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RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/9/2018 1:03:44 PM

Hubert Cater

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It's a little hard to compare AOD scale directly to this release as one uses hexes and the other tiles and as has been pointed out above some distances, when comparing between the two, are either longer or shorter etc.

Designing a world map is quite the undertaking and when we were reviewing the initial proposals the current scale looked and felt about right for what we wanted to achieve as highlighted a bit more in the second post.

It's possible to go much larger, which is maybe preferable for some of the land combat areas, but then possibly introduces a lot of tedium in other parts of the map, or the desire to use a lot of transit loops and so on.

We diligently tried to strike the right balance and I hope players play a few games and let the new system bed itself in prior to passing final judgement.

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Post #: 31

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/9/2018 1:29:56 PM

Toby42

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I do own other of your titles. I am put off by the reports of gridlock in China? So I'm on the fence until I can make a proper decision on buying?

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Post #: 32

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/9/2018 3:35:00 PM

Dorky8

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I just asked for a refund. The scale just doesn't work for me.

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Post #: 33

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/9/2018 4:14:59 PM

BillRunacre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toby42

I do own other of your titles. I am put off by the reports of gridlock in China? So I'm on the fence until I can make a proper decision on buying?

Hi

Judging by the battle reports we received throughout the beta testing, and from my own playing experience, the war in China is actually somewhat more mobile than it was for much of the period covered by this game.

By 1939 Chinese resistance had stiffened greatly and the Japanese were making less headway than before, so China should have a more static feel about it unless Japan invests significant forces into the area (potentially risking their preparations for war with the USA etc) or Japan weakens their forces here too much.

Bill

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Post #: 34

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/9/2018 4:32:48 PM

Numdydar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toby42

I do own other of your titles. I am put off by the reports of gridlock in China? So I'm on the fence until I can make a proper decision on buying?

I have had no issues in advancing in China so I am not sure where that issue is coming from. The below shows what I have done by Nov '41

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 35

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/9/2018 4:42:23 PM

Tanaka

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I don't think most of us were looking for the same scale as WIE just a little bigger than what is currently offered. Maybe someone will make a mod...

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Post #: 36

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/9/2018 5:25:17 PM

budd

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I'm one of the ones defiantly on the fence and the concern about the map scale is the only reason i haven't bought yet. I didn't enjoy the original map size of the first global, but the AOD map size felt right. I know its not a straight comparison with the tiles and hexes, but it appears a lot smaller than the AOD map. Just not sure.

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Post #: 37

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/9/2018 5:54:23 PM

Titan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

The action points are the same on tanks( w/mobility 6)in both games. So in WIE its 5 1/3 turns from Warsaw to Moscow in WAW it 3 1/3. With all due respect this map or ranges needs a major rework.

Not so much the ranges, map needs to be bigger, You need to be able to deploy and move your army in a meaningful way.

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Post #: 38

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/9/2018 6:03:36 PM

Smirfy

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Let's face it in WWII lots of the world map is redundant. Most of Africa, Australia, South Pacific, Central Russia won't figure unless its a fantasy and all of South America is of little value. I think the Devs could have been more creative with the map and perhaps broken in down into theatres. Basically, the units don't scale with the map.

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Post #: 39

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/9/2018 6:11:51 PM

Dorky8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Titan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

The action points are the same on tanks( w/mobility 6)in both games. So in WIE its 5 1/3 turns from Warsaw to Moscow in WAW it 3 1/3. With all due respect this map or ranges needs a major rework.

Not so much the ranges, map needs to be bigger, You need to be able to deploy and move your army in a meaningful way.

Thats my point

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Post #: 40

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/9/2018 6:41:02 PM

Simulacra53

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The lower hex resolution makes for a very congested game, not only on the large front engagements like China and Russia, but also at sea (and in the air) the room for maneuvering has been reduced dramatically. I am still enjoying the game, but it indeed has lost some of the War in Europe shine. China is more like a shuffle puzzle than a strategy game as you shuffle your way forward, sideward, backward, forward - attack completed. Essentially the same game, but the resolution make the terrain feel even smaller than half sized - the global theatre does not change that feeling of congestion.

BTW I�d love a PTO only scenario.

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Post #: 41

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 1:13:03 AM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jackharry

I understand the logic not to use a WIE scale for a world map but would a AOD scale not have been a good compromise

Hi Jackharry,

I hesitated to fully respond on this as I was unfortunately out of town this weekend and away from my computer so I could not give more definitive responses without being able to check the details first hand between the two games.

So that being said, and after looking at what we've got more closely, is it not really all that close to AoD, if not perhaps in many cases a better scale with WaW?

For example:

AoD (France) -> width X height 11 x 13 (along Paris)
WaW (France) -> width X height 16 x 14 (along Paris)

AoD (Poland) -> width X height 12 x 5 (along Warsaw)
WaW (Poland) -> width X height 13 x 7 (along Warsaw)

AoD (China) -> width X height 15 x 28 (along Chungking)
WaW (China) -> width X height 21 x 19 (along Chungking)

AoD (Germany) -> width X height 7 x 12 (along Berlin)
WaW (Germany) -> width X height 10 x 13 (along Berlin)

AoD (USSR) -> width X height 29 x 38 (along Moscow as wide as to Sverdlovsk)
WaW (USSR) -> width X height 39 x 41 (along Moscow as wide as to Sverdlovsk)

Even looking at Italy, in most points in AoD, Italy is only 2 tiles wide, while in WaW it is 3 hexes wide and so on.

Hubert

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 12/10/2018 1:47:56 AM >

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Post #: 42

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 1:35:47 AM

Christolos

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I agree. I was hoping for a Pacific theatre game only...
To be honest, I bought this for two main reasons. 1) to support the developers, and 2) to play the Pacific theater aspect.

C

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Post #: 43

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 1:49:23 AM

Hubert Cater

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Thanks Christolos, it is much appreciated as this is still a niche development and every little bit helps to ensure future games

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Post #: 44

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 7:33:34 AM

Simulacra53

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With all due respect - the loss of reolution is compared to War in Europe. - comparing WAW hex map with AoD�s old square based map is glossing that over - marketing style.

Sure old global vs new global.

...but I cannot just forget War in Europe, which IMO has a very nice scale.

What WaW needs is a PTO only map at close to WIE scale (even as a DLC).

Not complaining, Istill like the new game.

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Post #: 45

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 12:49:45 PM

Hubert Cater

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Fair enough and since the question was asked I felt it appropriate to respond, hopefully that is ok?

Either way, for those that enjoyed AoD, they should feel right at home in terms of scale, and for those that want a scale similar to War in Europe we do hope that after a few play throughs there will be some appreciation for the design choices that led to this game. We also understand that it might not be the case and that is fair enough as well.

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Post #: 46

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 12:53:24 PM

Simulacra53

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Thanks for taking time to answer these comments - respect.

To criticize is easy compared to creating.

Thanks again for a very nice game - I am sure you�ll keep on tweaking and improving WaW until it purrs.

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Post #: 47

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 1:05:08 PM

Hubert Cater

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Our pleasure

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RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 4:14:52 PM

jackharry

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Hi Hubert

Thanks for the detailed reply to the WAW/AOD map comparison, it is this sort of over and beyond service that makes yourself and Bill stand out from other game developers.

I have to be honest and state that my initial reaction to WAW was based on my memory of AOD, it has actually been a while since I played it as it was not loaded on my new PC and I've been too busy with WIE!

After your post I have revisited it (nice service by the way in being able to download it from Matrix) and, of course, you are right. The map scale is very similar in the European theatre, and while I think it is still a little bigger in the Pacific, there is not as much in it as I had "remembered". I think the different style of map, different zoom levels and being spoilt by the awesome map in WIE had been playing tricks with my memory.

In saying that if you were ever to consider offering a larger map as a DLC you will have at least 1 buyer!

The point you made about simply getting used to the much larger WIE map is correct and hopefully it will just take a couple of playthroughs to get used to it. It is really your fault though, as you spoilt us with the WIE map.

Thanks for an awesome set of games and for the tremendous after sales service you always give.

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Post #: 49

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 4:18:06 PM

budd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

quote:

ORIGINAL: jackharry

I understand the logic not to use a WIE scale for a world map but would a AOD scale not have been a good compromise

Hi Jackharry,

I hesitated to fully respond on this as I was unfortunately out of town this weekend and away from my computer so I could not give more definitive responses without being able to check the details first hand between the two games.

So that being said, and after looking at what we've got more closely, is it not really all that close to AoD, if not perhaps in many cases a better scale with WaW?

For example:

AoD (France) -> width X height 11 x 13 (along Paris)
WaW (France) -> width X height 16 x 14 (along Paris)

AoD (Poland) -> width X height 12 x 5 (along Warsaw)
WaW (Poland) -> width X height 13 x 7 (along Warsaw)

AoD (China) -> width X height 15 x 28 (along Chungking)
WaW (China) -> width X height 21 x 19 (along Chungking)

AoD (Germany) -> width X height 7 x 12 (along Berlin)
WaW (Germany) -> width X height 10 x 13 (along Berlin)

AoD (USSR) -> width X height 29 x 38 (along Moscow as wide as to Sverdlovsk)
WaW (USSR) -> width X height 39 x 41 (along Moscow as wide as to Sverdlovsk)

Even looking at Italy, in most points in AoD, Italy is only 2 tiles wide, while in WaW it is 3 hexes wide and so on.

Hubert

Thanks Hubert for the map details, no reason not to buy now

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Post #: 50

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 4:52:55 PM

MVokt

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I think that to have made a World map with the same scale than SC War in Europe would have been almost crazy with huge out of play areas.

Let's think of South America or Siberia; those are vast territories that would be there virtually for nothing. Or to accurately represent the vastness of the Pacific Ocean which covers 1/3 of the Earth's surface:an almost impossible task.

So IMO, for the sake of playability some compromises have to be made when it comes to make a World sized wargame map.

Furthermore, scale of the SC World at War map appears to be similar to that of World in Flames.

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Post #: 51

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 5:04:29 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

It is really your fault though, as you spoilt us with the WIE map.

Thank you and for sure the War in Europe map is special and it of course works incredibly well at that scale as a stand alone game, no arguments there

.

However, when considering scale for the Global release, if we were to keep that scale, and roughly assuming that the War in Europe map represents a quarter of the world map, that would put it at approximately 536x276. This would almost quadruple the number of playable hexes to around 148,000 hexes which makes for an absolutely massive map.

Some WiE games at their peak have nearly 400 total units on the map, and if we approximately double that to represent the entire world you are looking at your peak somewhere near 400 to 500 units per side.

Again, adding in the dead areas of the map, the number of units, the likely need for transit loops as well as the increase in the time it would take to play out a turn (multiplayer or vs the AI) we had to seriously question the playability of a game at that scale.

It's not to say that some would still enjoy that, clearly from the responses here some definitely would, but we had to think hard to find the right sweet spot that would ensure playability across the multiplayer and AI spectrum.

For example we already had one negative Steam review because AI turns, with our current map scale, took up to 2 minutes to play out, and I can only imagine the feeling if an AI turn took significantly longer due to a much larger map at the desired scale.

For example, at 400 units per side late in the game, with combat and movement animations turned on, and assuming a 3 second average per unit for all movement and combat you'd be looking at AI turns of 20 minutes at a minimum. Human turns would probably take 3 times as long if you were lucky.

Those are serious concerns of playability we unfortunately had to consider.

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RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 5:07:33 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MVokt

I think that to have made a World map with the same scale than SC War in Europe would have been almost crazy with huge out of play areas.

Let's think of South America or Siberia; those are vast territories that would be there virtually for nothing. Or to accurately represent the vastness of the Pacific Ocean which covers 1/3 of the Earth's surface:an almost impossible task.

So IMO, for the sake of playability some compromises have to be made when it comes to make a World sized wargame map.

Furthermore, scale of the SC World at War map appears to be similar to that of World in Flames.

Thanks MVokt, didn't see your post until after I posted my response but as you can see it covers our thinking similarly.

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RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 5:29:41 PM

Smirfy

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Were boxes not considered to represent areas of the globe that will never be used? I am not sure in a large scale strategic wargame that armoured trains, AA and anti-tanks units are absolutely necessary.

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Post #: 54

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 5:37:46 PM

elmo3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

The action points are the same on tanks( w/mobility 6)in both games. So in WIE its 5 1/3 turns from Warsaw to Moscow in WAW it 3 1/3. With all due respect this map or ranges needs a major rework.

Turns in WiE are 7 days so that is about 37 days from Warsaw to Moscow. Turns in WaW are 14 days so that is about 47 days from Warsaw to Moscow. So units are about 25-30% slower moving in WaW. Not sure I would call for a "major" rework based on that, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Edit - If it is still possible to get historical results with historical play, as Hubert says it is, then I'm ok with the differences.

< Message edited by elmo3 -- 12/10/2018 5:39:31 PM >

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Post #: 55

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 5:46:09 PM

roy64

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Did you consider using map in the same way as in Empire Total War? I like the game but I can't see myself playing beyond December due to the map size which for me is a massive disappointment.

Am I right in thinking the map size can't or will not changed?

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RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 7:02:14 PM

jackharry

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I appreciate the difficulties you must have in balancing creating the "perfect" game while also ensuring playability, I am sure it is very difficult, and I understand the logic in not having a WIE scale for a global map.

I think you were right in saying that maybe we have all just gotten used to the WIE scale and it will just take a few games to get used to and re-adjust to a smaller map again.

Thanks again for a truly tremendous series of games and for all that you do

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Post #: 57

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 7:11:18 PM

battlevonwar

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Didn't know the project would be finished so quickly. If I am up to it I will buy and try the game. Europe was massive and the 5-10 games I played took forever... There is nothing wrong with that for me as I found that very enjoyable but that in worldwide map possibly take 6 months to a year to finish...

I am not sure what the finished product is though will keep reading and writing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jackharry

Hubert, thanks for the response. I was just wondering was there any particular reason to revert to a smaller map than was used in the previous "Global" game ie AOD? It just seems a backwards step

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Post #: 58

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 8:56:46 PM

Numdydar

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

quote:

It is really your fault though, as you spoilt us with the WIE map.

Thank you and for sure the War in Europe map is special and it of course works incredibly well at that scale as a stand alone game, no arguments there .

However, when considering scale for the Global release, if we were to keep that scale, and roughly assuming that the War in Europe map represents a quarter of the world map, that would put it at approximately 536x276. This would almost quadruple the number of playable hexes to around 148,000 hexes which makes for an absolutely massive map.

Some WiE games at their peak have nearly 400 total units on the map, and if we approximately double that to represent the entire world you are looking at your peak somewhere near 400 to 500 units per side.

Again, adding in the dead areas of the map, the number of units, the likely need for transit loops as well as the increase in the time it would take to play out a turn (multiplayer or vs the AI) we had to seriously question the playability of a game at that scale.

It's not to say that some would still enjoy that, clearly from the responses here some definitely would, but we had to think hard to find the right sweet spot that would ensure playability across the multiplayer and AI spectrum.

For example we already had one negative Steam review because AI turns, with our current map scale, took up to 2 minutes to play out, and I can only imagine the feeling if an AI turn took significantly longer due to a much larger map at the desired scale.

For example, at 400 units per side late in the game, with combat and movement animations turned on, and assuming a 3 second average per unit for all movement and combat you'd be looking at AI turns of 20 minutes at a minimum. Human turns would probably take 3 times as long if you were lucky.

Those are serious concerns of playability we unfortunately had to consider.

I would not have any issue with a larger map

- Having transit boxes. No one complains about them in War in the Pacific

- The AI taking longer turns
- Having to move 3-4 times as many units. Most of the people who buy these games also play games that have a ton of more units that this one would have.
- Even just cutting off large portions of the map. All of the Northern hemisphere comes to mind. Just have a box to represent the US

But a lot of your decisions about the game, unfortunately from my point of view, is catering to the MP crowd. While I do enjoy MP at times, I'd much rather have a larger game (and smaller times scale

) than what we have now.

So start working on making the game bigger so we can throw more money at you

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Post #: 59

RE: Difference in Scale Between the Two Games - 12/10/2018 10:03:15 PM

Keenan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hi Jackharry,

I hesitated to fully respond on this as I was unfortunately out of town this weekend and away from my computer so I could not give more definitive responses without being able to check the details first hand between the two games.

So that being said, and after looking at what we've got more closely, is it not really all that close to AoD, if not perhaps in many cases a better scale with WaW?

For example:

AoD (France) -> width X height 11 x 13 (along Paris)
WaW (France) -> width X height 16 x 14 (along Paris)

AoD (Poland) -> width X height 12 x 5 (along Warsaw)
WaW (Poland) -> width X height 13 x 7 (along Warsaw)

AoD (China) -> width X height 15 x 28 (along Chungking)
WaW (China) -> width X height 21 x 19 (along Chungking)

AoD (Germany) -> width X height 7 x 12 (along Berlin)
WaW (Germany) -> width X height 10 x 13 (along Berlin)

AoD (USSR) -> width X height 29 x 38 (along Moscow as wide as to Sverdlovsk)
WaW (USSR) -> width X height 39 x 41 (along Moscow as wide as to Sverdlovsk)

Even looking at Italy, in most points in AoD, Italy is only 2 tiles wide, while in WaW it is 3 hexes wide and so on.

Hubert

Hi Hubert,

first let me mention that I enjoy WaW in the same way I have been enjoying all instances of your game engine since the initial SC2. The engine and the moddability via editor are outstanding. So thanks for providing the basis for hours and hours of enjoyable game sessions!

In contrast to your indications above, I still had the feeling the Pacific theatre is a bit cramped. (Feels indeed a lot less like it for Europe.) So I did the following comparisons.
If I look at China east of the line Paotow-Yulir-Yenan-Lanchow-Kunming-Wanting (this is where most of the action happens and all/all but one of the initial land/air units are placed in the 1939 scenario), a quick count (I could easily be wrong by 10 or 20 tiles - hope it is not more than that

) resulted in the following numbers:

WaW: 266 tiles - 59 units
AoD: 603 tiles - 78 units

So we are talking about roundabout half of the tiles but still 75% of the units. So its no wonder that for some it feels a bit more condensed. I did not do the math for the Pacific Ocean but since Indonesia and Australia moved a tad north/north-west on the mini map, I would not be surprised if the effect for some parts of the Pacific would be similar to mainland China results.

I`m still playing - and very much enjoying - my very first game (mid 1941), so I cannot tell much about the overall impact. (By the way, I particularly like the toning down of research breakthroughs - less extreme randomness.)

Absolutely no reason not to like/buy the new game. Just wanted to mention that imho the math partially matches the gut feeling of some guys aiming to move on from SC2 AoD.

< Message edited by Keenan -- 12/10/2018 10:09:45 PM >

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