2 day turns - thoughts and opinions

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2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/23/2018 1:17:34 PM

USSAmerica

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Hi all, I'm in the planning stages for a new PBEM match and we're considering 2 day turns. I had what I remember as a good experience with 2 day turns in a 2x2 game several years ago, but that game also didn't get past '42 so it's a small sample. I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are about using them.

My remembered experience is that it forces players to be more careful due to increased risk, this generally slows down the pace of operations in the game, but of course the game can make more progress relative to real time. I'm anticipating a slow turn pace of around 3-4 turns/week so the progress through the war is attractive to me.

I guess my biggest area of concern is how the Japanese players feel about 2 day turns through their expansion phase (I played the Allied side) and if there are any serious problems with using them in the late war. I've never had a game make it to the late war stages and really want this one to get there. I would really like to visit Japan in a game one day.

My opponent has never considered 2 day turns in the past and is agreeable to using them, but I don't want us to make a mistake and then regret it for the duration of our match if there is some significant issue that I'm not aware of.

Chickenboy and AW1Steve, I'm particularly interested in your thoughts and experience from when we played using them.

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/23/2018 1:28:57 PM

RogerJNeilson

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I thought that it was possible to switch between turn duration - I think its the Japanese player who makes the switch. If I am right then that would permit a swop if it was felt later it wasn't a good idea.

Roger

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/23/2018 2:03:14 PM

kbfchicago

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Based on prior posts around this topic 1 vs 2 day is almost as bad as Ginger vs Mary Ann. I'm a Mary Ann (I mean 2 day) guy. For my money it adds (significant) additional depth and complexity to the game. Helps better align the game closer to a simulation (which is important for me). Are there challenges? Yes. I believe those challenges equally impact both sides so there is not an inherent advantage for either side. 2 day cycle is the only way I will play.

At this point have certainly 100s if not +1000s of turns covering both sides, PBEM and AI, stock, DBBs, LST mods, games as late as 12/44, to inform my view.

Best wishes on getting into Japan, a PBEM goal I too would like to get reach as some point.

my 2 cents.

Kevin

(in reply to RogerJNeilson)

Post #: 3

RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/23/2018 2:27:52 PM

Uncivil Engineer

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I played about 10 months as Japan against the Allied AI using 2-day turns. My comments:

1) I learned to use TF pick-up of troops, rather than go to the port on day 1, then load the unit on day 2 (as is often the case for 1-day turns). Using pick-up at a nearby base you can often get there and start loading on day 1. When using pick-up I always set the TF to remain on station AND do not unload, because if it's a small unit it could load on day 1, then UNLOAD on day 2. The disadvantages to using pick-up are you can only load one unit per TF and, in my experience, the TF never docks, even if it could.

2) Be careful when aerial bombing enemy troops. If your ground attack on day one forces a retreat, your air units may now be attacking at extended range (so lower bomb load), or at a distance exceeding your escort's range, running into who knows what!

3) Likewise, if the LCU being attacked is destroyed on day 1, the bombers will find another target on day 2 (but your escorts will not), and 9 times out of 10 it's not one you would have picked!

4) Against the AI you play 2-day turns, but the AI plays 1-day turns, and cheats while doing it.

5) The Japanese player needs to be careful with aircraft research. If day 2 is the 1st of a month, newly researched aircraft will start production if not set correctly (ie. set to NO production). I would change to 1-day turns at the end of every month as an additional way to avoid production disasters.

6) And, obviously, atoll invasions and carrier operations in general will need special care.

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Post #: 4

RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/23/2018 3:53:56 PM

IdahoNYer

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Large Slow Target and I are in Feb '44 of our PBEM which is two day turns. We play a pretty relaxed schedule compared to some folks, with a couple of turns a week going back and forth, depending on our respective schedules. We started in Sep '14 I think....

I've enjoyed the two day turns - it does make you a bit more cautious and slow the tempo of operations down somewhat. It does induce "friction" a bit, as mentioned if a ground target isn't available, or you hit a CAP trap, you'll do it a second turn. From the Allied perspective the Japanese expansion sure seemed fast enough, and now in Feb '44 the two day turns make me think twice about risky operations, and paying more attention to synchronization. Failures can of course be twice as expensive!

Perhaps L_S_T will chime in here from his perspective on Japan, but I'm sure he's got some comments on his AAR.

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/23/2018 4:26:50 PM

USSAmerica

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Thanks for the feedback so far, guys! I've done a quick test and confirmed that in a PBEM you can NOT change back to 1 day turns from 2 day. You must only be able to do it in AI games.

Uncivil Engineer, your point #4 is one reason I like to use 2 day turns vs the AI. It really needs all the help it can get. Your point #5 is something I would have never considered, as I've only played the Allied side so far. I will be sure to point that out to my opponent so he can take it into consideration.

IdahoNYer, your impressions from the Allied side generally match my experience, and it's nice to know you have not run into anything unexpected in your game. I would love to get LST's Japanese side input as well!

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Post #: 6

RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/23/2018 9:13:35 PM

Chickenboy

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Hey USSMike,

WRT our 2x2 game, I had a number of issues with long-term suitability of gameplay, but none of them had anything to do with 2-day turns. It took some adjustment, but it was quite serviceable and the downsides were equally applied to both sides. I'd say 'go for it'.

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/23/2018 9:17:11 PM

Canoerebel

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I played two-day turns against Miller years ago. It was a lot of fun - almost a different game. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/23/2018 11:56:57 PM

USSAmerica

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Thanks, guys!

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Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/24/2018 1:12:59 AM

spence

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I've only played 2 day turns once and that was as the Allies. Although I have tried to entice various Japanese Players since they definitely seem to prefer the degree of control offered to them by 1 day turns.

In the one game of 2-day turns the game definitely seemed to go a bit slower and carrier operations/raids were most assuredly more carefully planned.

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Post #: 10

RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/24/2018 2:57:28 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

... I've done a quick test and confirmed that in a PBEM you can NOT change back to 1 day turns from 2 day. You must only be able to do it in AI games...

Not correct, you just haven't spoken the equivalent tech words of "Open Sesame".

It requires insertion of a command line switch. Read this thread for the details.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3522343&mpage=1&key=switch�

There is a lengthy and detailed thread from circa 2009 where the devs Joe Wilkinson and Nikademus go into the practical considerations involved in playing 2 day turns.

Alfred

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/24/2018 3:46:31 AM

USSAmerica

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Thank you, Alfred!

Having the option to change if we don't like how things are playing out makes it more likely that we will go for it. I'll go looking for the Joe-Nik discussion you mentioned as well.

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/24/2018 5:40:17 AM

Alfred

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This is the 2009 thread I referred to in my previous post.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2268831&mpage=1&key=length&#2269349

Alfred

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/24/2018 6:28:58 AM

AW1Steve

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Mike on our 2x2 I found that 1) 2 day turns advanced the play somewhat faster. and 2) make it a bear to plan strikes and maintain control , especially with CV strikes. 3) if the situation changed , or you suddenly stumbled across the enemy you were hand-cuffed till the third turn. I often felt like watching an out of control train wreck will "watching the second movie" . Many of those turns I was "sweating bullets" as I knew there was absolutely nothing I could do except watch the events unfold.

I guess I'm the only person that didn't care for 2 day turns (that figures. I usually am "the odd duck out"). But I really don't care for the loss of control over 50% of my turns.

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/24/2018 6:44:38 AM

Anachro

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@AW2Steve considering most of the forum including myself prefers 1-day turns, you are hardly the odd-person out. The additional difficulty some people describe and prefer in this thread is arbitrary and wholly-self inflicted, relating to the mechanics of 2-day turns, nothing more. The only benefit, as you state, is the fact that things move more quickly.

< Message edited by Anachro -- 12/24/2018 6:45:37 AM >

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/24/2018 12:13:42 PM

USSAmerica

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Mike on our 2x2 I found that 1) 2 day turns advanced the play somewhat faster. and 2) make it a bear to plan strikes and maintain control , especially with CV strikes. 3) if the situation changed , or you suddenly stumbled across the enemy you were hand-cuffed till the third turn. I often felt like watching an out of control train wreck will "watching the second movie" . Many of those turns I was "sweating bullets" as I knew there was absolutely nothing I could do except watch the events unfold.

I guess I'm the only person that didn't care for 2 day turns (that figures. I usually am "the odd duck out"). But I really don't care for the loss of control over 50% of my turns.

Thanks for the feedback, Steve! Around these parts we are all odd and ducks. Our admiration for and devotion to this game prove this.

You are hardly the odd duck out. And then, there are THE THREAD!!! Brothers, but that's a whole other level of odd.

Merry Christmas, partner!

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Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/24/2018 12:27:58 PM

USSAmerica

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To keep things concise, I'm adding the "Open Sesame" magic trick to allow switching Turn Cycle in a PBEM game that Alfred linked to above:

If the Japanese player modifies their shortcut with the command line switch below then they can change the number of days per turn as per a single player game.

"The option is a command line switch (-cd) that the Japanese player needs to run. The turn can be loaded and the 'Turn cycle' is allowed to be changed thru the in-game preferences. "

Without digging through all of the Beta release notes, I'm not sure which Beta patch added this feature, but I can confirm that it works great in the latest official patch, 1.7.11.24.

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/24/2018 7:53:20 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

@AW2Steve considering most of the forum including myself prefers 1-day turns, you are hardly the odd-person out. The additional difficulty some people describe and prefer in this thread is arbitrary and wholly-self inflicted, relating to the mechanics of 2-day turns, nothing more. The only benefit, as you state, is the fact that things move more quickly.

Dude! Thank you for your kind words , but did you REALLY have to DEMOTE me?

I WAS an AW2 once , but then miracles of miracles I made 1st class petty officer!(AW1). But almost 30 years later you demote me!

Did I miss the Captain's mast (article 15).

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/24/2018 8:21:09 PM

Anachro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Dude! Thank you for your kind words , but did you REALLY have to DEMOTE me? I WAS an AW2 once , but then miracles of miracles I made 1st class petty officer!(AW1). But almost 30 years later you demote me! Did I miss the Captain's mast (article 15).

My mistake!

I was never in the military and know crap about the ranking system so forgive me for my mental lapse.

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/25/2018 10:48:15 AM

adarbrauner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kbfchicago

Based on prior posts around this topic 1 vs 2 day is almost as bad as Ginger vs Mary Ann. I'm a Mary Ann (I mean 2 day) guy. For my money it adds (significant) additional depth and complexity to the game. Helps better align the game closer to a simulation (which is important for me). Are there challenges? Yes. I believe those challenges equally impact both sides so there is not an inherent advantage for either side. 2 day cycle is the only way I will play.

At this point have certainly 100s if not +1000s of turns covering both sides, PBEM and AI, stock, DBBs, LST mods, games as late as 12/44, to inform my view.

Best wishes on getting into Japan, a PBEM goal I too would like to get reach as some point.

my 2 cents.

Kevin

I have to add only that 3 days is even better

(in reply to kbfchicago)

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/25/2018 3:05:49 PM

erstad

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Has anyone tested: When you change the turn cycle from two days to one, is the one day you get is identical to the the first day of the two day cycle, does the act of changing modifies the seed in some way?

I've played two day turns almost exclusively in PBEM (although I've been on hiatus for a bit) including games that have gotten deep into 1945. Every so often, something happens that is egregiously bad, it would be nice to have a house rule that in rare circumstances, one could ask for the first day to be replayed and get a chance to enter new orders for the second day. You'd want the bar to be high, e.g., if there's a sighting or early contact you don't want to be replaying for that, slowed reaction time is part of the challenge (and arguably advantage) of the two day turns, but if there's a crippling CV exchange on day 1 and on day 2 the remaining carriers continue charging forward only to be slaughtered, that might count. But, you wouldn't want to have the results of the first day to be changed. The idea isn't to give someone another random shot at coming out ahead.

By the way, I did play a PBEM in the original WITP into 45 using 3 day turns. That was not my cup of tea. There's a lot of potential for "bad" outcomes without some ability to react. And routinely you might not want your air groups doing the same mission (or non-mission) three days in a row. Two day turns still allow for some amount of rotating/resting/etc.

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/25/2018 3:56:11 PM

USSAmerica

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erstad, with the command line flag enabled, the Turn Cycle can only be changed by the Japanese player, during their orders phase. Turn resolution from the previous day/days is already completed before you could change the number of days. If you wanted to perform a "do over" you would have to go back to the Japanese orders phase of the previous turn, have that player change to 1 day turns, then the Allied player would have to enter all of their orders again. When the next turn resolution is run, it will only be fore 1 day, but I'm sure the random number generator seed would be changed for the 1st day of the "do over".

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/25/2018 7:56:48 PM

mogami

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I cannot even imagine playing anything other then 1 day turns. I have watched too many disasters begin on day 1 of multiple day turns. I am never in so much of a hurry to finish the game.

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RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/26/2018 1:30:59 AM

erstad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

erstad, with the command line flag enabled, the Turn Cycle can only be changed by the Japanese player, during their orders phase. Turn resolution from the previous day/days is already completed before you could change the number of days. If you wanted to perform a "do over" you would have to go back to the Japanese orders phase of the previous turn, have that player change to 1 day turns, then the Allied player would have to enter all of their orders again. When the next turn resolution is run, it will only be fore 1 day, but I'm sure the random number generator seed would be changed for the 1st day of the "do over".

Ah, I didn't understand it changed during the Japanese orders phase. That's unfortunate. It would be very handy if the Japanese player could change it prior to turn resolution. Or, just to remove the small cheat opportunity (*), it would actually be nice if there was a way for the allied player to change it on a committed turn.

I wouldn't want to play with someone who wanted to be continually changing and redoing, but I could see, for example, giving each player an annual opportunity to back up and only run day 1 for a certain class of day 1 disasters.

(*) IJ could run both 1 and 2 day, and inspect things at the end of day 1 which would not be available to the Allied plaer.

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Post #: 24

RE: 2 day turns - thoughts and opinions - 12/26/2018 1:37:27 AM

pontiouspilot