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Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/23/2019 5:01:00 PM   
wegman58

 

Posts: 460
Joined: 12/28/2013
From: Edina, MN (FROM the Bronx)
Status: offline 		Early 1944, I just had an encounter with the remnants of the IJN carrier force. I was underwhelmed with the performance of my Hellcats. Would I have done better with Corsairs?

I have some marine squadrons and enough to transition a squadron or two to Corsairs (the 2nd generation, NOT the ones without tailhooks).

Just wondering if it would be worth the effort.
Post #: 1
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/23/2019 5:46:37 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wegman58
Would I have done better with Corsairs?

Yes. Much faster, more manoeuvrable, better durability while the same firepower. What's not to like?

(in reply to wegman58)
Post #: 2
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/23/2019 6:44:31 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		While a more advanced model (F4U-4?), the Corsair continued in service into the Korean War. The F6F was relegated to training/replaced almost immediately following the war by the F8F.

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 3
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/23/2019 7:20:57 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		Check your replacement rates. If you do not have enough to replace losses, you will need to keep on using the Hellcats. If you're not getting good results with the Hellcats, make sure your pilots are good. Send the worse pilots back to the pool and request a veteran.

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 4
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/23/2019 7:43:16 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Hellcats in escort roles are toast - especially against good LBA fighters. Generally, Hellcats only do well in CAP roles against enemy fighters serving as escorts.

(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 5
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/23/2019 8:01:13 PM   
wegman58

 

Posts: 460
Joined: 12/28/2013
From: Edina, MN (FROM the Bronx)
Status: offline 		Thank you all.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/23/2019 8:19:52 PM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hellcats in escort roles are toast - especially against good LBA fighters. Generally, Hellcats only do well in CAP roles against enemy fighters serving as escorts.


Pray for me when I face John's carrier-capable Jacks and Georges.

< Message edited by Anachro -- 2/24/2019 7:29:17 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 7
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/23/2019 11:56:50 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hellcats in escort roles are toast - especially against good LBA fighters. Generally, Hellcats only do well in CAP roles against enemy fighters serving as escorts.


Pray for me when I face John's carried-capable Jacks and Georges.



Is that some kind of mod? Jacks and Georges are capable of being carried, is that what you mean?

(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 8
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/24/2019 1:03:07 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		A little handle behind the cockpit.

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Post #: 9
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/24/2019 5:44:35 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Pray for me when I face John's carried-capable Jacks and Georges.


Unless playing a mod, these aircraft aren't CV capable.

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(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 10
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/24/2019 6:44:09 PM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Pray for me when I face John's carried-capable Jacks and Georges.


Unless playing a mod, these aircraft aren't CV capable.


This is John's BTS mod and yes they are carrier-capable in it.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 11
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/25/2019 2:35:18 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Pray for me when I face John's carried-capable Jacks and Georges.


Unless playing a mod, these aircraft aren't CV capable.


This is John's BTS mod and yes they are carrier-capable in it.


Are ME 262 also Carrier Capable ? Or rather the Nakajima Kikka ?

I would assume so...



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(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 12
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/25/2019 2:44:41 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		In one of my early games vs. John III (probably a WitP match, not AE), he had a mod in which he'd made Jacks carrier capable. Apparently a lively discussion erupted in his AAR, for he ultimately decided not to deploy them on carriers in the game. Something must've changed since then?

(in reply to Macclan5)
Post #: 13
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/25/2019 4:18:49 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Something must've changed since then?

Progress! Japanese scientists have worked around the clock and finally found a solution

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 14
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/26/2019 2:37:17 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Nope, maybe they can take off from the carrier but not land on the carrier . . .

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(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 15
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/26/2019 3:00:57 AM   
BillBrown


Posts: 2335
Joined: 6/15/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Pray for me when I face John's carried-capable Jacks and Georges.


Unless playing a mod, these aircraft aren't CV capable.


This is John's BTS mod and yes they are carrier-capable in it.


I am in the same boat. I took on a BTSL 5.4 game and then realized that both the Jack and George
are carrier capable. This means that the USN will never have a carrier fighter that is equal or better
the the IJN.

(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 16
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 2/28/2019 3:36:38 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		In my game of RA 7.9 the Japanese player accelerated the second-generation George which is on his CV and produced in vast numbers. Even at the beginning of 1944 I do not really want to face his carriers. The George has also very much slow the advance of the allies on the ground and it manages to get bombers through to ships quite easily.

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 17
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 3/7/2019 3:18:11 AM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline 		The F6F Hellcat under-performs in this game, especially compared to the F4U Corsair.
Both were excellent types for their era.
But the Hellcat did not earn the highest kill ratio of any fighter in the PTO for nothing.

The Hellcat was a bit lighter, with a larger wing, and lower wing loading - along with Better High-Altitude performance than the F4U, with the same engine-supercharger combo, and horsepower.
The game mechanics short the Hellcat in regards to it's true performance envelope, and in the stock game the Hellcats top speed is shortened - it was only about 20mph slower in top speed over most models, but more maneuverable, better altitude performance, and an easier carrier operated fighter - with about The Lowest maintenance requirements of the war.
The US Navy and Marines kept the F4U after the war because more development was done later as a fighter-bomber...when Fighters were transitioned to jets, but that is no reflection on either's WW2 record and performance in the Day-Fighter role.

EDIT: Remember the Marines got the Corsair first...before the Navy.
The Marines then and now - ALWAYS get the cast-offs...it has never changed.
Now ask yourself - Why did the Navy cast off the Corsair in favor of the Hellcat?

< Message edited by Big B -- 3/7/2019 2:30:26 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 3/7/2019 12:04:55 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Wasn't it primarily deck performance issues that caused the Navy to choose the Hellcat over the Corsair?

The large prop, effecting the angle at which the aircraft sat at on deck, and the far to the rear set cockpit of the Corsair made pilot visibility while maneuvering on deck a challenge.



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Hans


(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 19
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 3/7/2019 1:35:05 PM   
Gewehr_43

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 1/10/2019
Status: offline 		I noticed this too. I was so excited to start getting the Hellcat in numbers, but when I put them on a fighter sweep over a Japanese base with A6M3s, they got cut to ribbons. My pilots were at a 77 experience level, so they weren't novices by any stretch.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 20
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 3/7/2019 4:12:46 PM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Even with DBB-C mod, Hellcat seems to underperform. Still seems to do well against the various Zero models, but not as well as I "think" it should, based on its history. But then again, in the actual war, the Hellcat was up against a much depleted pilot pool - poorly trained for the most part. In WiTP, the pilots the Hellcats face in the game are usually equal to their opponents.

Still, Corsair is superior, and its a good day when the -1A appears to be able to get it on CVs! 36 Hellcats with 12 Corsairs is mighty fine mix for US CVs in '44!!

(in reply to Gewehr_43)
Post #: 21
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 3/7/2019 4:56:47 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		36 of each is an even better mix in '45.

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Hans


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Post #: 22
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 3/7/2019 4:59:40 PM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline 		@Big B Does you mod attempt to address the under-powered nature of the Hellcat in stock/DBB-C?

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 23
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 3/9/2019 3:35:02 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

@Big B Does you mod attempt to address the under-powered nature of the Hellcat in stock/DBB-C?


Yes, it's faster than stock (speeds taken from US Navy performance tests here) and more maneuverable - but still based on the same universal maneuver formulas for all aircraft in the game.

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Post #: 24
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 3/10/2019 6:37:07 AM   
Saturn V

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 9/12/2013
Status: offline 		In terms of the performance characteristics in-game, below are some figures from the game, if I'm remembering them correctly. These may not quite be the right models for the time period given in the opening post, but hopefully the comparison might still be helpful.

F6F-5 Hellcat
Max. speed: 380 mph
Cruise speed: 200 mph
Ceiling: 37,300 ft
Climb: 2,980 ft/min
Radius: 255 nm
Extended radius: 320 nm
Range: 820 nm
Maneuver rating by altitude band:
below 10,000 ft: 19
10,000–15,000 ft: 19
16,000–20,000 ft: 19
21,000–31,000 ft: 19
above 32,000 ft: 16

F4U-1D Corsair
Max. speed: 425 mph
Cruise speed: 182 mph
Ceiling: 39,300 ft
Climb: 3,120 ft/min
Radius: 220 nm
Extended radius: 275 nm
Range: 705 nm
Maneuver rating by altitude band:
below 10,000 ft: 19
10,000–15,000 ft: 19
16,000–20,000 ft: 19
21,000–31,000 ft: 17
above 32,000 ft: 13


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Wasn't it primarily deck performance issues that caused the Navy to choose the Hellcat over the Corsair?

The large prop, effecting the angle at which the aircraft sat at on deck, and the far to the rear set cockpit of the Corsair made pilot visibility while maneuvering on deck a challenge.

As I recall, there were three main issues: (1) poor visibility over the nose during carrier landing approaches; (2) too much bounce in the gear upon landing; (3) a propensity to enter a spin when stalling at low speed. All of these issues were eventually rectified and the fighter entered service on USN carriers. (The RN had already been using it successfully aboard its carriers for some time before that.)


< Message edited by Saturn V -- 3/10/2019 6:39:29 AM >

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 25
RE: Corsair vs. Hellcat - 3/10/2019 10:20:47 PM   
AndrewNguyen1984

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 6/9/2017
Status: offline 		Were there any database updates in the game to try and address the issue and put a better match on the Hellcat's performance. If so, can these be used for the standard databases for the stock scenarios.

(in reply to Saturn V)
Post #: 26
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