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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> Mods and Scenarios >> RE: TOAWxml Editor

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RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/21/2021 5:13:15 PM

76mm

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quote:

Eventually information will be swapped back and forth between the tactical and operational?

Zackly, so you can play tactical battles and have the results imported into TOAW, or play TOAW and have the results reflected in the next tactical battle. Obviously to do this you need to be able to edit saved game files, so a separate part of the program does that. The whole process is rather complex, so I doubt that most people will want to mess with it, but if I get it right, I'll enjoy it very much.

I don't actually know of any tactical games that allow the export of end-game data, so all the tactical results will have to be entered by hand. Kind of a pain, but the good news is that you could use any tactical system you want...currently I'm looking at using ASL and/or CMBB for tactical land warfare, and different sets of miniatures rules for air/naval battles.

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Post #: 601

RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/21/2021 7:49:38 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

Eventually information will be swapped back and forth between the tactical and operational?

Zackly, so you can play tactical battles and have the results imported into TOAW, or play TOAW and have the results reflected in the next tactical battle. Obviously to do this you need to be able to edit saved game files, so a separate part of the program does that. The whole process is rather complex, so I doubt that most people will want to mess with it, but if I get it right, I'll enjoy it very much.

I don't actually know of any tactical games that allow the export of end-game data, so all the tactical results will have to be entered by hand. Kind of a pain, but the good news is that you could use any tactical system you want...currently I'm looking at using ASL and/or CMBB for tactical land warfare, and different sets of miniatures rules for air/naval battles.

Wow. That has so many possibilities.

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Post #: 602

RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/21/2021 8:29:10 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Wow. That has so many possibilities.

I've played two "meta-campaigns" like this...one on a hand-drawn hex map (and ASL) and the second in a custom VASSAL module (and CMBB). Both were by far the most interesting wargaming experience I ever had...a huge variety of tactical encounters in all terrain and weather conditions, with persistent forces/leaders, all of which had greater or lesser significance for the operational layer. I enjoy the "role-playing" aspect of watching the various leaders and units rise and fall during the course of the campaign, tracking kills and experience gains, etc.

The main problem with the previous iterations was that every single battle had to be fought at the tactical level, which means you have to create a map, etc. Rather tedious... This time, using TOAW as the op-layer I'll be able to use it to fight the boring battles and only play out the more interesting ones in the tac-layer.

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Post #: 603

RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/21/2021 9:59:51 PM

Lobster

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Need some way to automate the whole thing.

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Post #: 604

RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/21/2021 11:32:59 PM

76mm

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Can't automate the whole thing until/unless a good tactical level game allows import/export of game data, which none do. For that matter, of operational level games only TOAW allows for it (and even then technically not for saved game data). While the JTS Panzer Campaigns games store all data in unencrypted text files, plain text is harder to work with than XML and besides Panzer Campaigns has no map editor :-(.

Unfortunately data import/export does not seem to be a feature to which game devs attach any value.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/21/2021 11:36:49 PM >

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Post #: 605

RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/22/2021 4:34:15 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I think I'll start with these options, unless someone has a better suggestion; can always change/add later if it turns out this isn't particularly useful.

Sometimes you can only remember the unit name but not the formation name. Especially when you get old...er.

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Post #: 606

RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/22/2021 4:42:11 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Sometimes you can only remember the unit name but not the formation name. Especially when you get old...er.

The "/" doesn't mean search for "both", but search for "either", with the result highlighted in the tree. So if you search for a unit you'll be able to see its formation in the tree. Hopefully that will be possible.

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Post #: 607

RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/22/2021 4:57:31 PM

Lobster

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Ah, I see. Thanks.

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Post #: 608

RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/22/2021 6:21:14 PM

rhinobones

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Instead of using the �single� page xml format, would it be possible to load the flat file into an Excel like spreadsheet? Built in sorting and searches would solve the problems you�re having with the current format and mass changes would be easier. After editing you would probably need a macro to return the file to a suitable upload configuration.

Regards

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Post #: 609

RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/22/2021 8:15:35 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones
Instead of using the �single� page xml format, would it be possible to load the flat file into an Excel like spreadsheet? Built in sorting and searches would solve the problems you�re having with the current format and mass changes would be easier.

I'll take a look at this, but have several concerns:
1) If I only do the "flat" searches, I won't really have any problems with the current format, I think it would be relatively easy to display a flat list of a single layer in the hierarchy--I just don't think that it would be very useful; I could also easily add sorting. You can see how a "spreadsheet" style flat XML document would look like if you check out my "Equipment DB Viewer" (also in this subforum). It basically looks like a spreadsheet and acts like one to a certain extent (has sorting, but no replace function).

I'm not really eager to try importing hierarchical XML (eg, Force, Formations, Units, Equipment) into a spreadsheets, which are inherently flat. I know that Excel allows for "nested" rows, but AFAIK those don't create truly hierarchical data and are purely a graphic thing.

2) I don't think that adding a replace feature (to allow for mass changes) would be much more difficult than a search feature, so I could probably add that as well. But if you want to make mass changes right now, it is super-easy to do so with XML files in Notepad++.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones
After editing you would probably need a macro to return the file to a suitable upload configuration.

Frankly the main reason I'm hesitant to mess around with spreadsheets is that while I think it might be pretty easy to spit out a spreadsheet which was about 80% correct, dealing with all of the issues to get it to 100% could be a nightmare. Importing the data back into XML would probably be even worse--currently all data entry via TOAWxml undergoes error validation before being added to the XML file (so you can't add text where you need a number, can't add a number which is incorrect, etc.). Just importing everything from Excel to XML would bypass all of that validation, meaning that the resulting XML could be a huge, unworkable mess, especially since errors could be introduced both while exporting from, and importing to, XML. I'm not sure, but suspect that dealing with this would involve extensive, very tedious coding, which frankly, I am loath to do.

I think you've mentioned spreadsheets a couple of times...what specifically are you wanting to do? I might be able to think of something equivalent but might work better with XML.

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Post #: 610

RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/23/2021 2:22:21 AM

rhinobones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

...what specifically are you wanting to do? I might be able to think of something equivalent but might work better with XML.

The application isn�t important to me, it�s the visual presentation and ability to modify attributes that counts. The spreadsheet would have an entire force listed along with columns for Formation Data (proficiency, general orders, entry point, entry event, etc.) and Unit Data (icon #, equipment quantity, supply, proficiency, readiness, etc.). I find that being able to see, compare and change attributes all on one screen as an efficient way to build scenarios. I find it terribly time consuming to make changes like this one screen at a time. It would also be valuable as a quality checking tool.

Columns and rows would need to have a �hide� function to remove clutter from the work area.

I realize that this may be totally impractical, and I have little knowledge of these mysterious things, so I�ll leave it as a wish list item.

Regards

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Post #: 611

RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/23/2021 6:38:21 AM

76mm

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This would be fairly similar to what I've shown in posts #597 & #598, no? I made that layout for the reasons that you describe.

It would probably be impractical to have one screen showing all formation and unit data in columns--it would require too many columns and would simply take up too much screen space. And with what I'm working with (Windows forms) I'm not sure that it is possible to hide columns and rows, or at least I don't know how to do it!

< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/23/2021 6:39:01 AM >

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Post #: 612

RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/23/2021 4:14:24 PM

rhinobones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

This would be fairly similar to what I've shown in posts #597 & #598, no?

I missed reading 597 and 598 . . . very nice work. Thank you.

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Post #: 613

RE: TOAWxml Editor - 6/23/2021 4:25:49 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones
I missed reading 597 and 598 . . . very nice work. Thank you.

Well, the bad news is that right now that interface is only in the "Tac-Layer" module, not the "XML Editor" module (meaning that some XML fields are added).

While the Tac-Layer is still work in progress, ultimately you'll be able to use it to edit a gam file by creating a tac file, editing, then exporting back to gam--obviously a convoluted process. So I'm also thinking about how/if to graft that interface onto the XML Editor, but haven't decided yet; that interface involved lots and lots of very tedious coding, and if I have to do it all again (rather than cut-and-pasting), not sure if I'll want to do it again. The main downside to this new interface is that there is not enough screen space to include all of the fields as in the original version, so not sure how to handle that. But it's on my list of things to look at...

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Post #: 614