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ineffective artillery - 6/19/2003 1:34:54 AM   
rmjames

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 8/29/2002
From: Isle of wight England
Status: offline 		i believe that aprox. 70% of casulties in ww2 were caused by art of different sorts,on all european fronts.........why is artillary so ineffective in spwaw ? ie 150mm hits on a hex -no casualities...sometimes i target the same hex with 4 or 5 markers getting plenty of stikes but only one or two casualties if any....i find that to be more realistic (i appreciate spwaw is a game) in regards casualties i have to double the art effectiveness

any thoughts

:confused:
Post #: 1
- 6/19/2003 1:57:00 AM   
Capt Chris

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 2/4/2002
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline 		If you are looking for kills then artillery isn't for you. I'm not sure about your stats on the number of deaths in WW2 due to arty but 70% seems like it might be a little high. Then again I really don't know.

The main use of artillery in this game (for me at least) is supression, especially against infantry targets. Even armor can take supression from indirect fire if you really lay it on thick, and it is big enough.

Supress the enemy and make them take cover and they lose their ability to fight (at least temporarily). If you keep pounding them, they will eventually lose their nerve to fight and run the other way. :)

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Post #: 2
Whew! - 6/19/2003 1:59:03 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Ineffective? Surely you jest!

I believe your historical factoids are correct. It coincides with most of what I've heard about WWII artillery. But consider what type of game this would be if that effectivity was duplicated. I don't think that 'Artillery - World at War' would gain much of a player following. :rolleyes:

As it stands today, most PBEM players find a need to put restrictions on purchase points and types for artillery, just to keep the game 'playable'.

Artillery in SPWaW is not so much a killing machine as a means of projecting your will on the enemy 'over the horizon'. Supression and interdiction are the order of the day here.

I have both delivered and been the recipient of excessive artillery pounding that has effectively brought the game to a standstill. (and in several cases caused the game to pre-empt prematurely - boy is THAT annoying)

If you haven't already, read through the forum members suggestions on increasing arty effectiveness in 'Artillery Management - T.O.T.' There's lots of good ideas on getting more for your buck in artillery purchases and usage there.

Good hunting, but use your guns, not lobbing explosives. :cool:

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Post #: 3
- 6/19/2003 1:59:34 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		2 points:

1) You can increase the effectiveness v soft targets in the preferences screen IIRC.

2) As someone who's PBEM'd with lots of big arty, it is really boring! I would never play a game like that again. Blowing everything away with arty simply isn't fun (although you may win it's not very satisfying).

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Post #: 4
- 6/19/2003 2:11:44 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]...
2) As someone who's PBEM'd with lots of big arty, it is really boring! I would never play a game like that again. Blowing everything away with arty simply isn't fun (although you may win it's not very satisfying). [/B][/QUOTE]

Amen! :D

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Post #: 5
- 6/19/2003 2:22:16 AM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		The speed at which infantry is moving substantially affects the casualties they take; I've seen squads vanish after they jog into a 'werfer or 150+mm 'downpour'. Also keep in mind that after your first round landed the occupants of the hex were hugging the ground (status='pinned'), so subsequent fire missions won't be as devastating.

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Post #: 6
- 6/19/2003 2:26:33 AM   
Spenser

 

Posts: 81
Joined: 7/5/2002
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Also consider that with spwaw we do not simulate the long, sometimes lasting for hours, pre-offensive bombardments that were used to soften up enemy positions.

Spenser

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Post #: 7
- 6/19/2003 2:27:13 AM   
rmjames

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 8/29/2002
From: Isle of wight England
Status: offline 		great to see some valid different opinions-i might just raise the effectiveness by 20% instead of by 100%

cheers:D

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Post #: 8
- 6/19/2003 2:28:06 AM   
David Lehmann

 

Posts: 72
Joined: 10/10/2000
From: France
Status: offline 		H2H better simulates the artillery, as well as MG and mortars fires. Just my opinion.

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Post #: 9
- 6/19/2003 2:31:25 AM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Lehmann
[B]H2H better simulates the artillery, as well as MG and mortars fires. Just my opinion. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree, H2H is much more realistic about artillery damage, without having to mess with the preferences.

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Post #: 10
- 6/19/2003 2:42:12 AM   
ZeroAntipop

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 12/4/2001
Status: offline 		I think artillery works great in h2h. Although normally I find that when I target the enemy with artillery they're 400 yards away by the time the artillery gets around to puking.

But I remember the 70% figure actually being referred to as the casualty numbers caused by mortars, which seems excessive. But we must remember that mortars tended to have an ample supply of ammunition, and were normally placed relatively close to the fighting where they could fire off a shell the size (if not larger) of a normally artillery shell with probably a greater degree of acuracy, or at least speed.

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Post #: 11
- 6/19/2003 3:17:18 AM   
Wolfleader

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 10/31/2002
Status: offline 		Arty bombardments in SPWAW are bombardments that only last for a few minutes to a half hour to an hour at most (each turn in SPWAW is worth 1 to 2 minutes if I remember the faq correctly so 24 to 48 game minutes 'pass' in an average 24 turn game).

During WW2 bombardments would last for hours and days on end which should explain the heavy arty casualty count.

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Post #: 12
- 6/19/2003 8:19:15 AM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wolfleader
[B]Arty bombardments in SPWAW are bombardments that only last for a few minutes to a half hour to an hour at most (each turn in SPWAW is worth 1 to 2 minutes if I remember the faq correctly so 24 to 48 game minutes 'pass' in an average 24 turn game).

During WW2 bombardments would last for hours and days on end which should explain the heavy arty casualty count. [/B][/QUOTE]

Not to mention the majority of large guns firing will be at road junctions or other troop concetrations outside of the battle area. For every time you shoot an arty unit in the game in real life several more would have fired miles to the rear at troops that weren't expecting to be shot at, and who were often caught out in the open.

If you want to simulate the kind of casualties that artillery could cause, go ahead and deploy troops in a town bedded down for the night and then drop some mortar shells onto their buildings. You will get the occasional building collapse the will kill several men at a time. Makes for a very boring couple of turns, and I don't know of anyone who would want to play out this.

Even at the D-Day landings the overall casualty rate was only like 25%, compare that to the normal game of SPWAW where against the ai sometimes you see 100% casualties on one side.
thanks, John.

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Post #: 13
- 6/19/2003 10:20:13 AM   
fullmetaljacko

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 6/13/2003
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline 		one time i started a campaign and i bought just one platoon and the rest arty, a battery of 8inch and 155mm i think, and i hammered the heck outa the main town objective. They had bunkers and a bunch of infantry. After 3 rounds i surrendered cuz i was bored and it turns out that i killed like 200 men. So it's not THAT bad.

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Post #: 14
- 6/19/2003 4:54:30 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Before H2H came along,I used to tweak the effectiveness against soft targets to 160% and against hard targets to 140%..Now with H2H,I don't have to do much except play with the "hard" setting a tad.
I do play for realism and having credible artillery does NOT kill the enjoyment of the game..
(The guy on the ground never has the chance to "lower" the artillery effectiveness,except with a shovel)
If changes are needed.I would like to see spotters less likely to be spotted,and harder to hit once spotted.At present,they are a sitting duck.Also,mortars are way too weak,(versus what *I* know to be realistic.)..
(If only they could make a mortar that could throw smoke,exclusively,like ALL American 120's in the "chemical" bn's before 1943)..;)

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Post #: 15
- 6/19/2003 6:31:03 PM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by m10bob
[B]...If only they could make a mortar that could throw smoke,exclusively,like ALL American 120's in the "chemical" bn's before 1943)..;) [/B][/QUOTE]

Easy to remedy in the Editor. I've often thought of giving more mortars smoke. But, as often as I think of adding smoke, I also think of taking it away - from all the infantry! :rolleyes:

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Post #: 16
- 6/19/2003 7:33:12 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		I believe that 70% loss rate to mortars was to one thing, and one thing only, and that was US losses on the Western Front.

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Post #: 17
- 6/19/2003 9:15:21 PM   
Capt Chris

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 2/4/2002
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline 		I don't think I have ever tried a massive arty game. I never really understood the 10% agreement thing but I guess now I do. From the sounds of it, arty can be some nasty stuff if purchased in great numbers. I really don't see the fun in that... If I wanted to play an impersonal, long distance campaign I would just play global-thermal-nuclear-war. Strange game though, nobody ever seems to win... :D

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Post #: 18
- 6/20/2003 12:47:37 AM   
Wolfleader

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 10/31/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by john g
[B]Not to mention the majority of large guns firing will be at road junctions or other troop concetrations outside of the battle area. For every time you shoot an arty unit in the game in real life several more would have fired miles to the rear at troops that weren't expecting to be shot at, and who were often caught out in the open. [/B][/QUOTE]

Dunno about firing arty to the enemy's rear. As far as I know arty was used mainly to soften up the enemy's forward positions in preparation for an imminent attack or to blunt the enemy's attack.

I believe the standard strategy was to bombard the enemy heavily and inflict as many casualties before they can hunker down in their foxholes. Wait a few minutes or even hours until the enemy drops his guard and begin leaving their holes to check up on their comrades in arms who may have been wounded in the bombardment before launching another arty strike.

I think the vast majority of casualties also occured when arty was used against an enemy assault, when enemy inf are forced to be out in the open instead of in their holes.

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Post #: 19
A couple of questions - 6/20/2003 1:04:43 AM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		First what size artillary are you using?
50mm, 60mm, 81mm?
Or 105mm, 120mm, 150mm, 6.2 inchers?
Or 203mm, 8" inchers, Navel Guns, Rockets?

Each class effects soft targets differently.

Second how much of a barage are you throwing?
Is it a one plot barge?
A two to three plot barage?
or a 4-6 plot barage?

I can tell you this that in both 7.1 and H2H if you plot a 4 to 6 plot barage(16 to 24 rounds) of 120mm artillary on a 4 unit platoon that are in the open or on slope you will get about 6-20 kills.
If they are in trees you will get about 2-5 kills.
And if they are all in rough or buildings you will get about 0-1 kill.

Terrain plays a big roll so does size of the war head and speed of the infantry also the stance they are in.

Now if you plot 4 plots of say 8 inchers and a platoon of infantry is caught out in the open you can say good buy to that infantry platoon, it has happened to me before.

Same goes for Navel Guns (navel guns rock) and Rockets.

Most PBEM'ers limit artillary because it is so devistating not because it is in-effective.

You should try a game where you get US Heavy Navel guns at your disposal. :) Ussually not much left at Ground Zero. :D Just ask Goblin we played a game once where I had them. I think he still has nightmares . :(

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Post #: 20
- 6/21/2003 12:58:33 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		don´t forget the terrain type. woods and rough protect against arty , too AFAIK. and if the unit is entrenched of course the loss rate is lower, too.

in general i would say the SPWAW arty IS effective esp. all above 105. 155mm,5.5 + 8inch guns can be deadly if used at a soft target in bad terrain ( clear,sand for example ), not to forget the ship arty and rockets.

as a example i´m currently playing the russian steel camp battle 17 or so... you have to storm an enemy controlled village. much hungarian and german ( ? ) troops in there. but 2-3 turns bombardement w/ katjushas + 120mm mortars soften them so much that you even can go in with tanks without to much danger to be close assaulted..

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Post #: 21
ineffective artillery? - 6/23/2003 2:56:40 PM   
werderwayne

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 1/29/2003
Status: offline 		I may be mistaken, but I think that maybe the statistic is that 70% of combat DEATHS came from artillery. I think that there were a very high % of casualties were by machine guns. As I remember, chances of getting wounded by MG were quite high.

I think that for many reasons listed above we shouldn’t see that many casualties in SPWAW from arty. I think that arty is actually WAY too effective, at least against tanks. Against soft targets I think that they are about right, but the effect that 81mm mortars have on heavy tanks is ridiculous. Not that I haven’t taken advantage of this…I used a single 81mm mortar and KO’ed a T-34 with three or four shots. It was silly, but I couldn’t help it.

Overall casualties for the whole war I don’t think are too important. In the American Civil War, the number one cause of death was disease. I think that a tactical Civil War game that ignores disease would be fine.

Air-to-ground rockets, I feel, in the game are ridiculously effective against tanks. On practice runs under perfect conditions the chances of a hit with a pair of rockets on a tank were maybe about 10%. I read an estimate that under combat conditions, the chance of a rocket hitting a tank was under 1%. For a plane 8-rocket run, I think that % was about 5-6%. In SPWAW, the chances PER ROCKET seem to be about 20%.

Best regards,
WW

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Post #: 22
- 6/23/2003 3:04:03 PM   
werderwayne

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 1/29/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank W.
[B]don´t forget the terrain type. woods and rough protect against arty , too AFAIK. and if the unit is entrenched of course the loss rate is lower, too.
++SNIP++
[/B][/QUOTE]

This caught me off guard...normally cover is good for infantry, but I was under the impression that infantry in woods was in WORSE shape against mortar and rocket attacks. The reason was that the rockets and mortar rounds would hit the trees and explode DOWN on the soldiers, making trenches much less effective.

Any ideas?

-WW
PS how does one get "The Editor" for SPWAW?

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Post #: 23
- 6/23/2003 5:21:08 PM   
LordCucumber

 

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/17/2003
From: Holland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by werderwayne
[B]
PS how does one get "The Editor" for SPWAW? [/B][/QUOTE]

There is a nice ingame button (took me a while to find it) called 'editor' :D

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Post #: 24
- 6/23/2003 5:46:35 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by werderwayne
[B]This caught me off guard...normally cover is good for infantry, but I was under the impression that infantry in woods was in WORSE shape against mortar and rocket attacks. The reason was that the rockets and mortar rounds would hit the trees and explode DOWN on the soldiers, making trenches much less effective.
[/B][/QUOTE]

mhhh... i would be interested in that question, too.

but than arty in sand hexes must be less effective because the sand "swallows" some of the explosion power of the shells....

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Post #: 25
- 6/23/2003 8:54:19 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Artillery ineffective?? Surely you jest :)

You have clearly never experienced my artillery then hehe.

Patton would hold you by the nose and kick in the azz.

Me I prefer to stand on your head and jump up and down on it :).

I love artillery :)

Best way to ruin an attack is to pound the snot out of it with artillery.
Of course timing is the key, my timing could be better.

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Post #: 26
- 6/23/2003 9:33:37 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		how about a PBM, les ?

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Post #: 27
- 6/23/2003 10:07:16 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		The initial answer is yes, the realistic one is I will have to pass. Will be away from home a fee days, and have my hands currently full with a few tasks.

It would not be fair to start what I might not finish.

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Post #: 28
Something most wargames forget.... - 6/23/2003 10:35:43 PM   
plloyd


Posts: 179
Joined: 8/8/2001
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline 		While it is true that artillery caused most combat casualties in WW2, most combat casualties do not happen in battles such as portrayed in the game. Most artillery fire is at a rather low intensity for days, perhaps weeks, over a large area. The intention was to cause trouble and minor disruption. Also I didn't see anyone mention the 15 minute to an hour preparatory bombardments which often happened. Most artillery casualties simply do not happen in our battles. Would anyone like to play a game of 50 turns where the first 30 are spent doing recon and bombardment? If so let me know, but I don't think I would want to make a habit of it.

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Post #: 29
- 6/24/2003 4:27:18 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]The initial answer is yes, the realistic one is I will have to pass. Will be away from home a fee days, and have my hands currently full with a few tasks.

It would not be fair to start what I might not finish. [/B][/QUOTE]

okay, perhaps another time
;)

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Post #: 30
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