RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet) No MarauderPL

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RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/11/2018 7:26:03 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

Interesting AAR. Will you be covering only the air game?

The emphasis will be on the air campaign, but the ground part won't be ignored. It's easier to appreciate why certain things are going on in the air when you have an understanding of what is also happening on the ground. There are many fine AARs out there, including yours, but very few that extensively cover the air strategies.

Also, most of the recent patch changes have most significantly impacted Soviet air power, especially with the addition of many AA units that can be pulled from cities where they would otherwise die, and instead be massed in armies. Those will for the most part live to fight throughout the entire war, and have a negative effect on the Luftwaffe. How much of an effect it will have, we will find out.

I have always advocated the strong use of Soviet Air power ;-) I like this so far. When I update my two AAR's maybe do a compare and contrast.

You could always pull out the AA from the cities (don't remember the patch that was initiated in). To some it was just not worth it before the current patch of .03 since Soviet AA was total crap before then. But, I will give one good thing about the AA now. Put your airbase with Soviet recon in a City with AA (i.e. Moscow) I bet the Germans wont come back to bomb that airfield a second time. Then during your turn just move it one hex out and Recon and at the end of the turn put it back.

I see you didn't send all of your VVS to reserves. That is a good thing ;-) To me that is a big thumbs up 👍 Seen that done so many times when I used to play Germany and I just shake my head.

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Post #: 31

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/11/2018 7:32:59 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

Interesting AAR. Will you be covering only the air game?

The emphasis will be on the air campaign, but the ground part won't be ignored. It's easier to appreciate why certain things are going on in the air when you have an understanding of what is also happening on the ground. There are many fine AARs out there, including yours, but very few that extensively cover the air strategies.

Also, most of the recent patch changes have most significantly impacted Soviet air power, especially with the addition of many AA units that can be pulled from cities where they would otherwise die, and instead be massed in armies. Those will for the most part live to fight throughout the entire war, and have a negative effect on the Luftwaffe. How much of an effect it will have, we will find out.

I guess managing (or rather micromanaging) the VVS will be quite a challenge.

IMO the VVS is pretty easy to take care of once you know what you are doing. Of course that takes a few games to get under your belt but the VVS really isn't that bad. By turn 4 you should have everything set for the long haul, turn 5 at the latest ✔

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Post #: 32

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/11/2018 7:39:32 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Thank you for sharing this information M60 :) I am looking forward to your hard work which is always GREAT to read!!! ❤

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Post #: 33

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 4:15:28 AM

M60A3TTS

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Week 4

A couple more pics than last week...

At Pskov, units of Northern Front are joining in the defense. 28th Army under Ivan Konev begins to form to the east of Zhukov's 27th Army.

AA guns are split fairly evenly between the two main armies. These should help combat the Luftwaffe formations headed to this area.

The Finns also became active this week, so the AA guns from Vyborg were withdrawn as the city remains in Soviet hands this week.

In the center, Vitebsk is only held by a security regiment. Smolensk is held by Western Front for the moment.

Reserve Front has been formed with 20th, 24th, 29th and 31st Armies.

In the south, Southwestern and Southern Fronts are partially re-formed with what second echelon divisions are available. The Dnepr cannot be held for long, but the Red Army here is safe for the moment.

Aircraft distribution between the various commands continues to be spread among Northern, Northwestern and Western Air Commands in addition to Long Range Air Command.

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Post #: 34

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 4:27:10 AM

M60A3TTS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
With regards to AA guns, I know that the latest patches have increased the numbers of AA units present (as it was historically). AFAIK AA guns amount to almost 10k. How big of a difference is there numbers wise with the AA guns that the Soviets had in the older patches? How many more guns were added I mean?

If you had started a game a little over a year ago as Soviets, you had about 1,450 in support units. The regiments were 1/5th the size of the current ones. As of Week 4 of this one, Zhukov and Konev alone have close to the same number, and there are another 7,000 more beyond that.

Here is what the 8MP game that started in 2017 roughly started out with.

< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 10/12/2018 4:33:49 AM >

(in reply to xhoel)

Post #: 35

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 10:29:01 AM

xhoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
With regards to AA guns, I know that the latest patches have increased the numbers of AA units present (as it was historically). AFAIK AA guns amount to almost 10k. How big of a difference is there numbers wise with the AA guns that the Soviets had in the older patches? How many more guns were added I mean?

If you had started a game a little over a year ago as Soviets, you had about 1,450 in support units. The regiments were 1/5th the size of the current ones. As of Week 4 of this one, Zhukov and Konev alone have close to the same number, and there are another 7,000 more beyond that.

Here is what the 8MP game that started in 2017 roughly started out with.

Thanks for providing the screenshot. It is a substantial increase but one that was needed, in order to come close to the actual numbers. Glad to see morvael and Dennis fixed it (together with the effectiveness of the AA).

In terms of AA activation does the AA put in the 2 Armies (27th and 29th) activate when the Luftwaffe attacks withing a certain hex range? Or they activate when the units under the command of the Army are attacked regardless of range from HQ?

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Post #: 36

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 1:56:31 PM

M60A3TTS

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All AA support units activate when an enemy air mission is within a 5 hex radius of the owning HQ.

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RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 2:12:55 PM

Telemecus

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Are there activation for overflights, no matter how far the battle results?

There were mentions of activations for non-owning HQs (as in not in the chain of command for that unit) for battles within two hexes.

I have never been too sure about these descriptions in addition to the owning HQ one.

Can these be confirmed or refuted?

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Post #: 38

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 2:51:08 PM

M60A3TTS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Are there activation for overflights, no matter how far the battle results?

There were mentions of activations for non-owning HQs (as in not in the chain of command for that unit) for battles within two hexes.

I have never been too sure about these descriptions in addition to the owning HQ one.

Can these be confirmed or refuted?

Yes, the activation for overflights takes place if the combat unit is within 5 hexes of the parent HQ that has the AA units. If the overflight takes place on a unit greater than 5 hexes from its HQ, there is no activation.

(in reply to Telemecus)

Post #: 39

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 3:55:58 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Yes, the activation for overflights takes place if the combat unit is within 5 hexes of the parent HQ that has the AA units. If the overflight takes place on a unit greater than 5 hexes from its HQ, there is no activation.

Just to clarify - you are saying the AA can activate for a unit that is
i) overflown
ii) within five hexes of the parent HQ holding the AA
iii) does not have to be in the final battle destination for the airgroups?

So in theory if you place the units of HQs with AA correctly, you could create a "wall" of flak with them that must be crossed and battled, even if the target destination is far in the rear and has no flak?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 10/12/2018 4:17:37 PM >

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Post #: 40

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 4:43:51 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Yes, the activation for overflights takes place if the combat unit is within 5 hexes of the parent HQ that has the AA units. If the overflight takes place on a unit greater than 5 hexes from its HQ, there is no activation.

Just to clarify - you are saying the AA can activate for a unit that is
i) overflown
ii) within five hexes of the parent HQ holding the AA
iii) does not have to be in the final battle destination for the airgroups?

So in theory if you place the units of HQs with AA correctly, you could create a "wall" of flak with them that must be crossed and battled, even if the target destination is far in the rear and has no flak?

I know in Dinglirs AAR when I talked about this in our game there was a randomness to the AA activation.

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Post #: 41

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 4:56:56 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Yes, the activation for overflights takes place if the combat unit is within 5 hexes of the parent HQ that has the AA units. If the overflight takes place on a unit greater than 5 hexes from its HQ, there is no activation.

Just to clarify - you are saying the AA can activate for a unit that is
i) overflown
ii) within five hexes of the parent HQ holding the AA
iii) does not have to be in the final battle destination for the airgroups?

So in theory if you place the units of HQs with AA correctly, you could create a "wall" of flak with them that must be crossed and battled, even if the target destination is far in the rear and has no flak?

I know in Dinglirs AAR when I talked about this in our game there was a randomness to the AA activation.

beender also did some testing, which seemed to contradict what we thought we knew too. There was also a test of on map AA brigades requested by M60A3TTS in the 8MP team game.

There are many different descriptions, more than one of which may be true but some are contradictory. I was hoping to get developers to answer this question before but no response. I am guessing M60A3TTS comes closest to knowing the story right now?

Currently my flak assignment policy is scatter it around and hope some of it will work. Having a better understanding of all the mechanics would help.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 10/12/2018 5:03:48 PM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 42

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 5:23:36 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Yes, the activation for overflights takes place if the combat unit is within 5 hexes of the parent HQ that has the AA units. If the overflight takes place on a unit greater than 5 hexes from its HQ, there is no activation.

Just to clarify - you are saying the AA can activate for a unit that is
i) overflown
ii) within five hexes of the parent HQ holding the AA
iii) does not have to be in the final battle destination for the airgroups?

So in theory if you place the units of HQs with AA correctly, you could create a "wall" of flak with them that must be crossed and battled, even if the target destination is far in the rear and has no flak?

I know in Dinglirs AAR when I talked about this in our game there was a randomness to the AA activation.

beender also did some testing, which seemed to contradict what we thought we knew too. There was also a test of on map AA brigades requested by M60A3TTS in the 8MP team game.

There are many different descriptions, more than one of which may be true but some are contradictory. I was hoping to get developers to answer this question before but no response. I am guessing M60A3TTS comes closest to knowing the story right now?

Currently my flak assignment policy is scatter it around and hope some of it will work. Having a better understanding of all the mechanics would help.

Hope M60 gets to the bottom of it :-)

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Post #: 43

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 5:33:20 PM

chaos45

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Pretty sure it tracks the flight path of the airstrike and all units in command you fly over with AA you eat the AA fire.

As I'm playing a 1942 game and noticed flying over different corps areas to target other areas influences the amount of AA guns.

Example fly over hungarian units Im hit by the 80mm Hungarian AA guns in thier corps/army...dont fly over them no 80mm AA fire.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 44

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 5:59:10 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Pretty sure it tracks the flight path of the airstrike and all units in command you fly over with AA you eat the AA fire.

As I'm playing a 1942 game and noticed flying over different corps areas to target other areas influences the amount of AA guns.

Example fly over hungarian units Im hit by the 80mm Hungarian AA guns in thier corps/army...dont fly over them no 80mm AA fire.

That is how I saw it in my old games. The only thing is that it is random and not 100% when I flew over with bombers. One battle would have the AA fire. Then in the same next instance there was no AA fire even though the bombers went to the same hex. That is how I remember it when I mentioned it a long time ago.

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RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 6:09:20 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Pretty sure it tracks the flight path of the airstrike and all units in command you fly over with AA you eat the AA fire.

As I'm playing a 1942 game and noticed flying over different corps areas to target other areas influences the amount of AA guns.

Example fly over hungarian units Im hit by the 80mm Hungarian AA guns in thier corps/army...dont fly over them no 80mm AA fire.

That is how I saw it in my old games. The only thing is that it is random and not 100% when I flew over with bombers. One battle would have the AA fire. Then in the same next instance there was no AA fire even though the bombers went to the same hex. That is how I remember it when I mentioned it a long time ago.

Of course this could also be contributed to how many AA you have in the HQ to distribute to each such fly over. I am sure M60 will elaborate.

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Post #: 46

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/12/2018 6:19:08 PM

M60A3TTS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Yes, the activation for overflights takes place if the combat unit is within 5 hexes of the parent HQ that has the AA units. If the overflight takes place on a unit greater than 5 hexes from its HQ, there is no activation.

Just to clarify - you are saying the AA can activate for a unit that is
i) overflown
ii) within five hexes of the parent HQ holding the AA
iii) does not have to be in the final battle destination for the airgroups?

So in theory if you place the units of HQs with AA correctly, you could create a "wall" of flak with them that must be crossed and battled, even if the target destination is far in the rear and has no flak?

Yes, that is what I observed in my own testing.

(in reply to Telemecus)

Post #: 47

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/14/2018 5:24:28 PM

M60A3TTS

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Week 5

Ground action

In the north, the Germans begin a flanking action to the east of Pskov. Their infantry is close to the front lines now, creating new challenges.

In the center, Vitebsk is lost, and the panzers are pushing on to the northeast towards Velikie Luki. Smolensk is still under our control.

In the south, the panzers are preparing to cross the Dnepr south of Nikolaev-Zaporozhye.

There are a fair number of battles won by Soviet troops, but many losses of course.

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Post #: 48

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/14/2018 5:42:05 PM

M60A3TTS

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Turn 5 air actions

Quite a number of AA guns are whisked away this week.

At Smolensk...

Gomel...

D-Z...

Tallinn...

After which time, the garrison slipped away by sea to Leningrad.

Most AA still finding their way to the two northern armies.

Air losses a bit heavy for both sides this week.

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Post #: 49

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/14/2018 6:03:21 PM

xhoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

There are a fair number of battles won by Soviet troops, but many losses of course.

Not taking away anything from your defense but something I have noticed in my AAR too is that the Soviets are much more resilient with the current patch, which is something that was needed. Glad to see all those holding results! Some of them are quite impressive.

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Post #: 50

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/14/2018 9:36:08 PM

M60A3TTS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Not taking away anything from your defense but something I have noticed in my AAR too is that the Soviets are much more resilient with the current patch, which is something that was needed. Glad to see all those holding results! Some of them are quite impressive.

No offense taken.

Fact is, I took about the same number of losses in two failed attacks as Marauder did in a couple dozen. This sort of exchange in the early game hardly puts a dent in the Axis as a couple failed hasty attacks will often succeed the third time with 1,000+ Soviet casualties. Some of these battles are also taking place in the Lvov pocket that isn't liquidated until week 9, but that's in the future. As will be seen, my defense can only hold out for so long before his panzers tear it down.

(in reply to xhoel)

Post #: 51

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/14/2018 10:46:51 PM

xhoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Not taking away anything from your defense but something I have noticed in my AAR too is that the Soviets are much more resilient with the current patch, which is something that was needed. Glad to see all those holding results! Some of them are quite impressive.

No offense taken.

Fact is, I took about the same number of losses in two failed attacks as Marauder did in a couple dozen. This sort of exchange in the early game hardly puts a dent in the Axis as a couple failed hasty attacks will often succeed the third time with 1,000+ Soviet casualties. Some of these battles are also taking place in the Lvov pocket that isn't liquidated until week 9, but that's in the future. As will be seen, my defense can only hold out for so long before his panzers tear it down.

That is true but we both know that if you are attacking with the Soviets in the Summer of 41 its is going to be a bloodbath as the quality of your units is abysmal and the Germans are at their strongest. I don't want to hijack the thread but just wanted to say that all those Axis failed attacks do accumulate and the Axis player will feel the bite later.

Are you bombing airbases aggressively or are you using the VVS in a defensive stance?

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Post #: 52

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/15/2018 4:06:18 AM

M60A3TTS

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Week 6

In the north, the Germans continue their flanking action which is now northeast of Pskov.

In the center, the panzers push between Velikie Luki and Smolensk, isolating several divisions of the Western and Reserve Fronts.

In the south, a small Axis bridgehead is over the Dnepr at Kremenchug.

The Luftwaffe takes some losses this week. The flak among the northern armies is definitely having an impact.

Aircraft remain concentrated in the same air commands.

(in reply to xhoel)

Post #: 53

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/15/2018 4:11:37 AM

M60A3TTS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Are you bombing airbases aggressively or are you using the VVS in a defensive stance?

no & no

Airbase attacks are not my primary focus as the loss ratios aren't very favorable. Some will argue that there are plenty of aircraft available to lose, but I prefer to use them to support the army where opportunities exist.

(in reply to xhoel)

Post #: 54

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/15/2018 11:01:44 AM

chaos45

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Bombing Axis airbases if they have any fighters/AA is suicide for the red airforce. Best to try and bomb axis ground units you intend to attack or bomb anything outside good axis fighter protection.

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Post #: 55

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/15/2018 11:34:38 AM

BrianG

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quote:

with Soviet recon in a City with AA (i.e. Moscow) I bet the Germans wont come back to bomb that airfield a second time

I promise in our game to make a return trip.

aa now useful.

< Message edited by BrianG -- 10/15/2018 11:36:11 AM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 56

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/15/2018 12:50:50 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Are you bombing airbases aggressively or are you using the VVS in a defensive stance?

no & no

Airbase attacks are not my primary focus as the loss ratios aren't very favorable. Some will argue that there are plenty of aircraft available to lose, but I prefer to use them to support the army where opportunities exist.

In the current patch of .03 if German AA is defending the airbase the loss ratio will be off the chart. I concur with M60 on this one use them elsewhere.

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RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/17/2018 8:28:12 PM

M60A3TTS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
That is true but we both know that if you are attacking with the Soviets in the Summer of 41 its is going to be a bloodbath as the quality of your units is abysmal and the Germans are at their strongest. I don't want to hijack the thread but just wanted to say that all those Axis failed attacks do accumulate and the Axis player will feel the bite later.

Yes, they do accumulate, but not enough that there is much of a bite later. I used to be able to use airhead supply to extend the fight for Leningrad. Nope, the Soviets didn't have that historical capability, so it was removed. I relied on sapper regiments to get some semblance of a defense set up and later to get through tough German defenses. Nope, the Soviets didn't have all these sappers so take that away.

Meantime in all the years since this game was first introduced, Leningrad still is regularly rolled with Model and his well endowed sapper/arty armies. Now Moscow is practically in the same category where the Axis player has enough experience to know what they are doing. The Lvov pocket has been replaced with "Super Lvov" which my opponent was pleased enough to warn me in advance was coming. German casualties are never remotely close to what was experienced historically in weeks 1-24.

I started this game because I wanted to see how the air war could be different from previous games and post up some strats that some newer players might find useful. As for the game itself, there are no illusions. If it goes to the end and the game comes out a draw, that will have to be good enough.

(in reply to xhoel)

Post #: 58

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/18/2018 2:02:24 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

German casualties are never remotely close to what was experienced historically in weeks 1-24.

Everything M60 brought up is true. I emphasize the sentence above for good measure.

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(in reply to M60A3TTS)

Post #: 59

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60... - 10/18/2018 1:28:45 PM

Crackaces

Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

German casualties are never remotely close to what was experienced historically in weeks 1-24.

Everything M60 brought up is true. I emphasize the sentence above for good measure.

Statistics N=2:

Baseline for discussion "Turns 1 - 25"

According to Wikipedia (and references within)

German causalities: Killed 186,542 Soviet 586,952

German AFV's Lost: 2,735 Soviet: 20,500 AFV's

2x3 Casualties (+1 Soviet)

German Causulies Killed: 144,998 Soviet 624,370

German AVF's Lost: 2,493 Soviet 13,978

8MP Casaulties:(no +1 attack)

German Killed 132,014 Soviet 493,037

AFV's Lost 2,257 Soviet 14,443

Using the logic in multiple AAR's and forums .. it looks like the Soviets are superman <smile>

This is a game not a similation. Two major battles where the German's got their clock cleaned in the intial moments of Operation Barbarossa are not going to happen because of the combat engine. (Battle of Brody for example). Otherwise at least these two games produced reasonable results to "historcal" (besides the superman Soviet tanks) turns 1-25.

This is just a thought .. but I might propose this constant balance discussion in every AAR is ruining the game. Instead of games compleating players are rationalizing "the game is borked" then one could say that has an effect on prospective buyers of the game who will wait unit the game is "balanced"

What I am most interested in this AAR is if M60 applies any lessons learned from the 8MP game for Soviet air, and does it make a difference. Ok back into lurking mode.

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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 60

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