries have static NM

>Soviet Naval Infantry Brigades or units smaller than a brigade have a minimum national morale of 50.
Numerous other Brigade size receive this minimum of 50 NM not just Naval Infantry. Ski brigades, AT Artillery Brigades, RR Construction Brigades, Fortified Regions, Engineer Sapper Brigades, Airborne Brigades, Motorized and Tank Brigades (including broken down Corps brigades), NKVD Border regiments (regiments, but just to be thorough), 42 Gun brigades and Light Gun brigades. I thinks that's all of them.
I scoured June, July, Sep, Oct 41 and parts of 1942 looking for the old on map 41 PVO AA Brigade, assuming it had the +5NM but I cant build it in these months. according to older threads it began in june 1941.
In short, Rifle and Naval rifle Divisions seem to be the exception to the brigade&lower=NMmin50 rule rather than Just Naval Infantry receiving the benefit.

page 114: 9.1.4
>Soviet Motorized (from Sept 1942-August 1943) +5, Soviet Motorized Units (Sept 1943-end of war) +10
There are two exceptions to this. First is all Guards Light rocket battalions and regiments and Guards Heavy rocket regiments. They are listed as motorized in the support unit detail window but they always have just +10 morale over non motorized SUs when their Guards status should give +10 and the motorized unit NM bonus of sept 42 and 43 for +15 and +20 total. All other motorized SUs can receive up to +20NM when they are guards and it is after September 1943. This includes other units that receive guards status automatically, such as heavy tank regiments and brigades.
The other exception is SUs that would normally be non-motorized but are attached to motorized corps. Again, this uses more trucks and the support unit detail window lists the unit as motorized but no motorized NM increase occurs.

Also not mentioned, Special NKVD Units receive +5 to NM (i think they are only in non 1941 campaign scenarios). i.e. 69th NKVD rifle brigade, and there half a dozen NKVD divisions in 1942 campaign such as 1st NKVD Rifle Division and other scenarios, all with +5NM.

Edit 10/24: I also noticed that guards heavy rocket regiments do not get the motorized national morale bonus despite being motorized after the toe change from battalion to regiment.

< Message edited by keitherson -- 10/24/2018 8:26:35 AM >

(in reply to Mac Linehan)

Post #: 31

RE: New manual - 10/24/2018 6:07:10 AM

Chris21wen

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: keitherson

This manual is a fantastic asset Chris, thank you.
I wish this had been around when I tried to learn the game a year and a half ago.
It is incredibly daunting for new players to read the whole original manual, play for a while and realize half of the rules they read are wrong, then reading the US LETTER condensed rules, trying to remember what the changes were before playing many hundreds of hours more and gradually realizing that that rulebook is quite outdated too, then being left CTRL+Fing "What's New" to figure out what has changed about the topic you want to understand, hoping you guessed the right keywords.
I really hope WITE2 will find a way to avoid this issue, maybe by allowing the some of the major contributors in the community to directly assist with edits to the manuals (perhaps not exclusively PDFs?).

It was daunting for me having not played for a number of years. I've never understood why mamuals are not updated as the game goes on, WitP AE is another example and that has even more radical changes than WitE but some one is now udating it.

As far as the errors go I'll check them out.

(in reply to keitherson)

Post #: 32

RE: New manual - 10/24/2018 9:10:47 AM

56ajax

Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline

Hi Chris, Thanks for all your efforts.

Is the following documented anywhere? I think I am quoting Joel from 5 years ago.

"Ok, it does look like the Finnish no move area is effectively frozen until the Soviet turn 4. Any Soviet units that move into this area will be given 0 MPs. We should document this."

What this means that even though the Soviet 7th Independent Army and subordinates become unfrozen on T3 they are given 0 MPs as they are in a frozen area, I think.

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre a�rienne

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 33

RE: New manual - 10/24/2018 10:40:41 AM

Chris21wen

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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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Sections now read or will when I publish next.

9.1.3. Basic Levels of National Morale
The below table summarises the basic national morale level for each nation. Note that national morale may change over time and can also be modified by the difficulty level Morale Level Modifier in the game option screen. (3.3.3). With the exception of Soviet Rifle, Naval Rifle and Marine Rifle Brigades, brigade sized and smaller units have a minimum national morale of 50.

9.1.4. Modifications to National Morale
The following units receive bonuses to their National Morale. Bonuses are cumulative except for Soviet Light Rocket units, which, although considered motorized, do not get the Soviet Motorized bonus. This I think is an oversight on behalf of the programmers rather than a rule.
� All Mountain, Airborne and Air Landing units +5
� Axis Cavalry +5, Axis Allied motorized +5, German Motorized Units +10.
� Axis elite units +15, German SS +5 in 1941, +10 in 1942, +15 1943 and later.
� Soviet NKVD +5, Soviet Cavalry (from Jun 41 to Mar 42) +5, Soviet Motorized (from Sept 1942-August 1943) +5, Soviet Motorized Units (Sept 1943-end of war) +10
� Soviet Guard units +10.
HQ and airbase units do not receive the motorized bonus to national morale.

All are documented in the changes but I missed them with the exception of the SU rocket units. I'm assuming this is a programming error rather than a rule?

(in reply to keitherson)

Post #: 34

RE: New manual - 10/24/2018 11:36:27 AM

Chris21wen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Hi Chris, Thanks for all your efforts.

Is the following documented anywhere? I think I am quoting Joel from 5 years ago.

"Ok, it does look like the Finnish no move area is effectively frozen until the Soviet turn 4. Any Soviet units that move into this area will be given 0 MPs. We should document this."

What this means that even though the Soviet 7th Independent Army and subordinates become unfrozen on T3 they are given 0 MPs as they are in a frozen area, I think.

There is and it's undocumented. Any Soviet unit moving west of x=90, I assume, and north of y=10 will be frozen in place until turn 4. Basically the Finnish No Attack Line

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 10/24/2018 12:16:54 PM >

(in reply to 56ajax)

Post #: 35

RE: New manual - 10/24/2018 2:39:12 PM

AlexSF

Posts: 183
Joined: 9/2/2013
From: France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Hi Chris, Thanks for all your efforts.

Is the following documented anywhere? I think I am quoting Joel from 5 years ago.

"Ok, it does look like the Finnish no move area is effectively frozen until the Soviet turn 4. Any Soviet units that move into this area will be given 0 MPs. We should document this."

What this means that even though the Soviet 7th Independent Army and subordinates become unfrozen on T3 they are given 0 MPs as they are in a frozen area, I think.

In my game, on turn 2, I moved the Baltic Air HQ all the way North near the 7th Independant Army. I was surprised to see it frozen with 0 MP on turn 3. I guess it illustrates your point about frozen zone.
On turn 4 it got unfrozen together with the other units around it.

< Message edited by AlexSF -- 10/24/2018 2:40:04 PM >

(in reply to 56ajax)

Post #: 36

RE: New manual - 10/27/2018 12:06:29 PM

Chris21wen

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Another update v1_4. See first post for link.

(in reply to AlexSF)

Post #: 37

RE: New manual - 10/28/2018 8:35:47 AM

Chris21wen

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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Is Apache Open Office still supported?
You may want to try Libre Office which started from the same codebase but had seen very active development since.

Much more stable and does create content links when pdfs are created so I'll be using it in future. One very importent factor in my desicion to use Libre is it opens Apache document with no annoying formatting errors. It does have on small bug bear, it takes much longer to load a document and I've yet work out why.

Thanks for point me too it.

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 10/28/2018 8:37:48 AM >

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 38

RE: New manual - 10/29/2018 11:21:07 PM

Denniss

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do you use the 32 or 64 Bit version of libre office ?

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 39

RE: New manual - 10/30/2018 6:58:23 AM

Chris21wen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

do you use the 32 or 64 Bit version of libre office ?

Version: 6.1.2.1 (x64). I've since looked into it and it's something to do with memory usage and the number of pics but I can't find out how to fix it.

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 40

RE: New manual - 11/4/2018 12:23:34 PM

MaB1708

Posts: 336
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From: Freiburg(Germany)
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Thank you very very much for all your effort, outstanding!

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 41

RE: New manual - 11/4/2018 12:39:04 PM

nukkxx5058

Posts: 2932
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

Another update v1_4. See first post for link.

Clickable table of contents !!!!!

Thank you so much !

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 42

RE: New manual - 11/8/2018 6:26:44 AM

Chris21wen

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quote:

Another update v1_5. See first post for link.

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 43

RE: New manual - 11/12/2018 3:11:48 AM

GamesaurusRex

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In Section 21.1.4 the manual states that refineries produce 240 tons of fuel per factory point at a cost of 300 tons of oil.

In Section 21.1.5 the manual says it 500/500 for Russians, 300/500 for Germans and Rumanians. Shouldn't the tables reflect the 240/300 ?? Or am i misunderstanding something.
(I know the game is producing 240 fuel for 300 oil in my current patched game for the Russians.

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 44

RE: New manual - 11/12/2018 8:16:32 AM

Chris21wen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

In Section 21.1.4 the manual states that refineries produce 240 tons of fuel per factory point at a cost of 300 tons of oil.

In Section 21.1.5 the manual says it 500/500 for Russians, 300/500 for Germans and Rumanians. Shouldn't the tables reflect the 240/300 ?? Or am i misunderstanding something.
(I know the game is producing 240 fuel for 300 oil in my current patched game for the Russians.

It's all in the same section but of epearate pages.

It is misleading but correct. The table, which I think you are refering to, does not show fuel/oil prodution rates as I thought it did, it actually only show oil production rates. I've rewriten section 21.1.5 and it will appear next time I publish. The important part of it is the table name and the fuel production information.

Hope that all makes sense.

'Oil Production per Factory Point per Turn (in Tons)

Each fuel factory point will produce 240 tons of fuel per turn at the cost of 300 tons of oil. Rumanian fuel factories will have their production rate halved starting from August 1943. Fuel production rate is a separate entity and is not dependant upon oil production figures.'

Game play tip: If the oil production rate falls below that of the fuel production rate for an extended length of time then you will be in trouble, just as the Germans were in the later part of the war even with their ability to produce Synthetic Fuel.

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 11/12/2018 8:17:44 AM >

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 45

RE: New manual - 11/12/2018 9:36:23 AM

Chris21wen

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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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Here's a list of games changes that need clarification.

All these question appear in the main forum as well. Please answer here for you know or even surmise.

1.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen
Sorted

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

Another inconsistancy. When under AI control and with an ST of 10 and with a die(10)>ST Hungary will never surrender??

v1.08.00 - October 21, 2014
There is now a minimum Surrender Threshold value for Hungary (10), Finland (7) and Rumania (5), when the AI plays the Axis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

v1.08.09 - April 30, 2016
Adjusted resolution of post-combat losses, enabling ready element loss with crew surrender, ready element damage, and damaged element loss with crew surrender for units with morale greater than 54. At the same time reduced chance for damaged element loss with crew disabled or returned to pool.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

From the miriad of confusing changes to the manual I'm trying to work out the experience of new units. Morale is easy and clear but experience which is worked out from a the new unit morale is not.

Here's am example of Soviet Rifle in 1941 that is morale being 27(45). It only has 1 sqd with 12 exp.

v1.08.09 - April 30, 2016, the most recent change says this
'Reduced maximum experience of newly built units and replacements from 100% to 75% in case of non-German elite units and German regular units, and from 100% to 50% in case of non-German regular units. Minimum experience remains unchanged.'

From this there appears to be a minimum setting that I cannot find any reference to. So what is it?

The original rule for exp was morale/2 +5 a further change v1.08.00 - October 21, 2014 Changed experience formula for new ground elements. It is tied to national morale and higher for the Germans than for the other countries.

The number simple do not match up without knowing what that minimun experience is based on. So anybody know what should be happening?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

Another old patch question. From manual extract and what I've read in posts, supply plays no part in combat unless isolated.

20.5. Supply Effects
....

There are no direct combat penalties for units with low supplies or fuel levels, unless they are completely out of supply. The amount of ammo on hand impacts both the overall combat effectiveness, especially of attacking units, as well as the number of shots in combat(15.6.1).

So what does this change mean?

v1.03 Beta 3 - February 7, 2011
For combat value reductions due to ammo/fuel/supply shortages, these will be limited such that all units will be considered to have at least a minimum of 25% of each of these items.

6. Lots of ideas here but definitive answer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

v1.08.08 - February 05, 2016
Leader initiative will be increased by 1 for checks on behalf of Soviet on-map artillery units that have expended no more than 6 MP this turn. Bear in mind that MP are substracted at start of battle, so the net effect should be that the first attack of an umoved artillery unit will benefit from this bonus. Therefore the chance to pass initiative roll shown in supply details window will include this bonus only for units that have not yet expended a single MP.

An extract from a patch. What does it mean exactly?

7. A general question that I never gor an answer too but should be in the manual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

Does anyone know how factory damage is worked out during ground combat. If its captured it's clear but not if it's a failed attack.

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 11/12/2018 9:54:30 AM >

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 46

RE: New manual - 11/12/2018 3:21:56 PM

GamesaurusRex

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By the way Chris2... your efforts here are heroic and greatly appreciated and applauded.

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 47

RE: New manual - 11/12/2018 3:26:40 PM

Tejszd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

quote:

Another update v1_5. See first post for link.

Thank you for the continued updates!

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 48

RE: New manual - 11/13/2018 7:52:58 AM

Chris21wen

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I appreciate a prompt reply to this ambiguous change.

v1.08.05 - October 12, 2015
AA units attached to cities will fire with the same effectiveness against all types of air missions instead of only against bomb city missions targeting their city.

The manual says this:

For all air missions except bomb city, anti-aircraft fire from the target hex will fire at three times the normal rate. ..... AA units in town, city or urban hexes are more effective firing in defense of factories, and will fire at four times their normal rate at any bomb city air missions targeting their hex.

To me, rate of fire isn't the same as effectiveness so is it 3 or 4 times more effective?

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 49

RE: New manual - 11/13/2018 9:01:52 AM

Chris21wen

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Another. Before this change the effectiveness of both night AA fire and night bombing was 25%. This change does not supply any figures.

Likewise for reduced day & night airfield bombing. (Personnal I think whatever this was reduced to is now too low. As the Soviet you seem to hit squat.)

Anyone know?

v1.11.02 Beta - May 15, 2018
Increased AA effectiveness at night, reduced night bombing efficiency, and reduced day & night airfield bombing efficiency (except on German June 22nd, 1941 turn).

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 50

RE: New manual - 11/13/2018 3:20:41 PM

Wheat

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A real labor of love here Chris. Much appreciated!

(in reply to Mac Linehan)

Post #: 51

RE: New manual - 11/22/2018 9:47:32 AM

Chris21wen

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Getting close to end, another update v1_6. See first post for link.

Still three changes left but I need clarification.

v1.03 Beta 3 - February 7, 2011
For combat value reductions due to ammo/fuel/supply shortages, these will be limited such that all units will be considered to have at least a minimum of 25% of each of these items.

16.2.2. Anti-Aircraft Defense
During June 22nd 1941 turn Soviet AA fires with 25% efficiency. For all air missions, anti-aircraft fire from the target hex is three times the normal rate of fire. Anti-aircraft units attached to town, city or urban hexes (7.4.2) will fire at any air missions that fly into or through that hex at with double effectiveness. AA units in town, city or urban hexes are more effective firing in defense of factories, and will fire at four times their normal rate at any bomb city air missions targeting their hex.

v1.08.05 - October 12, 2015
AA units attached to cities will fire with the same effectiveness against all types of air missions instead of only against bomb city missions targeting their city.

19.1.4. Surrender of Axis Allied Forces
With the exception of Rumania (19.1.4.1), units belonging to Axis allied armies are immediately removed from the game if their country surrenders, to include any anti-aircraft support units attached to towns, cities or urban hexes. Axis allied countries check during each Axis Logistics Phase to see if they surrender.
For the purposes of determining an Axis allied country�s surrender, the Soviets must control town, city or urban hexes within that countrys� borders. To control them the Soviet player must be able to trace a supply path of no more than 30 MPs from that city to a rail (if the city is a capital city, the supply path may be up to 100 MPs). This means that a Soviet airborne combat unit dropping behind enemy lines and capturing a town that could cause the surrender of an Axis allied country will have no impact on surrender until that town is linked to the Soviet supply grid.

With the exception of Rumania, once a nation surrenders all production ceases to include manpower for that nation. All fortifications will be deleted upon conversion of hexes during nation�s surrender. They are assumed to be facing wrong direction.

German divisions stationed in the capital of any Axis Allied nation that checks for surrender increases that countries surrender threshold. This surrender Threshold Bonus is calculated as +1 for any German division stationed in the capital plus an extra 2 points if the division is an Elite SS Division, all accumulative. This means that with two elite SS Divisions in capital city (the maximum possible) there�s a 90% chance the Axis nation will not surrender. Regiments from a split German division do not give this bonus, they must be full divisions.

v1.08.00 - October 21, 2014
There is now a minimum Surrender Threshold value for Hungary (10), Finland (7) and Rumania (5), when the AI plays the Axis.

(in reply to Wheat)

Post #: 52

RE: New manual - 11/28/2018 7:53:53 AM

Chris21wen

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See first post for final version (almost)

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 53

RE: New manual - 11/28/2018 9:34:02 AM

nukkxx5058

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Truly brilliant. A great job ! Many thanks.

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 54

RE: New manual - 11/28/2018 11:11:47 AM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Is Apache Open Office still supported?
You may want to try Libre Office which started from the same codebase but had seen very active development since.

I still get updates but i'll take a look at it.

I use Apache open office - and I have found it much more stable that Libre Office. Beware there are bad downloads of Open Office out there with a lot of bloatware. It is a good clean product, but you need to download it from someone who is not adding to it.

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 55

RE: New manual - 11/28/2018 11:26:28 AM

Colbert

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Just seen this updated manual - what a god send! Definite kudos to those who made it!

(in reply to Telemecus)

Post #: 56

RE: New manual - 11/29/2018 2:07:20 PM

AlessandroD

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Many thanks!

_____________________________

(in reply to Colbert)

Post #: 57

RE: New manual - 11/29/2018 11:09:59 PM

Chris21wen

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Updated to correct these two missing changes. See first post for link.

v1.03 Beta 2 - January 21, 2011
Increased the Admin point cost for creating Soviet Rifle Divisions and Cavalry Divisions to 20 before May-1942.

v1.03 Beta 3 - February 7, 2011
Increased the amount of Admin points charged for the formation of Rifle Corps to 20 prior to 1943.

(in reply to AlessandroD)

Post #: 58

RE: New manual - 1/16/2019 5:29:51 AM

56ajax

Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline

Hi,

21.1.7.1 Factory Expansion

Manual states 'Factories will only expand if they are completely undamaged'.

This appears to be incorrect. Expansion seems to start when the damage equals or is under 30. (or some other magical parameter). I have only tested 1 tank factory.

See also 21.2 which implies that damaged factories can expand.

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre a�rienne

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 59

RE: New manual - 1/16/2019 8:06:50 AM

Chris21wen

Posts: 6249
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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Hi,

21.1.7.1 Factory Expansion

Manual states 'Factories will only expand if they are completely undamaged'.

This appears to be incorrect. Expansion seems to start when the damage equals or is under 30. (or some other magical parameter). I have only tested 1 tank factory.

See also 21.2 which implies that damaged factories can expand.