Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

So what are you going to do about it, besides be mad on the internet?

Edit - this comment was directed at OP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

So what are you going to do about it, besides be mad on the internet?

Edit - this comment was directed at OP.

This issue always pops up every couple of months and there's the usual deluge of outrage.

The countries where the salvagers/scavengers/pirates/whatever are based from couldn't care less because:

1. There's money to be made in it.
2. It's a tiny issue in the grand scheme of international politics.
3. Why would any politicans in South-East Asia decide to defend the sunken property of the imperial and colonial nations that are the cause of so many problems?

FWIW, I dislike the notion of sunken ships being a war-grave. It's not really: it's steel at the bottom of the ocean, any human remains are long dissolved now. There's an elegant practical solution to it all without the international outcry:

- mount an expedition and retrieve an artifact(s) from the ship (the ships bell is always a nice one).
- sell salvage rights with the condition that funds are dedicated to creating a memorial for the sunken ship
- have said artifact as centrepeice of the memorial

Everyone wins. There's the potential for commerical gain, there's something to remember the sunken vessal and the lost crew (as well as a tangible, phsyical memorial rather than open ocean) and the international pissing contest is stopped.

Sadly that seems to make too much sense to most people...

quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

So what are you going to do about it, besides be mad on the internet?

Edit - this comment was directed at OP.

This issue always pops up every couple of months and there's the usual deluge of outrage.

The countries where the salvagers/scavengers/pirates/whatever are based from couldn't care less because:

1. There's money to be made in it.
2. It's a tiny issue in the grand scheme of international politics.
3. Why would any politicans in South-East Asia decide to defend the sunken property of the imperial and colonial nations that are the cause of so many problems?

FWIW, I dislike the notion of sunken ships being a war-grave. It's not really: it's steel at the bottom of the ocean, any human remains are long dissolved now. There's an elegant practical solution to it all without the international outcry:

- mount an expedition and retrieve an artifact(s) from the ship (the ships bell is always a nice one).
- sell salvage rights with the condition that funds are dedicated to creating a memorial for the sunken ship
- have said artifact as centrepeice of the memorial

Everyone wins. There's the potential for commerical gain, there's something to remember the sunken vessal and the lost crew (as well as a tangible, phsyical memorial rather than open ocean) and the international pissing contest is stopped.

Sadly that seems to make too much sense to most people...

I like your proposal. It makes logical sense. But it is way too logical to ever be adopted in today's geopolitical environment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

So what are you going to do about it, besides be mad on the internet?

Edit - this comment was directed at OP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.

As previously mentioned in this thread, human remains including bones dissolve in the sea water within a few years. Salt is not the only chemical in sea water. And heaven knows if there are tiny sea critters that can dissolve the bones to process the calcium into their own shells.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.

Give the oxidation of the metals over 70+ years in a salt-water enviroment, how much of it is actually usable?

I've dove Truk and those ships after 50 years looked like they would snap if subjected to the slightest stress not to mention being lifted from the bottom floor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.

Give the oxidation of the metals over 70+ years in a salt-water enviroment, how much of it is actually usable?

I've dove Truk and those ships after 50 years looked like they would snap if subjected to the slightest stress not to mention being lifted from the bottom floor.

True, but non-ferrous metals like brass don't decay.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.

Give the oxidation of the metals over 70+ years in a salt-water enviroment, how much of it is actually usable?

I've dove Truk and those ships after 50 years looked like they would snap if subjected to the slightest stress not to mention being lifted from the bottom floor.

True, but non-ferrous metals like brass don't decay.

There are a lot of different processes at work in not so shallow water. Lots of processes either contribute or protect against the rust process.

Lack of oxygen can do both surprisingly. Aluminium for example can corrode a lot faster in oxygen deprived water because of the lack of a protective layer, which normally forms in oxygen rich environments.


Most interesting studies in this area are not accessible for free online in the scientific journals they are published in.
I did find a US Navy study, done specifically for corrosion of metals : http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/645481.pdf

results vary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LeeChard

In the controversy over artifacts from the Titanic I agree with the side that believes we should bring them up
and place them in museums where we people who can't afford to go on an expedition to the site itself can see the
remnants of history.
Besides in another century or two there won't be much left but a big pile of rust.