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RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed

 
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RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/14/2018 1:58:16 PM   
PetrOs

 

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Status: offline 		The problem with that would be that while you could definitely lift it and put her in a dock - thats just the cost question - ALL the electronics would be a goner. Salt water is highly corrosive, and all non-watertight electronic installations would be damaged even by a short dip. You would need to replace all wiring and all electronics, and that is in fact much more expensive then the metal shell, and could in fact be more expensive then building a replacement from scratch, maybe using some few non-water sensitive machinery from the old one. Of course, if all electronics racks are fully waterproof, and all cabling is fiber optics, then water would not do anything, but I highly doubt that. It is not like the T-34 Tank which was found in estonian swamp a few years ago which was able to start the engine after cleaning and replacing the fuel and battery.


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Post #: 31
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/16/2018 12:28:44 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		I mean, logistically speaking... it's now somewhat easier for them to salvage the ship. It's already sunk and everybody knows how to raise sunken ships.

More expensive, though, not least because of equipment destroyed by the sinking.

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Post #: 32
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/16/2018 12:43:51 AM   
BBfanboy


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Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I mean, logistically speaking... it's now somewhat easier for them to salvage the ship. It's already sunk and everybody knows how to raise sunken ships.

More expensive, though, not least because of equipment destroyed by the sinking.

Maybe the Norwegians were prescient enough to listen to Flo and buy the Progressive Insurance idiocy coverage ...






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Post #: 33
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/21/2018 6:48:43 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		There is a clandestine war between the Principality of Malta against the Kingdom of Norway, and no-one knows for sure what is the casus belli.

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Post #: 34
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/21/2018 11:47:34 AM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

There is a clandestine war between the Principality of Malta against the Kingdom of Norway, and no-one knows for sure what is the casus belli.

Probably something to do with the Norman invasion of Malta in 1091. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_invasion_of_Malta
Some countries just can't let go of the past.

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Post #: 35
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/22/2018 1:28:58 AM   
RangerJoe


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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		The problem with that is that the Normans were not necessarily Norwegian. Some of them were from Sweden and probably Denmark as well, By the time of that invasion however, the original Northman settlers had been assimilated into the local French population.

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Post #: 36
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/22/2018 2:53:41 AM   
Knavey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BullwinkleMogami

The Honda Point disaster was the largest peacetime loss of U.S. Navy ships. On the evening of September 8, 1923, seven destroyers, while traveling at 20 knots (37 km/h), ran aground at Honda Point
USS Delphy was equipped with a radio navigation receiver, but her navigator and captain ignored its indicated bearings, believing them to be erroneous.


I wonder which cost more...I suppose in adjusted dollars, probably Honda Point, but I bet that modern frigate costs a pretty penny.


< Message edited by Knavey -- 11/22/2018 3:10:33 AM >

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Post #: 37
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/22/2018 3:13:31 AM   
Knavey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

There is a clandestine war between the Principality of Malta against the Kingdom of Norway, and no-one knows for sure what is the casus belli.

quote:

Principality of Malta against the Kingdom of Norway


Could not find info on this? Is there a link out there?

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Post #: 38
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/22/2018 5:35:52 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

quote:

ORIGINAL: BullwinkleMogami

The Honda Point disaster was the largest peacetime loss of U.S. Navy ships. On the evening of September 8, 1923, seven destroyers, while traveling at 20 knots (37 km/h), ran aground at Honda Point
USS Delphy was equipped with a radio navigation receiver, but her navigator and captain ignored its indicated bearings, believing them to be erroneous.


I wonder which cost more...I suppose in adjusted dollars, probably Honda Point, but I bet that modern frigate costs a pretty penny.



Only source I could find in short order was this one: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/dd-186.htm

$350M for 150 DDs (presumably including all the Clemsons). So that's 2.333M per DD in 1916 dollars, per DD

This Norwegian frigate was ordered in 2000 at a cost of $508M. Inflation from 1916 on $2.333M is only $35.9M. Multiply that by the 7 DDs at Honda Point and it's under the cost of the Norwegian frigate.

Gotta say I'm surprised, but then again we're talking 84 years in between and on such long timescales I don't really trust inflation to be super accurate. There are too many disruptive historical events in between. It can get in the ballpark for sure...

So I'd say it seems comparable, in monetary terms.

However, in military capability terms... that frigate is far more of Norway's navy than those 7 Clemsons were of the USN in 1916.

(in reply to Knavey)
Post #: 39
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/22/2018 5:59:54 AM   
Yaab


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From: Poland
Status: offline 		Well, as Germans might say "Versagen durch Technik".

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Post #: 40
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/22/2018 6:05:02 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

quote:

ORIGINAL: BullwinkleMogami

The Honda Point disaster was the largest peacetime loss of U.S. Navy ships. On the evening of September 8, 1923, seven destroyers, while traveling at 20 knots (37 km/h), ran aground at Honda Point
USS Delphy was equipped with a radio navigation receiver, but her navigator and captain ignored its indicated bearings, believing them to be erroneous.


I wonder which cost more...I suppose in adjusted dollars, probably Honda Point, but I bet that modern frigate costs a pretty penny.



Only source I could find in short order was this one: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/dd-186.htm

$350M for 150 DDs (presumably including all the Clemsons). So that's 2.333M per DD in 1916 dollars, per DD

This Norwegian frigate was ordered in 2000 at a cost of $508M. Inflation from 1916 on $2.333M is only $35.9M. Multiply that by the 7 DDs at Honda Point and it's under the cost of the Norwegian frigate.

Gotta say I'm surprised, but then again we're talking 84 years in between and on such long timescales I don't really trust inflation to be super accurate. There are too many disruptive historical events in between. It can get in the ballpark for sure...

So I'd say it seems comparable, in monetary terms.

However, in military capability terms... that frigate is far more of Norway's navy than those 7 Clemsons were of the USN in 1916.

To be fair, a lot more is packed into today's warships than the old four-pipers. The displacement of the Norwegian frigate was likely on the order of three of the old DDs. So many dimensions to the comparison makes it very fuzzy.

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Post #: 41
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/22/2018 6:09:27 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		So not only money inflates, but ships as well.

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Post #: 42
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/22/2018 7:52:36 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
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From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Another legendary forumite resurfaces - welcome back, Knavey.

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Post #: 43
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/22/2018 3:24:46 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

quote:

ORIGINAL: BullwinkleMogami

The Honda Point disaster was the largest peacetime loss of U.S. Navy ships. On the evening of September 8, 1923, seven destroyers, while traveling at 20 knots (37 km/h), ran aground at Honda Point
USS Delphy was equipped with a radio navigation receiver, but her navigator and captain ignored its indicated bearings, believing them to be erroneous.


I wonder which cost more...I suppose in adjusted dollars, probably Honda Point, but I bet that modern frigate costs a pretty penny.



Only source I could find in short order was this one: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/dd-186.htm

$350M for 150 DDs (presumably including all the Clemsons). So that's 2.333M per DD in 1916 dollars, per DD

This Norwegian frigate was ordered in 2000 at a cost of $508M. Inflation from 1916 on $2.333M is only $35.9M. Multiply that by the 7 DDs at Honda Point and it's under the cost of the Norwegian frigate.

Gotta say I'm surprised, but then again we're talking 84 years in between and on such long timescales I don't really trust inflation to be super accurate. There are too many disruptive historical events in between. It can get in the ballpark for sure...

So I'd say it seems comparable, in monetary terms.

However, in military capability terms... that frigate is far more of Norway's navy than those 7 Clemsons were of the USN in 1916.

To be fair, a lot more is packed into today's warships than the old four-pipers. The displacement of the Norwegian frigate was likely on the order of three of the old DDs. So many dimensions to the comparison makes it very fuzzy.


About 4 and a third, actually.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 44
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/22/2018 3:34:53 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
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Status: offline 		WWII ships were weight critical; modern ships are volume critical (in general).

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Post #: 45
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/23/2018 3:42:29 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline 		Hmmmmmm.....

quote:

"In the Norwegian magazine, Armed Forces Forum No. 2 in 2017 it was stated that “Four out of five navigators on frigate KNM Helge Ingstad are women“.

“It is advantageous to have many women on board. It will be a natural thing and a completely different environment, which I look at as positive,” Lieutenant Iselin Emilie Jakobsen Ophus said. She is a navigation officer at KNM Helge Ingstad, according to Defense Forum."


I'm sure the crew composition had nothing to do with it. Probably the excellent weather at the time.

"Advantageous".

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 46
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/23/2018 3:46:09 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

This Norwegian frigate was ordered in 2000 at a cost of $508M. Inflation from 1916 on $2.333M is only $35.9M. Multiply that by the 7 DDs at Honda Point and it's under the cost of the Norwegian frigate.


Where do you get the adjustment for inflation? I really enjoyed you doing that.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 47
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 11/23/2018 6:36:07 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
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Status: offline 		And the Norwegians billed it as "unsinkable". Doomed it with that comment.

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Post #: 48
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 12/1/2018 2:42:30 AM   
Knavey

 

Posts: 3052
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Another legendary forumite resurfaces - welcome back, Knavey.



I don't know about legendary...but I do like to poke in from time to time. Still playing!

< Message edited by Knavey -- 12/1/2018 2:44:11 AM >

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Post #: 49
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 12/1/2018 2:58:29 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Another legendary forumite resurfaces - welcome back, Knavey.



I don't know about legendary...but I do like to poke in from time to time. Still playing!



Your series of posts on the WITP forum making fun of all the "this game is broken" posts is certainly legendary. Nice to see that you're still with us...

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Post #: 50
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 12/1/2018 5:14:56 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Hmmmmmm.....

quote:

"In the Norwegian magazine, Armed Forces Forum No. 2 in 2017 it was stated that “Four out of five navigators on frigate KNM Helge Ingstad are women“.

“It is advantageous to have many women on board. It will be a natural thing and a completely different environment, which I look at as positive,” Lieutenant Iselin Emilie Jakobsen Ophus said. She is a navigation officer at KNM Helge Ingstad, according to Defense Forum."


I'm sure the crew composition had nothing to do with it. Probably the excellent weather at the time.

"Advantageous".


Because male navigators never wrecked any ships ever. Ever. Not once.

Definitely not in the last few years.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

This Norwegian frigate was ordered in 2000 at a cost of $508M. Inflation from 1916 on $2.333M is only $35.9M. Multiply that by the 7 DDs at Honda Point and it's under the cost of the Norwegian frigate.


Where do you get the adjustment for inflation? I really enjoyed you doing that.


Google for it. Pick a calculator of your choice, although they vary slightly.

Bankrate and BLS are reliable.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 51
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 12/1/2018 6:16:04 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

Where do you get the adjustment for inflation? I really enjoyed you doing that.


Google for it. Pick a calculator of your choice, although they vary slightly.

Bankrate and BLS are reliable.


It was sarcasm.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 52
RE: Here We Go Again - A Norwegian Frigate Rammed - 12/1/2018 9:00:21 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

Where do you get the adjustment for inflation? I really enjoyed you doing that.


Google for it. Pick a calculator of your choice, although they vary slightly.

Bankrate and BLS are reliable.


It was sarcasm.


Alas, one could only hope that you would know when adjusting for inflation was appropriate and when it wasn't.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 53
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