Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Armored division with old equipment, for the 4th, 6th, 7th, and 10th Divisions. Probably need to add trucks so supply flows well.

Cheers

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

My one source previously photo'd above has additional corps Art Rgts for 1977:

I Corps, 17 RA 155 (?), 19 RA 155 (?)
II Corps, 24 RA 155 (Reutlingen)
III Corps, 8 RA 155 (Commercy), 16 RA 155 (?), 3 RA RAM 155 (Vernon)

What does your source show for these? Let me know what you find.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

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ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Infantry Division.

Cheers

Cathar, this Infantry unit is really slimmed down. The x70 jeeps look suspicious? In game terms the jeep is a recon vehicle that greatly adds to recon %. Can you re-verify that? Was there any other APC's?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

On to two more orbat issues:

1) In the original scenario, the West German Jager Divisions (2nd and 4th) are composed of Panzer and Grenadier brigades and the divisions were designated as such. However, I found that from 1974-1980 they were true Jager's. Does anyone know what the equipment would be? My guess is they might be closer to the Mountaineer Div during this time frame.(x2 Mtn Bdes, x1 PG bde).

2) The West German reserves (Territorial Command) is paramount, yet I've found very little in Orbats for the 1979 time period. One source lists it as more of a security force for behind the lines, and that it did not become a more structured reserve force until 1982. Is this true?

If anyone can point me in the right direction on these issues, I would be much obliged.

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The Territorial Army's combat units are of three sorts: (a) Home Defence Groups (Heimatschutzkommandos), of which one is in existence or planned for Military Districts II - VI (all have now been formed); (b) light infantry battalions (Jägerbataillone), of which 21 are in existence or planned for the Defence Regions; and (c) Security Companies (Sicherungskompanie), of which 300 are planned for or are in existence in the Defense sub-regions. The Home Defence Groups are effectively very lightly equipped infantry brigades of two motorised infantry battalions, one engineer battalion, one anti-tank company, and one very heavy mortar company, numbers which can be doubled in emergency by the call-up of recruits; in peace, each contains about 2500 men, of whom all but 15% are conscripts undergoing training. The light infantry battalions of the Defence Regions have a permanent cadre but are manned by reservists, who do 14 days annual training; the battalions are motorised but would requisition most of their vehicles from civilian sources. The Security Companies of the Defence Sub-regions are entirely reservist in composition and based in areas where the reservists live.

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Each Heimatschütz Jaeger Battalion had three Jaeger companies described much as you mention – four platoons, with a support platoon that usually contained a pair of FK-20 or FK-20-2 20mm AA guns and a 106mm recoilless rifle or two (as well as 48 tripod-mounted machine guns, one per squad). Each Heimatschütz Regiment (of two battalions) also had a 120mm mortar company and a Kanonejagdpanzer Platoon of six vehicles.

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There's Jaeger and there's Jaeger and there's Jaeger…
There were also 'Heavy' Jaeger Battalions. Each West German division had one and its role was that of mobile infantry reserve and rear-area/convoy escort. A 'Heavy' Jaeger Battalion had three companies organised as above. Each battalion had three Jaeger Companies and a 120mm Panzer-Mortar Company (as for Panzer-Grenadier Battalions).

As mentioned above, 'pure' Panzer-Grenadier Battalions had Jaeger Companies. These were organised as described above: three platoons, each with three sections and mounted in three M113s. CHQ with a single M113. No reserve section or support platoon. Note: 27 tripod mounted MG's per battalion, one per rifle squad.

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M113 PGr Platoon:
Each platoon has 3x M113, 3 nine-man sections, each section has 1 MG3 and 1
Milan-1. In theory each also section also had a Carl Gustav firing
illumination rounds only, but these were generally left in barracks. Each
Pz Gr battalion has 63 disposable LAW (M72A1 or Pzf-44) which would equate
to 2 per section, assuming HQs and the mortar company had some.

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three [mech] infantry battalions, a tank destroyer battalion [32 Kanonepanzerjaeger and 8 Raketen-Panzerjaeger vehicles], and one artillery battalion (18 155mm SP howitzers)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

My one source previously photo'd above has additional corps Art Rgts for 1977:

I Corps, 17 RA 155 (?), 19 RA 155 (?)
II Corps, 24 RA 155 (Reutlingen)
III Corps, 8 RA 155 (Commercy), 16 RA 155 (?), 3 RA RAM 155 (Vernon)

What does your source show for these? Let me know what you find.

From my notes above --
19e RA at Draguignan with 14th Infantry Division.
8e RA at Commercy with 4th Armored Division.
16e RA at Chaumont with III Corps, assumed to be an artillery observation battalion, but only an assumption
3e RAMa at Vernon with 12th Infantry Division

Others --
17e RA -- assigned to territorial forces, located at Biscarrosse, but was an air defense regiment from 1970 forward. Equipped with 40mm AA guns, it supported the missile testing facility at Landes.

24e RA -- an antiaircraft group in the immediate postwar era, not reformed as an artillery regiment until mid-1981 and subordinated to 5th Armored Division.

Cheers

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sorry to doubt you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

German Wikipedia brings out something interesting about the Jaeger Brigades in the 2nd and 4th Divisions. They had three Jaeger battalions, but one was equipment at a depot and would have to be filled out with reservists.

Cheers

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

German Wikipedia brings out something interesting about the Jaeger Brigades in the 2nd and 4th Divisions. They had three Jaeger battalions, but one was equipment at a depot and would have to be filled out with reservists.

Cheers

The TO&E for these units will prove interesting. I'm assuming the Div's should be lighter than the other Panzer and Pzr Gren units, yet with armored/mech elements.

As for the Terr Army, I need to get this right, since with the presumed massive Soviet penetration, it will be these units that will be the second line in WGer. The current game has them attached as reserve bde's to the x3 Corps (iirc x6-8 per corp). I may leave them here, yet some sources suggest they had their own divisional/corp structure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

On to two more orbat issues:

1) In the original scenario, the West German Jager Divisions (2nd and 4th) are composed of Panzer and Grenadier brigades and the divisions were designated as such. However, I found that from 1974-1980 they were true Jager's. Does anyone know what the equipment would be? My guess is they might be closer to the Mountaineer Div during this time frame.(x2 Mtn Bdes, x1 PG bde).

2) The West German reserves (Territorial Command) is paramount, yet I've found very little in Orbats for the 1979 time period. One source lists it as more of a security force for behind the lines, and that it did not become a more structured reserve force until 1982. Is this true?

If anyone can point me in the right direction on these issues, I would be much obliged.

I'll dig into this. I can say authoritatively the Jäger's for the 2nd and 4th Divisions were not mountain infantry. German Jäger organization, completely beyond the mountain and airborne infantry, was multi-faceted. There were these guys, plus each division had a Jäger battalion as light infantry dedicated to rear-area combat operations. Beyond even that, there were Jäger units in the reserve that were local defense units. Some were motorized, others had M113 APCs. I'll get back to you with more information. Ditto for the territorial forces.

On territorial forces, from Keegan's "World Armies" (published 1979).

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The Territorial Army's combat units are of three sorts: (a) Home Defence Groups (Heimatschutzkommandos), of which one is in existence or planned for Military Districts II - VI (all have now been formed); (b) light infantry battalions (Jägerbataillone), of which 21 are in existence or planned for the Defence Regions; and (c) Security Companies (Sicherungskompanie), of which 300 are planned for or are in existence in the Defense sub-regions. The Home Defence Groups are effectively very lightly equipped infantry brigades of two motorised infantry battalions, one engineer battalion, one anti-tank company, and one very heavy mortar company, numbers which can be doubled in emergency by the call-up of recruits; in peace, each contains about 2500 men, of whom all but 15% are conscripts undergoing training. The light infantry battalions of the Defence Regions have a permanent cadre but are manned by reservists, who do 14 days annual training; the battalions are motorised but would requisition most of their vehicles from civilian sources. The Security Companies of the Defence Sub-regions are entirely reservist in composition and based in areas where the reservists live.

Cheers

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The plan was for the 2nd and 4th Jaeger Divisions to have two Jaeger brigades and a Panzer brigade.

The reorganization actually took place like this:

4th PG Division was retitled as the 4th Jaeger Division with Jaeger Brigades 10 and 11, as well as Panzer Brigade 12.
Brigade 10 (at Weiden) with battalions 101 and 102; 103 was equipment only.
Brigade 11 (at Bogen) with battalions 112 and 113; 111 was equipment only.

2nd PG Division was retitled as the 2nd Jaeger Division with Jaeger Brigade 4, Panzergrenadier Brigade 5, and Panzer Brigade 6. The planned transformation of Panzergrenadier Brigade 5 into a Jaeger brigade did not take place.
Brigade 4 (at Göttingen) with battalions 41 and 42; 43 was equipment only.

Additionally, Panzergrenadier Brigades 16 and 17 of the 6th PG Division were assigned Jaeger Battalions 162 and 172...

Organization:

The Jaeger battalions of the regular army were all of Type JgBtl B3 with the following organization:
1st Headquarters and Headquarters Company
2nd Jaeger Company (four platoons mounted in M113s)
3rd and 4th Jaeger Companies (four platoons mounted in trucks)
5th (heavy) company with infantry fighting vehicles (10 vehicles), armored mortar platoon (6 mortars), and an armored ATGM platoon (with six COBRA)

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This is from Fire and Fury. Does this compare w/Keegan? {edit] the other Commands are also listed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

W German territorial forces: Besides the 12 HSK regiments, these Jaeger battalions existed in 1979.

JgBtl 714 Eutin 1971 – 1987
JgBtl 724 Bremerhaven 1974 – 1979, then Bremen until 1981
JgBtl 742 Koblenz 1970 – 1982
JgBtl 752 Oftersheim 1970 – 2006
JgBtl 762 Neubrunn 1971 – 1976
JgBtl 763 Regensburg 1975 – 1981

Structure was 48 assault rifle AT+ squads, 48 medium MG, eight 120mm mortar, seven 20mm AA gun, and six 106mm recoilless per battalion.

Cheers

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

I'm nearing the finish with the W.Ger Terr Army reserves, but still have a few nagging concerns. For example, a source shows that by 1981-82, WGer had 1200 M-48 Pattons. I wonder if some (or most) of them would show up in these Territory units? Does Keegan account for these?:

German Army Formations [1981-82]
• 6 Tank Divisions (Panzerdivisionen)
• 4 Armored Infantry Divisions (Panzergrenadierdivisionen)
• 1 Mountain Division (Gebirgsdivision)
• 6 Home Defense Tank Brigades (Heimatschutz – Panzerbrigaden)
• 6 Home Defense Armored Infantry Brigades (Heimatschutz – Panzergrenadierbrigaden (not complete)

Number of tanks[1]
MBTs

1,200 M48 A2C/A2GA2
2,737 Leopard 1 A2/A3/A4/A5/A6/1A1A1
1350 Leopard 2
770 Kanonenjagdpanzer
350 Raketenjagdpanzer

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Ab 1978 wurden 650 M48A2C der Bundeswehr mit der 105-mm-Kanone L7 des Kpz Leopard 1 und mit einer anderen Geschützblende ausgerüstet. Außerdem wurde die Kommandantenkuppel entfernt und durch den Winkelspiegelring des Brückenlegepanzers „Biber“ ersetzt. Zur Flugabwehr und zur Bekämpfung von Kleinzielen diente nunmehr das Maschinengewehr MG3. Ebenfalls umgerüstet wurde das Zielfernrohr zum passiven Nachtziel- und Beobachtungsgerät PZB 200.[8] Mit diesen Fahrzeugen wurden die Panzerbataillone der 2. und 4. Jägerdivision (Kassel bzw. Regensburg) und einige der teilmobilen Panzerbataillone der Heimatschutztruppe ausgestattet. Nach der Umwandlung der Jägerdivisionen in Panzergrenadierdivisionen erhielten diese ebenfalls den Kampfpanzer Leopard 2. Die M48A2GA2 wurden den teilmobilen und nichtaktiven Panzerbataillonen des Territorialheeres zugewiesen, wo sie, auch noch solche vom Typ M48A2C, bis zur Auflösung dieser Verbände (etwa 1993) verwendet wurden.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

I'm seeing the M48 battalions appear in the Territorial Army from the early 1980s forward. Some other bits.

Heimatschützregiment -- the 7 Jagdpanzers and 18 120mm mortars in the HQ Company. Each subordinate battalion has seven of the 20mm AA guns.

If as an option, you wish to show M48 battalions in the Territorial Army, they were organized with 41 M48A2GA2 (the German 105mm version).

There is a lot that could be researched here. I have a complete list of the Territorial Army for 1989 and can look up units in the database of the German Military History Directorate. That is where I found the Panzer battalions appearing in the 1980s. Big project, though. You can see the volume I mention at:

https://www.relikte.com/_basis/docs/bw_2_2-4.pdf

Cheers

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a reasonable design decision

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This is a significant reduction from the original game. 1980's orbats of F&F list District Defence Commands (‘VBK’), rgt-sized units, all rifled, that resemble militia (?). I'm still trying to identify these units, if they existed in the 1970's.

I Corps

	FlgAbt 101	48 UH-1		Fassberg
	FlgAbt 151	32 CH-53	Rheine-Bentlage
	FlgAbt 161	56 Bo-105/ATGM	Celle

	ArtBtl 110	18 ea 105mm howitzer		Dülmen
	ArtBtl 120	18 ea 155mm howitzer M114	Unna
	ArtBtl 130	18 ea 105mm howitzer		Unna
	RakArtBtl 150	13 ea 20mm AA Gun, 6 LANCE missiles	Wesel
	SichBtl 100	Attached light infantry battalion to protect the LANCE missiles

	Pionier Kommando 1 (PiKdo 1)			Münster
			4 Engineer Battalions
			1 Amph Engineer Battalion
			2 Bridging Battalions

II Corps

	FlgAbt 201	48 UH-1		Neuhausen ob Eck
	FlgAbt 251	32 CH-53	Laupheim
	FlgAbt 261	56 Bo-105/ATGM	Roth

	ArtBtl 210	18 ea 155mm howitzer M114	Philippsburg
	ArtBtl 220	18 ea 105mm howitzer		Oftersheim
	ArtBtl 230	18 ea 155mm howitzer M114	Friederichsthal
	RakArtBtl 250	13 ea 20mm AA Gun, 9 LANCE missiles	Engstingen
	SichBtl 200	Attached light infantry battalion to protect the LANCE missiles

	Pionier Kommando 2 (PiKdo 2)			Ulm
			4 Engineer Battalions
			1 Amph Engineer Battalion
			2 Bridging Battalions