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The Ole' In & Out - 12/13/2018 11:44:13 AM

ArmouredLion

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Love this game--really-- but I stuggle with frustration when a half dozen or more unit do the ole' Panzer General 'pop in and out' and a good unit is destroyed. I understand that solid tactics and not exposing a unit is key--working on that, but the same can be done with airpower... and worse yet in combination. Nothing can survive and good ole in and out combo of air and land... then there's sea to. Nason showed me that on my 1st game. It's standard tactics in all turn-based games, but it seems too accentuated in this one. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathing water when the baby is so nice. Just from a 'realism' standpoint, it drives me nuts. Combat is supposed to take time and when so many can attack and destroy a single unit while all the friendlies stand idle and watch with a box of popcorn it's frustrating. Can anyone play tactic psychologist with thoughts, wisdom, or a mod that limits airpower strength or movement after an attack to limit popping in and out? Or is it just unavoidable and I just need to pull up my big boy pants and accept it?

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/13/2018 1:46:05 PM

PvtBenjamin

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I intend this with the utmost respect. I played SC extensively vs the AI in prior versions and primarily play PBEM in this version. Early in my PBEM play I was frustrated with many aspects of the game, as I have improved I've found most of the game works very well. Is there still room for improvement sure, but the game works very well.

The beauty of the game is its very easy to pick up and very hard to master.

Stick with it when you get a PBEM game against a comparable opponent it spectacular.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/13/2018 2:19:46 PM

ArmouredLion

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No sweat, brother... I don't get offended easily... a bit callous and a bit oblivious. Thanks for your thoughts-really. I play ATG and TOAW mostly, so my mind is centered on those tactics (strong front and break through reactionary force on defense). I do play Order of Battle and played Paner General back in the day... so I get the one unit a hex in and out thing. But in ATG & ect you can create strong points and mostly prevent 1 turn liquidation even if they are defeated. I haven't found the 'secret' in this game yet... working on not fitting SC in the box of other games mechanics... or what I want. AI isn't a problem. I win do pretty well there... it's those damn smart people that are. Had a guy job me using 3 battleships, 2 carriers, 2 infantry and two tanks-- in and out style--on my PZ3 in Africa. I was sad... It had just received a new paint job. So is flexible front or strong points the response in this game? It seems like strong points can be broken. Do you pull back a hex and let them come so it limits the number of in and outs and they need to blitz attack? I understand that each situation creates unique tactics, but in games, there are no-nos. I'm feeling strong point defense might be one of them. In Europe, I do better with space... tight space though it seems sticky. I agree I need to bone up and buck up... likely much in both. Just trying to figure it out with some wisdom from abroad. Thanks...

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/13/2018 2:29:45 PM

Markiss

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I know that the visual effect can be annoying, but what you are really seeing is the concentration of force against an objective.
In the real world, defenders have to cover a certain amount of territory to prevent themselves from being out-flanked. They have the advantage of preparing the ground they are going to fight on, hence the game effect of entrenchments and defensive bonuses for terrain.
Attackers, in the real world, try to concentrate as many units on a small front as they can, to overcome the defenders advantages and breakthrough. This game does not allow the stacking of units in a single hex, so in order to achieve that effect, during your turn you can rotate units in and out of the hex the attack is being launched from.
It is just a game mechanic used to approximate reality, don't let it bother you too much.
As far as other units not being able to react during the attack, that is part of the limitations of a turn-based game. To overcome this problem as a defender, try to keep units behind your main line in strategic positions to help block any breakthroughs. Easier said than done, but if your line is thin in the real world, you are vulnerable to breakthroughs as well. Defense-in-depth works best, if you have the units.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/13/2018 2:52:58 PM

PvtBenjamin

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A few things

1) The game is similar to Panzer General's leader aspect w/HQ's, except it is for more units. HQ's are probably the most important part to the game. Make sure the HQ's are attached to the important units, and you can upgrade the HQ's which is key. Try to have an HQ dedicated to just air units.

2) Concentrate on understanding supply, readiness, experience & terrain. Sure you do basic wargamer concepts.

3) Understand US/USSR mobilization (there are many decisions, there is post by Spz somewhere that lays all of them out) and invest in Industrial Production early & often.

4) Always search the seas with subs and Maritime bombers are great units.

gl

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/13/2018 2:59:28 PM

sPzAbt653

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Hi Mike - glad to see you are enjoying noodling thru the 'in's and out's' of the game! For my opinion, I felt that Air Units were too powerful vs. Ground Targets, so in the 653N Mod the Air Unit effectiveness against Ground Units has been reduced. But that doesn't help you in the stock campaigns, so:
As far as defending against the game mechanics, my M.O. is to not lose units [the heart of winning the game], so there should always be one or more reserve units ready for use [with the Operate feature this is not difficult] and if my position is such that I will lose a unit then I have to relocate to a better position. Even if this means giving up valuable territory, we still need to win the war by losing a battle

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/13/2018 6:41:13 PM

BillRunacre

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Seeing this has given me a thought that could potentially work, but would require a lot of testing:

1) Increase the Prepared Attack Bonus significantly.
2) Increase unit defense factors so that units attacking with the above are no better off than before.

These changes would have the effect of reducing the effectiveness of attacks by units that have moved, e.g. those doing the "the Ole' In & Out " as you put it.

Whether this is a route we should go down is another matter, but as this thread gave me these thoughts I thought I'd post them so you can also have a think about this as a solution and even try them out in a mod if you wish as it requires no engine changes.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/13/2018 9:24:03 PM

Taxman66

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Bill,

How about approaching it from a different direction

Possible suggestions:
Land units without the mobilization upgrade can Attack & Move, or Move & Attack, but may not Move, Attack & Move.
Land units with mobilization upgrades may Move, Attack & Move.
Reduce or remove Germany's mobilization upgrade penalty.

Something still needs to be done about naval units though. Not exactly sure what, but the ability of naval units to snake their way through any open square to attack enemy ships that should have higher protection (e.g. CV & Transports) is just obscene.
Maybe a more powerful ZOC for ships? Though it would have to be written to prevent offensive movement through ZOC, but allow fleeing from enemy ships?
Another possibility: Any ship trying to move out of a enemy naval ZOC hex into another enemy naval ZOC hex (even if projected from the same ship) is engaged/attacked by one of the naval units (preferably the one with the best odds).

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/13/2018 9:57:38 PM

ArmouredLion

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Thanks, Markiss. I get the limitations (I'm trying at least), but when you can attack with soooo many units in one turn on a single hex and evaporate any unit no matter how entrenched it's a bit... frustrating. It is what it is, but for me, at a certain point it breaks the trance. The other turnbased games I play the breakthroughs and such happen when a line is thin or suffered attrition or hasn't been properly defended. ATG for example has a Stack Attack limit. When you attack over that amount with more troops the benefits of extra troops plummets and the attacker's casualties rise. Again, the game is beautiful and the streamlined nature of it is refreshing from some of the other games I play. Add in the diplomacy, events, and grand stage it's very, very fun times. But when you can fly in 3-4 bombers, and 3-4 other infantry units and disintegrate a whole entrenched army in a week when a whole long front is there... I develop a deep love for my digital soldiers and hate seeing them die so quickly. I can see being attacked from more than one side... but the battle is supposed to rage for the entire turn, so the 1st unit attacking popping out and then 2-3 more popping and out... well you know. I'm trying to buck up and build a battle doctrine, but my damn OCD is kicking me in the nether region... both sides are subject to the rules, so I'm trying to adapt. Thanks, sir.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/13/2018 10:02:04 PM

ArmouredLion

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Thanks, brother... yeah the flexible front, when you can, seems the best idea. Don't get me wrong, I've screwed up too with my placement... but other times I was snug as a bug in the rug... until I got the in and out surprise. I too think the airpower is too much. Reducing readiness and entrenchment on infantry, but casualties at that level seems high. I can understand armor getting the dam from the air. I'm trying to figure out how too add modes now... in the meantime, I'm trying to absorb the wisdom to save my beloved soldiers. Thanks, brother.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/13/2018 10:11:05 PM

ArmouredLion

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That sounds good, Bill.
My two cents would be you need to maneuver the flanking hexes to get extra units attacking. Maybe attacks use up all the movement or retreats are more likely. That's the thing units with retreat options would flee and not be destroyed. I do think if prepared attacks were higher and the ole in and out was lessened that artillery would be more needed to weaken before the attack and even the effects of airpower wouldn't be so brutal because it wouldn't be followed up by a half dozen units. This might force the weakening of an entire front rather than a single hex obliteration.

I don't know. I'm just trying to keep my arse from being handed to me and my brains from being scrambled when my favorite units get nuked. I hate when my favs get nuked... :(

Thanks for the reply, brother.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/13/2018 10:15:16 PM

ArmouredLion

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Considering the expense of the mobility upgrade that sounds like a smart and easy fix...Taxman.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/13/2018 11:55:56 PM

Markiss

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One thing that may give you some solace is that when your opponent uses 3-4 bombers on one unit, he almost certainly make a mistake, at least against the Soviets. It is well known that you need to kill 4-5 units per turn against the them(as that is how many they are building, at least). If your opponent used almost his entire air force to kill one unit, you almost certainly came out ahead that turn. Too many turns like that, and the Soviet unit count starts to skyrocket, leading to inevitable doom.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/14/2018 12:21:16 AM

ArmouredLion

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That's good info... Thanks. I guess mourning the brave soldiers battle lost, in that case, is good for winning the war... I tend to take a mirco view maybe too much. I keep my eye on this in the game I'm playing, Markiss.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/14/2018 2:23:56 AM

Sugar

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So if I understand correctly, you'd like a WW2 game with impenetratable frontiers, because you hate losing units, no matter the effort the attacker conducts? That`s not what Blitzkrieg was about imho.

And sorry to say Bill, but your thoughts will terminate the rest of operational manouevre warfare this game offers.

If you'd take a view from the other side, the effort the attacker needs to destroy a single unit is already so high against capable opponents, that he needs so many attacks. Fortifications, terrain boni, arty and AA in the second row, ZoC are all working already in favor of the defender.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/14/2018 11:00:41 AM

PvtBenjamin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

So if I understand correctly, you'd like a WW2 game with impenetratable frontiers, because you hate losing units, no matter the effort the attacker conducts? That`s not what Blitzkrieg was about imho.

And sorry to say Bill, but your thoughts will terminate the rest of operational manouevre warfare this game offers.

If you'd take a view from the other side, the effort the attacker needs to destroy a single unit is already so high against capable opponents, that he needs so many attacks. Fortifications, terrain boni, arty and AA in the second row, ZoC are all working already in favor of the defender.

I agree with Sugar here.

It took me a while to realize this but a deep understanding of the mechanics of the game will alleviate many of the issues mentioned above. When you play a highly seasoned player they have no problem taking out units.

The air power may be a little to strong (mainly because of grouping) , once the defender attaches air/AA to high level HQs and researches AA to lv 3-5 the air power differential will be reduced.

I do have an issue with the strength of 0 (especially experienced) supply land units which it looks like 1.16 is addressing.

< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 12/14/2018 11:02:51 AM >

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/14/2018 11:42:47 AM

sPzAbt653

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Also agree that nothing need be done except to reduce Air Unit effectiveness against ground units [Air Strikes cause too many losses to Ground Units].
The Naval game requires Air Interdiction and until that is a factor everything else is a fudge, in my opinion.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/14/2018 11:49:48 AM

ArmouredLion

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Isn't sugar is supposed to be sweet?

No. That's not what I'm saying. IF you have played other turn-based games WW2 games or read WW history you get it. And this isn't about blitzkrieg (war of movement). Blitzkrieg (mech units) would bypass strong points not destroy them and use them as the penetration point and springboard for the breakthrough.

I get it you are the best player here and you feel I'm attacking your beloved game and possibly past accomplishments. That's not the case. Just offering an opinion, trying to figure it out and I even qualified my thoughts many times to say 'maybe I'm wrong', 'the game is great' and such to not sound offensive. Guess I missed the mark. Sorry, I hurt your feelings... I'll be more delicate next time.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/14/2018 11:54:26 AM

ArmouredLion

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Was just asking questions and shooting the breeze. Taking units out wasn't my question... but creating strong points and seeing if it was just best to pull back rather than hold strong. It did bother me to see soo many units come in and out on a single unit and obliterate it. In history, this only really happened in encirclement and not from frontal charges... it's a game, so I need to adjust, it appears. Not here to cause wave just trying to get advice and chat, brother.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/14/2018 12:01:42 PM

ArmouredLion

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Wasn't trying to create a fuss. Was just trying to figure out the finer details of tactics. While the ole' in and out does both me, every games has issues...

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/14/2018 12:11:55 PM

PvtBenjamin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Also agree that nothing need be done except to reduce Air Unit effectiveness against ground units [Air Strikes cause too many losses to Ground Units].
The Naval game requires Air Interdiction and until that is a factor everything else is a fudge, in my opinion.

Also agreed. On air power I've suggested allowing land units (especially AA) to go to lv 3 AA maybe, never been a fan of no limits on placement but have learned to adjust.

The Naval game still needs some work.

No fuss Lion good to debate.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/14/2018 2:32:26 PM

nnason

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All,
Hairog is working on a major naval mod. He needs testers. If it works out maybe will be incorporated into the basic game.

I think solution to multiple attacks on same point is to have flanking defensive units so only can attack at one or two hexes.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/14/2018 4:09:45 PM

ArmouredLion

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quote:

I know that the visual effect can be annoying, but what you are really seeing is the concentration of force against an objective.

Markiss brought me solace with this. It's a great point... from an aesthetic viewpoint.

I had my 1st human game (and beat down) by you, sir. So you know my feelings well. It is what it is. I think the battle should be considered to last through the turn and only one unit should be able to attack per hex with maybe tanks and mechs being the exception to pull in and out. I do think artillery is undervalued in this game because of the ole' in and out...BUT, that's not the case... and as sugar said maybe that would wreak the larger framework. I'll adapt and close my eyes on the replays so I won't be offended :).

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/14/2018 9:06:59 PM

El Condoro

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I have enjoyed this post and ideas. Mine is just to limit the number of times a single unit can be attacked in a turn and perhaps vary it for unit type (2 air, 2 land, 1 sea?). I am not sure what that involves from a coding PoV or gameplay/balance. Just a thought...

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/14/2018 11:23:08 PM

ivanov

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I don't think that introducing penalties for the mobile attacks sounds right within the framework of the WW2 warfare. The real problem is, that the combat in general is too bloody ( not only the air attacks ) and allows to completely wipe out the enemy units. Complete annihilation may be satisfying for the casual gamers, who like to see the tangible results of their actions, but it's not realistic. Realistically, you should only be able to completely destroy units that are surrounded and cut off from the supply. Otherwise the units should suffer loses and retreat, even if their strength is down to 20-30%. Given the scale and the turn length, such a weakened units should be able to recover some portion of their effectiveness and strength almost immediately, but it should take few turns of rest and refit to rebuilt them to "100%". It would underscore the need of maintaining the reserve, but from the other hand, players wouldn't face the situation, when they completely run out of the units for few turns.

Another problem with the combat system is, that if the attack is conducted competently, the attacker may not suffer any loses at all. That's also unrealistic. For example during the first month of Barbarossa, the highly successful German panzer groups already suffered up to 30-40% loss ratio in tanks and other vehicles, mainly due to the wear and tear and poor ( often non existent ) Soviet roads.

All the proposals listed above have something to them, but they would have a dramatic impact on the gameplay and it's tempo ( for example limiting the number of attacks against a unit per turn ).

For now, the best tactic is to screen your most valuable units with the corps. Corps are great in absorbing the damage and they have relatively good staying power in relation to their cost.

< Message edited by ivanov -- 12/14/2018 11:42:54 PM >

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/15/2018 12:00:40 AM

ArmouredLion

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I agree with your thoughts. That's what shocked me was unit obliteration. There's no real way to avoid it by holding strong...sacrificial lambs and pulling back seems the best tactic to protect your favs. Maybe even something where units flee upon massive damage? Fleeing is, for the most part, the 1st move before annihilation. I think the readiness level considers the wear and tear. But I think I'll adopt your tactic along with relinquishing territory rather than stand and be obliterated.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/15/2018 3:40:25 AM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

limit the number of times a single unit can be attacked in a turn

I had tried Commander: Europe at War prior to finding Strategic Command and CEaW uses a limit as you suggest. I don't know if it is better or not, but for my opinion I was glad when I got SC3 and saw no such limit. 'Realistic' or not, such a limit made planning each turn unnecessarily tedious, in my opinion.

quote:

Maybe even something where units flee upon massive damage?

There is a Retreat mechanic in the game, but it only occurs a percentage of the time. Some might like to see it happen more often, others are happy the way it is.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/15/2018 4:46:58 AM

James Taylor

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First of all, units are not obliterated unless their supply is <5. A cadre survives to be rebuilt voluntarily by the owner at a reduced MPP cost.

Secondly, as AL mentioned above, it is advisable to pay attention to your units' morale and readiness. When said units have endured repeated attacks, even after being reinforced back to max strength, their M & R does not recover appreciably.

Just like IRL, they need to be pulled back into a position of high supply and attached to an HQ to hasten their recovery(rest, reorganization and training green replacements). If you leave a unit on the frontline with low M & R it is ripe for decimation, no matter the entrenchment level.

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/15/2018 5:02:32 AM

Markiss

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I just want to point out that units that are "obliterated" are not really obliterated, unless they are at less than supply 5. You will notice that killed units that were at least supply 5 when they were "obliterated" show back up in the list of units that can be purchased. Not only that, but you will also notice that they have an asterisk by them, and that they cost much less than other units to purchase, and arrive much faster than units that are being purchased "fresh". This is because remnants of these units still exist, and these remnants are used as the basis around which the unit is reconstituted. Add a few replacements, and it is as good as new.
So your fav units are not really destroyed, they are just reduced to the point that they are no longer combat effective, and can be "fixed" and returned to combat. No reason to morn their loss, they will be back, probably teched up better than ever.
Of course, if they were at a supply of less than 5, then not enough of them could be saved to be called the same unit anymore. The survivors will be used as elite replacements for other units, still living on to fight another day.
So don't be too sentimental about them, they live on either way.
Darn it, Seamonkey was too fast for me, and I type slow. I hate that. I thought I was safe this time of night, go to bed, darn it!! You stop to make one lousy drink...

< Message edited by Markiss -- 12/15/2018 5:29:50 AM >

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RE: The Ole' In & Out - 12/15/2018 9:35:35 AM

MVokt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I had tried Commander: Europe at War prior to finding Strategic Command and CEaW uses a limit as you suggest. I don't know if it is better or not, but for my opinion I was glad when I got SC3 and saw no such limit. 'Realistic' or not, such a limit made planning each turn unnecessarily tedious, in my opinion.

CEAW has a 2 air attacks per hex limitation. Land units have not such limitation. Air units attacks limit much reduced some of the unrealistic things that CEAW had since, before that limitation was set, you were able to wipe out a full strength land or air unit in a single turn only by using air units.

Maybe a similar thing could be done here. To set a limit for air units but to keep things as is regarding land units. I say this because the no stacking limitation both in CEAW and SC WIE would somehow justify the fact that a land unit within a hex can be attacked multiple times.

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