German AI - what constraints does it have?

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German AI - what constraints does it have? - 9/20/2018 8:06:40 AM

vodkaferret

Posts: 6
Joined: 3/20/2012
Status: offline

I normally play as the Germans vs AI, played once as Soviet under v1.03 and lost a minor defeat but had a lot of fun.

However starting a game now under 1.05 it seems the German AI is virtually unconstrained - by 16th July the war is nearly over. Now I have no problem losing - I'm quite good at it actually

- but the AI seems to be limited by virtually none of the constraints a human player is.

Examples - the German AI can move more than one PG into another theatre of operations, and both PG's operate without restriction. If the AI is not using PP then I can understand that the out-of-theatre constraint is essentially non-existent, but it does add a big advantage.

More importantly the German AI seems unconstrained by both supply and command range - they seem be able to move any unit it's full distance in a way that a human player either struggles with or simply cannot do - if my troops move out of command range they take a big hit to AP (I believe it's -70 for fast units and -30 for slow). But the German AI troops never seem limited and don't seem to take the command range hit. For example:

20th July 1941:

1 unit of 2PG (nominally from AGC) is attacking my lines - 2 hexes south of Luga, near Leningrad. 3 hexes to the east are units of 4PG, from AGN.

Where are the rest of those PG's? I can't see them all due to fog of war - but 4PG has 3 units around Vyazma in the AGC zone, the nearest 150km west of Moscow. This is at least 16 hexes from their colleagues near Leningrad - I know the command range penalty only kicks in at the start of a turn but these units have been a long way apart for a long time, they did not just move that far apart. They cannot all be in 5 hex range from HQ, yet all move and attack normally. And that is 2 PG's with units operating a long way out of theatre also, with seemingly no ill effect.

The rest of the 2PG units I can see are closing in on Bryansk from the SW - some 27 hexes away from the northern 2PG unit!! Yet none seem limited for AP or supply.

This has happened repeatedly - there were 1PG units enjoying 3 battles plus 2 hexes of movement in a turn close to Proskorow, while others were moving huges distances east of Kiev towards Kharkov. In between was a salient that meant command range would not have been a straight line either.

****

I'll fight this to the bitter end, which looks like it will be mid-Aug. I'll probably then try another Soviet game with FoW off so I can see just how silly it is - and then I'll probably have to limit myself to playing German only. The game is tough for the Soviets anyway, but if supply and command restrictions don't apply to the German AI then it becomes both super difficult - and super annoying.

Having said all that, I still love the game - I just like the rules to be the same for both sides!!

Post #: 1

RE: German AI - what constraints does it have? - 9/20/2018 8:24:11 AM

lancer

Posts: 2963
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline

Hi vodkaferret,

The German AI has a lot more freedom of operation than a human player would. In all the areas you've highlighted the AI has more room to move.

Ideally both the Human and AI would play by the same rules but the complexity of the underlying logistical simulation built into the game makes this problematic. It's doable but it's the difference between doing a free ascent of the mountain that I can see out my window (takes four hours from door to summit and I'm carrying only a rainjacket and water) and Mt. Everest. You could say a similar thing, but on a smaller scale, for PG's swapping theatres and command range.

The Soviet AI also gets advantages that a human Soviet player wouldn't have, primarily in activation.

I'd perservere with the Soviet side as it's a very different experience that requires a different mindset. The German AI, while good, is definitely beatable but, like the German side, getting a win requires an apprenticeship.

Playing the Germans is about getting enough fuel to your PG's to enable you to punch through, encircle and keep going. The words I'd use here are 'Precision' and 'Coordination'. The Soviets are about being 'Ruthless'. Dismiss, Shoot and abandon your Marshals and troops in order to save the Motherland.

I like your forum name.

Cheers,
Cameron (designer)

< Message edited by lancer -- 9/20/2018 8:25:33 AM >

(in reply to vodkaferret)

Post #: 2

RE: German AI - what constraints does it have? - 9/20/2018 9:09:16 AM

vodkaferret

Posts: 6
Joined: 3/20/2012
Status: offline

Hi Cameron,

Thanks for your reply - I knew the theatre boundary thing wouldn't be a limit (I remember reading somewhere that the AI doesn't handle the decisions as a human does, hence no PP - and I completely understand why) - but I was surprised to see the command radius wasn't accounted for either.

As I say, first time I played Sovs a while ago I did a lot better and enjoyed it - it's good to know the AI is beatable, so I guess I'll just have to keep trying and consider it a completely different game, rather than the same game but playing a different side - that should help reduce the feeling of unfairness

. As you rightly say, playing as Germany takes practice, I just never did as horribly as I have here!!

Thanks for all the work you put in to the game, and for still supporting it now - as I said at the start, I do love it, it's an absolute masterpiece IMO.

(in reply to lancer)

Post #: 3

RE: German AI - what constraints does it have? - 9/20/2018 1:48:09 PM

Oberst_Klink

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vodkaferret

Hi Cameron,

Thanks for your reply - I knew the theatre boundary thing wouldn't be a limit (I remember reading somewhere that the AI doesn't handle the decisions as a human does, hence no PP - and I completely understand why) - but I was surprised to see the command radius wasn't accounted for either.

As I say, first time I played Sovs a while ago I did a lot better and enjoyed it - it's good to know the AI is beatable, so I guess I'll just have to keep trying and consider it a completely different game, rather than the same game but playing a different side - that should help reduce the feeling of unfairness . As you rightly say, playing as Germany takes practice, I just never did as horribly as I have here!!

Thanks for all the work you put in to the game, and for still supporting it now - as I said at the start, I do love it, it's an absolute masterpiece IMO.

That's the beauty about the game and the DC gaming system IMHO. It's a challenge - Easy enough to play, but hard to master. You already checked out the latest addition for the DC:Community Project though?

Klink, Oberst

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(in reply to vodkaferret)

Post #: 4

RE: German AI - what constraints does it have? - 9/23/2018 9:54:39 PM

lancer

Posts: 2963
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline

Hi Klink,

I can't reply to your PM as your inbox is, apparently, full.

Cheers,
Cameron

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)

Post #: 5

RE: German AI - what constraints does it have? - 9/24/2018 12:52:34 PM

Oberst_Klink

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline