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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> really bad a$$ IJN sub

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really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 8:40:30 AM

mogami

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Sub attack near Bundaberg at 97,153

Japanese Ships
SS I-169, hits 7, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CA Northampton, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Shaw
CA Chicago, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA Portland, Shell hits 1

SS I-169 launches 4 torpedoes at CA Northampton
I-169 diving deep ....

So the battle began with I-169 Hitting Northampton with a torpedo. The escorts then forced her to surface where she hit Northampton with 2 more torpedos and for good measure torpedoed an already damaged Chicago and hit Portland with her deck gun before being sunk. Both CA also sank.

< Message edited by mogami -- 1/4/2019 8:41:51 AM >

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RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 10:49:25 AM

GetAssista

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Woah! I have seen a sub duking it out with ASW force on the surface one time using torps, but never that kind.

Allied player should just surrender, before it is too late

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 2

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 10:53:30 AM

adarbrauner

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Huh!

(in reply to GetAssista)

Post #: 3

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 3:47:12 PM

LargeSlowTarget

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From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
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Yamato-damashii!

Wish I had such a sub. Who was the skipper?

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Post #: 4

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 6:03:32 PM

spence

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From: Vancouver, Washington
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Actual research on the topic regarding submarines of ANY nationality firing torpedoes after being forced to surface (due to damage) reveal that there was one such instance. The only time was when the heavily damaged U-371, under attack by an ASW group after torpedoing the USS MENGES the day before, fired a HOMING TORPEDO which hit the Free French DE Senagalese. Thereafter the U-371 sank or was abandoned.

An AAR describing the incident is included in this link:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-371A/U-371.htm

BS is pretty much the only thing that be said about the inclusion of this fantasy in the game. Statistically the use of small arms and hand to hand combat in the sinking of a submarine is twice as likely to have occurred as this foolishness.

< Message edited by spence -- 1/4/2019 6:07:35 PM >

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 5

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 6:11:02 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Actual research on the topic regarding submarines of ANY nationality firing torpedoes after being forced to surface (due to damage) reveal that there was one such instance. The only time was when the heavily damaged U-371, under attack by an ASW group after torpedoing the USS MENGES the day before, fired a HOMING TORPEDO which hit the Free French DE Senagalese. Thereafter the U-371 sank or was abandoned.

An AAR describing the incident is included in this link:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-371A/U-371.htm

BS is pretty much the only thing that be said about the inclusion of this fantasy in the game. Statistically the use of small arms and hand to hand combat in the sinking of a submarine is twice as likely to have occurred as this foolishness.

And statistically, submarines making attacks on escorts instead of real targets or only launching once against a real target is about a billion times more likely to happen in-game than happened IRL.

It's a game, dude. Abstractions had to be made and this is what we have, which is based on reasonable assumptions and programming constraints. You can argue with the suitability of those assumptions for posterity's sake, but simply berating them isn't really productive.

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 6

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 6:17:33 PM

spence

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From: Vancouver, Washington
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quote:

based on reasonable assumptions???

that never happened in the Pacific and involved a weapons system that the Japanese never developed

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 7

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 6:30:46 PM

mogami

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Hi, If it happened all the time i would not have posted the event. Something even more rare occured. June 42 and the first bomber to shoot down enemy AC (I watch all the combats) was a Sonia shooting down a P-40E over PM (watch your aircraft fatigue tired aircraft are much easier to shoot down. Currently the Dutch over Java are shooting down Zeros because the Dutch rest and the Japanese fly everyday.)

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RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 6:39:41 PM

spence

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From: Vancouver, Washington
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quote:

Something even more rare occured.

Exactly how much rarer than never (happened) can one get?

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 9

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 8:10:42 PM

mogami

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Hi, You cannot prove (or disprove) a negative. When any event occurs for the first time it had never occurred before. Before it occurred no one would think it possible. Also occurring in game is a ship dead in water attacked by 70+ well trained bomber pilots and not being touched. 2 air phases in a row. Chinese capturing Hanoi, Japanese capturing Chunking, Wake never being captured and fighting off a dozen attempts, The entire point of playing Japan is to get a result that never happened. After turn 1 nothing that happens happened (at least not the way it does in the game) That is the point of the game.

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Post #: 10

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 9:15:35 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

based on reasonable assumptions???
that never happened in the Pacific and involved a weapons system that the Japanese never developed

The Japanese never had torpedoes on their submarines?

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 11

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 9:20:16 PM

Lokasenna

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Here's a combat report that happened in the real war:

quote:

Sub attack near Solomon Islands

Japanese Ships
SS I-19

Allied Ships
CV Northampton, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina, Torpedo hits 1
DD O'Brien, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

SS I-19 launches 6 torpedoes at CV Wasp

But I suppose that never could have actually happened in real life, either, so clearly we must all be living in a giant simulation.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 12

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 10:03:45 PM

spence

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quote:

The Japanese never had torpedoes on their submarines?

The Japanese never had a serviceable HOMING TORPEDO of any sort. In the one instance where a damaged submarine was forced to the surface and subsequently fired torpedoes at all the submarine (which was not an IJN submarine) fired a HOMING TORPEDO.

The example you cited DID happen which puts it in the unlikely but possible category rather than the Japanese Player wet dream category.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 13

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 10:27:40 PM

Chickenboy

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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Here's a combat report that happened in the real war:

quote:

Sub attack near Solomon Islands

Japanese Ships
SS I-19

Allied Ships
CV Northampton, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina, Torpedo hits 1
DD O'Brien, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

SS I-19 launches 6 torpedoes at CV Wasp

But I suppose that never could have actually happened in real life, either, so clearly we must all be living in a giant simulation.

Was the CV Northampton of the same class and yards as the CV Shangri La?

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RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/4/2019 11:55:39 PM

mogami

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Hi, Grognards are SOB's

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RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/5/2019 10:27:03 AM

GetAssista

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There are many more actions happening in the different WITP games combined, compared to actions happened in the war itself. So the argument "it did not happen in the war so it should not happen in the game" is flawed on pure statistical reasons. The correct judgment for some surprising game action would be based on the question "is it plausible based on what we know about tech and people, and if yes, is it rare enough?"

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 16

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/5/2019 4:49:09 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Here's a combat report that happened in the real war:

quote:

Sub attack near Solomon Islands

Japanese Ships
SS I-19

Allied Ships
CV Northampton, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina, Torpedo hits 1
DD O'Brien, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

SS I-19 launches 6 torpedoes at CV Wasp

But I suppose that never could have actually happened in real life, either, so clearly we must all be living in a giant simulation.

Was the CV Northampton of the same class and yards as the CV Shangri La?

I think it was the sister ship to CV Wasp, but got scrapped in the Typo Shipyards.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 17

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/5/2019 4:50:44 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

There are many more actions happening in the different WITP games combined, compared to actions happened in the war itself. So the argument "it did not happen in the war so it should not happen in the game" is flawed on pure statistical reasons. The correct judgment for some surprising game action would be based on the question "is it plausible based on what we know about tech and people, and if yes, is it rare enough?"

But since Japanese subs never performed surface "run and gun" actions, they can't do them in the war - didn't you know?

Nevermind that American subs did so.

This comes up every time somebody posts one of these (rare) results. Would this be unlikely to occur? Yes. Is it implausible? Hell no.

(in reply to GetAssista)

Post #: 18

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/5/2019 5:55:23 PM

apbarog

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The very rare occurrences in the game are something to be celebrated. This one is memorable for me:

18 Feb 43

Sub attack near Ocean Island at 131,127

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kirishima
BB Haruna
CA Furutaka
CS Nisshin
DD Asagumo
DD Naganami
DD Ushio
DD Yugiri
DD Asagiri
DD Shirakumo

Allied Ships
SS Pompano

Ammo storage explosion on CV Akagi

It was early 1943, so the torpedoes were somewhat better than in 1942, but to get 4 hits with no duds was something I won't forget.

[taken from my game versus Walker: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3733113&mpage=32&key=]

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Post #: 19

RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/5/2019 5:57:37 PM

spence

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From: Vancouver, Washington
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quote:

Yeah, but N.B. for the U-boat--homing torpedo.

I've fired torpedo tubes that were almost exactly the WWII design, and there's really no way a torpedoman could do it from a standing start if the compartment were flooding, filled with smoke, and at an angle. If the shutter and outer door were open, the tube flooded, the gyro spindles out, and there was still HP air and AC power, maybe. Once. An un-aimed snapshot. I've seen up to four salvos from surfaced subs in the game.

The thing is, any sub that CAN stay down WILL stay down. Surfacing near a skimmer gun platform is fatal. They're made to shoot guns; subs aren't. They have good FC systems; subs have MK I eyeballs. They roll some; subs roll a lot. And so forth. If a sub surfaces while heavily damaged it's to get the crew off. That's hard. Hatches are small and all but the bridge are vulnerable to sea state and flooding. If the crew is trying to unlimber deck guns and not trying to get over the side, the skimmers are justified in pouring in shells, and they will always win that one. If you want to go down with all hands you can stay under and sink. If you surface it's in the hope of saving some of the crew. Fighting back at all makes that doubtful.

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It seems that the IJN had very unusual submarine torpedo launching systems and Iorpedomen.

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RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/5/2019 6:42:11 PM

John 3rd

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Well done to that skipper. Did he, by a miracle, SURVIVE??!! Promote and keep him!

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RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/6/2019 1:20:56 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Well done to that skipper. Did he, by a miracle, SURVIVE??!! Promote and keep him!

Yes! By all means promote him to a high level rear echelon desk job! Performance should always be rewarded thusly!

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RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/6/2019 3:44:05 AM

Zorch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Well done to that skipper. Did he, by a miracle, SURVIVE??!! Promote and keep him!

Yes! By all means promote him to a high level rear echelon desk job! Performance should always be rewarded thusly!

Right!
When will organizations learn that success at one level is not a sure-fire indicator of success at a higher level?

(in reply to BBfanboy)

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RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/6/2019 4:50:01 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Well done to that skipper. Did he, by a miracle, SURVIVE??!! Promote and keep him!

Yes! By all means promote him to a high level rear echelon desk job! Performance should always be rewarded thusly!

Right!
When will organizations learn that success at one level is not a sure-fire indicator of success at a higher level?

That's called the Peter Principle - an employee will rise to his/her level of incompetence!

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: really bad a$$ IJN sub - 1/13/2019 11:35:48 AM

xj900uk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mogami

Hi, If it happened all the time i would not have posted the event. Something even more rare occured. June 42 and the first bomber to shoot down enemy AC (I watch all the combats) was a Sonia shooting down a P-40E over PM (watch your aircraft fatigue tired aircraft are much easier to shoot down. Currently the Dutch over Java are shooting down Zeros because the Dutch rest and the Japanese fly everyday.)

I@Ve had bomber aces but only on the Allies side. The B24 Liberators operating by day out of Calcutta, and the RAF's Wellingtons and modified Liberators were shooting down more Oscar@s than vice-versa.
The highest score was a USAAF captain (I forget who) who got to 8 kills before going MIA (and then not due to enemy action)

I have had a feew IJAAF bombers scoring victories, mainly the Sonia@s but they never seem to get higher than '1'. Betty and Nells never semet o hit anything and usuaully die in droves (I guess due to the big unarmoured fuel tanks)

I did have an Aussie Wirraway rear gunner who shot down THREE AM62's in a single engagement...

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 25