Endurance vs Range

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Endurance vs Range - 10/30/2018 2:08:09 PM

robinsa

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From: North Carolina
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Ive decided to go back to this game and finally learn the air war part a little better. So far it seems interesting but I have a few questions.

What is the difference between range and endurance ? (What measures what?)

Which is the most important stat when picking long range LB?

Does the auto load out function do a satisfying job or is it necessary to go in and adjust load out manually for every new target? Is this also true for recon units?

Does equipping a few of your bombers with HMG/Cannons help to protect other bombers in the same raid? Is this a worthwhile endeavor?

Edit. Thanks in advance and sorry if this could be found in the manual. I did my best to search for it but to no avail.

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RE: Endurance vs Range - 10/30/2018 6:09:50 PM

cfulbright

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Robin,

Some responses below.

Cary

quote:

ORIGINAL: robinsa

Ive decided to go back to this game and finally learn the air war part a little better. So far it seems interesting but I have a few questions.

What is the difference between range and endurance ? (What measures what?)

Endurance is in minutes
Range is total miles that can be flown out and back, computed as Endurance * Cruise Speed
What you really care about is Radius, which is one-way range. It changes with loadout

quote:

Which is the most important stat when picking long range LB?

1. Payload is important. Not just max load, but what you're carrying. My experience is that 1000lb bombs are the most effective weapon, more effective than twice as many 500lb bombs. Lancasters are much better than Halifax, given payload options. B-26's have a better 1000lb loadout than B-25's.
2. Defensive armament is important. A B-17G will do better than a B-24D
3. Radius is important to reach distant targets
4. Max altitude is important. The Stirling is flak bait because of its limited max altitude

quote:

Does the auto load out function do a satisfying job or is it necessary to go in and adjust load out manually for every new target? Is this also true for recon units?

I personally do all my own loadouts to maximize use of 1000lb bombs.
I fly all my recon at 24K and use medium cameras, except for the Mustang/F-6A, which only do low-level, and I upgrade as soon as I can, and the F-9, which only does high-level, but is good for deep recon of Ploesti oil and fuel sites.

quote:

Does equipping a few of your bombers with HMG/Cannons help to protect other bombers in the same raid? Is this a worthwhile endeavor?

How are you doing that? I haven't seen changing guns as one of the options in loadouts.

quote:

Edit. Thanks in advance and sorry if this could be found in the manual. I did my best to search for it but to no avail.

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Post #: 2

RE: Endurance vs Range - 10/31/2018 8:27:42 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: robinsa

...

Does the auto load out function do a satisfying job or is it necessary to go in and adjust load out manually for every new target? Is this also true for recon units?

...

There are two situations where I find it is essential (ie worth the effort). Plenty where you can get marginal gains but to be honest it takes too long and is rather hit and miss in any case.

So when:

a) Bomber Command tends to use a people killing payload. HE to blow open buildings, incendiaries to start fires. Ignoring any issue of morality, this is good if you are doing the default BC night mission of HI+Manpower over the Ruhr. But you can do U-Boat raids with BC, and if I am bombing U-boats around Hamburg I'll swap this to a heavier high explosive mix. Just remember to swap back when you default to HI/Manpower raids.

b) For Ground attack missions aimed at units, and (less sure here) Ground Support, lots of small bombs are the best payload. So look for the highest number of 250lb bombs you can load up. If you are doing Ground Attack - interdiction missions, then go with rockets (if you can). The latter is a very good use of obsolete but plentiful Hurricane IIs.

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RE: Endurance vs Range - 10/31/2018 1:57:55 PM

robinsa

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From: North Carolina
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Thank you very much for your replies! Very helpful!

cfulbright: With regards to the HMGs it looks like some bombers have the option of fitting for example 50 cal towers vs more HMGs, but Im not sure how this is actually selected in the loadout. I just see it when I compare the different load outs. Ill try to reply to you once I figure it out (if I do)

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RE: Endurance vs Range - 10/31/2018 4:56:29 PM

cfulbright

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Loki,

Interesting you recommend more smaller bombs. When I ran tests - admittedly over a year ago, so aircraft and Device databases may have changed - I had the best results with 1000lb bombs over 500lb bombs, and rockets were pretty weak.

Cary

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RE: Endurance vs Range - 10/31/2018 4:56:52 PM

cfulbright

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Robin,

Please let me know which aircraft you see that. I'm very curious now.

Cary

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Post #: 6

RE: Endurance vs Range - 11/1/2018 8:15:58 AM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cfulbright

Loki,

Interesting you recommend more smaller bombs. When I ran tests - admittedly over a year ago, so aircraft and Device databases may have changed - I had the best results with 1000lb bombs over 500lb bombs, and rockets were pretty weak.

Cary

Rockets I'm sure of. If its interdiction you want to generate, they are the weapon system of choice. Bomb type .. maybe time to double check my assumptions

I'll do some left hand-right hand tests with Breakout and Pursuit (my favourite test ground for these things) and see what I come up with

Roger

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RE: Endurance vs Range - 11/1/2018 6:11:01 PM

cfulbright

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I posted something on this forum probably two years ago based on tests I did. it was a screenshot of an XLS showing the damage done. These all were unit attacks, not interdiction.

I'll try to find it

Cary

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Post #: 8

RE: Endurance vs Range - 11/1/2018 6:17:29 PM

cfulbright

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Roger,

This is what I wrote on Oct. 23, 2016. Data changes may have affected things since then.

Has anyone come to any conclusions on what aircraft loadouts work best against infantry and armor? I did a small test:

- Allied aircraft in Feb 1945 (fair weather, late-war loadouts available including napalm for P-47D-25's)
- Target one infantry unit and one armor unit
- Use ~100-150 aircraft per mission
- Fly 1/3/5/7 days of week, at 11K altitude, area size=0, one mission per day, all AC requested
- Compare defensive strength before and after air phase

Because I wanted to test the P-45D-25's napalm loadout, I used a game I had played that went into Jan. 1945. The German units are generally weak, so that might weaken the findings. Also, the sample size is small.

My findings:

1. Fewer larger bombs are generally more effective than twice as many larger bombs (probably due to much higher accuracy rating)
2. Against infantry, GP bombs are more effective than rockets
3. Against armor, rockets are roughly as effective as bombs
4. Incendiaries, including the P-47D-25's napalm, are least effective against both infantry and armor

I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has looked at this.

Cary

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RE: Endurance vs Range - 11/4/2018 5:35:34 AM

robinsa

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From: North Carolina
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Thank you very much for all your replies!

Cfullbright, it turned out I was reading the menu incorrectly. When comparing different aircraft's it says, for example, 2x hmg aft, 2x hmg front, 2x turret etc. and I for some reason thought these were different configurations and not list of the bombers defensive weapons.

A few more question regarding the OBOE radar, does it help US bombers during night or is it only for bomber command? How do you use the B24s? It appears they are rather lightly armored and perhaps suited for night raids? When bombing during night, is there any idea in doing anything but Manpower bombing? Historically I believe it would have been very difficult to hit a factory from high altitude even during day and I imagine it must have been even more difficult during night. Finally, is there any point in doing night bombing outside of the OBOE radar? Do you switch bomber command over to day raids later in the war when German air power has been reduced?

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RE: Endurance vs Range - 11/4/2018 8:11:24 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: robinsa

...

A few more question regarding the OBOE radar, does it help US bombers during night or is it only for bomber command? How do you use the B24s? It appears they are rather lightly armored and perhaps suited for night raids? When bombing during night, is there any idea in doing anything but Manpower bombing? Historically I believe it would have been very difficult to hit a factory from high altitude even during day and I imagine it must have been even more difficult during night. Finally, is there any point in doing night bombing outside of the OBOE radar? Do you switch bomber command over to day raids later in the war when German air power has been reduced?

In some sort of order:

a) I think OBOE would support any night air mission but I've never put 8 AAF on night bombing so not tested

b) B24s. I often organise 8 AAF into 3 blocks. The bulk of the B-17s do a standard bombing mission over a broad area (say 3 hexes), a smaller group go after something specific (such as trucks or medium tanks) and often are specifically targetted at just one hex. I then use the B-24s either for another broad area mission where I think the Luftwaffe are going to be absent or some very specific raids. Their range for example makes them ideal for bombing up to and beyond the Elbe in 1943 (eg those U-Boats out at Koenigsberg)

c) BC at night, stick mostly to manpower plus factory targets. But it can be useful for some U-Boat raids etc. You want to mix up your missions to keep the Luftwaffe off balance. So using BC on the U-Boats around Hamburg can work, so can doing some missions at a lower altitude etc.

d) outside OBOE efficiency really drops. As above, you want some variation but basically BC is a tool to reduce the Ruhr to ruins - anything else is a bonus.

e) no reason why not, by late 1944 onwards you are pretty much out of targets in the Rhine/Hamburg region and the Luftwaffe should be beaten.

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RE: Endurance vs Range - 11/4/2018 8:37:38 AM

robinsa

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Thank you very much for your reply. Reading up on the real world OBOE got me wondering if Mosquitos had to be involved to mark targets or not but now I know, thanks.

Another question, in a try to destroy the Luftwaffe on the ground Im using the FBs to attack their airfields. Is there a reason why hardly any enemy assets are destroyed on the ground? It seems to cause a lot of A2A fighting, but is there anyway to destroy enemy assets on the ground?

Edit. Never mind the question I edited out, I misunderstood.

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< Message edited by robinsa -- 11/4/2018 8:47:34 AM >

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RE: Endurance vs Range - 11/4/2018 10:33:23 AM

LiquidSky

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The best weapon to do airfield attacks with is the strat bombers of the 8th airforce. Carpet bomb those airfields into oblivion...but a player rarely obliges by putting his air where the early US fighters can reach....so they probably get chewed up pretty bad doing it.

Stuka's can take machineguns instead of bombs (12 of them!)...I experimented with them in the hopes that they would suddenly turn into super fighters...but that was not to be.

Transfer all Wellingtons, Halifaxes and Lancasters into Bomber Command. Do a three hex Night bombing mission of Manpower only from Cologne to Essen.....and leave it there. Fly either 3 or 4 days a week. THey will be doing this for a long time. Have all your Night Fighters in BC as well..but they dont all have to escort..some can do Night Intruder.

For loadouts..the computer is mostly good......except for a few cases. Fighters you give Drop tanks to if you are allied...and strip them if you are Axis. Axis take the extra cannons on the Bf's. The drop tanks change by date for the allies....so you may have to adjust them every few turns...also if the squadron swaps out for other aircraft (on automatic) then their loadout will default...you have to change it again.

All twin engine bombers I put in 9th airforce. Until they have to bomb V-wpn sites..they usually bomb the Ruhr by Day....hitting railyards mostly. I switch it around Netherlands/Belgium/ etc...and hit railyards there as it amuses me.until I know where I want to invade..then I just concentrate there.

I put all the allied aircraft on auto upgrade....a lot of the spitfires will turn into Hurricanes. Those I retrain as bombers....and equip them with rockets. This will later give me about 30 squadrons each of Typhoons and Hurricanes which I can alternate between interdiction to keep up the pressure.

8th airforce only bombs where the lightnings can reach...and later mustangs. Until I know the Luftwaffe has been beat...then I use the B-17's independantly and let the Liberators bomb with escort

The Ruhr all by itself is worth a lot of VP's in 1943. You will have to venture out occasionally to hit subs...but almost always you should be bombing the crap out of the Ruhr. I can usually get about 15-20 vps a turn by the end of 1943 (in 1944 it will halve when the divisor doubles)

Also..hitting German Manpower, Heavy Industry, and Fuel/Oil stuff gets you VP's. Hitting the other stuff does not...but may help you anyways. Vehicles are good..Railyards are good....

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RE: Endurance vs Range - 11/4/2018 2:19:52 PM

cfulbright

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Joined: 5/7/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: robinsa

Thank you very much for all your replies!

Cfulbright, it turned out I was reading the menu incorrectly. When comparing different aircraft's it says, for example, 2x hmg aft, 2x hmg front, 2x turret etc. and I for some reason thought these were different configurations and not list of the bombers defensive weapons.

A few more question regarding the OBOE radar, does it help US bombers during night or is it only for bomber command? How do you use the B24s? It appears they are rather lightly armored and perhaps suited for night raids? When bombing during night, is there any idea in doing anything but Manpower bombing? Historically I believe it would have been very difficult to hit a factory from high altitude even during day and I imagine it must have been even more difficult during night. Finally, is there any point in doing night bombing outside of the OBOE radar? Do you switch bomber command over to day raids later in the war when German air power has been reduced?

Loki answered most of your questions. I would add that I use the B-24's in the Med bombing Ploesti and Vienna oil and fiel, because the Axis AI tends to focus its fighters to the north. I swap all 8th AAF bombers to B-17G's.

I definitely use Bomber Command in day bombing of the railyards and railways for a few turns before D-Day. This also is what happened in history.

I've had pretty good results having Bomber Command target U-Boat factories and also Fuel around Hamburg. Use the 14x1000lb loadout.

Cary

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RE: Endurance vs Range - 11/8/2018 11:01:18 AM

robinsa

Posts: 183
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From: North Carolina
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Thank you very much again for all your replies!

< Message edited by robinsa -- 11/8/2018 1:19:34 PM >

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RE: Endurance vs Range - 11/8/2018 1:46:28 PM

cfulbright

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There are log files that I think are stored in a folder in the folder you selected to store your saves for the game you're playing. They're not in a CSV format but rather a line-by-line list of things that happened in either the air or ground phase. Can't be CSV because they're different types of events with different parameters. At the bottom of the air logs there are tables showing destroyed and damaged by aircraft type against aircraft type. For example, in the following it shows that my Spitfire IX's shot down 1 Bf 109G-6 and 12 Bf 110G-2.

Cary

AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE STATISTICS DESTROYED DAMAGED DAMAGE POINTS SORTIES
____________________________________________________________________________________________
F R I E N D L Y
___________________________________
Spitfire VIII 3 5 113 164
Bf 109G-6 3 5 113 -
___________________________________
Spitfire VB 1 3 56 42
Bf 109G-6 1 3 56 -
___________________________________
Spitfire IX 13 34 631 1385
Bf 109G-6 1 2 33 -
Bf 110G-2 12 32 598 -
___________________________________
Spitfire XII 2 4 66 192
Bf 109G-6 2 4 66 -
___________________________________
Typhoon IB 6 17 375 1199
Bf 110G-2 6 17 375 -
___________________________________
Beaufighter VIF 1 4 109 310
Bf 110G-4 1 4 109 -
___________________________________
Mosquito NF.XIII 10 26 647 509
Bf 110F-4 0 1 13 -
Bf 110G-4 9 22 581 -
Bf 110G-4 (RU) 1 3 53 -
___________________________________
Lancaster B.I 0 2 43 264
Bf 110G-4 0 2 43 -
___________________________________
P-38G/H Lightning 14 40 699 141
Bf 109G-2 0 5 69 -
Bf 109G-6 11 29 503 -
D.520 (BU) 3 6 127 -
___________________________________
P-47D-5 Thunderbolt 42 70 2298 435
Bf 109G-6 23 37 1238 -
Me 410A 5 12 322 -
He 112B (RU) 6 8 248 -
IAR 81C 4 5 250 -
Me 210Ca-1 4 8 240 -
___________________________________
B-17F Fortress 0 1 28 179
Bf 109G-6 0 1 28 -
___________________________________
B-17G Fortress 2 2 64 127
Bf 109G-2 1 1 31 -
Bf 109G-6 1 1 33 -
___________________________________
TOTAL 94 208 5129

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