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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/11/2019 8:25:06 PM   
DekeFentle

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 3/11/2019
Status: offline 		Quick thumbs up and thanks for the extensive, well done presentation sir!

Still trying to muddle through figuring out the German air game for the first few turns. Can't seem to get near that 5,000 plus kill on T1. Any recommended reading would be much appreciated.

(in reply to ledo)
Post #: 31
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/12/2019 1:25:49 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		@Ledo: I did include it :-)
You may also like those lines from this thread: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2651360

You know when you hooked on WitE

quote:

When you only stack 3 plates on top of each other after dinner.


quote:

.......When you are afraid of taking two plates off a stack of three because you think the third will fly across the kitchen and smash!


quote:

When you wife says you do not provide her any Support and you say that is because her Level is O and she is Locked.


@DekeFentle: Welcome on the forum and thank you :-)

4.6 has a short description of what to do. The AAR on a 8-player game here has many good posts on the air war, make sure to check it out if you have some time: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=910

This AAR by HLYA also has fine walkthrough for T1 air field bombing: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4426690&mpage=1&key=�

The basic idea is to use air transfer to place air groups close to the targets and put Ju87 in a forward position where they can bomb many airfields from, because they are EXTREMELY effective.

I hope that helps.
Regards
EvK

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 3/12/2019 2:39:19 PM >

_____________________________

The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players

(in reply to DekeFentle)
Post #: 32
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/17/2019 7:33:59 PM   
Cirque_du_Melee

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 3/17/2019
Status: offline 		As a person new to WitE, I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate on your method for achieving an optimal German T1 move. However, your technique does raise some concerns in my mind. Because, if we grant (and of course its debatable) that WitE is a fairly accurate simulation of Barbarossa and the War in the East, then your pocketing of the the Lvov area Soviet forces on the first turn is notable. My understanding is that the whole AGS crew (i.e. Rundstedt, Kleist, Reichenau, and Stulpnagel) found it very tough going in the south from the very beginning. Now, don't get me wrong, if they were incompetent, incapable, or you personally are a genius, then congrats. Otherwise, it seems a bit gamey to me. Or, I should say that I would derive no satisfaction from accomplishing that feat in the game when it would not have been likely to have occured in real.

Not only that but its something your can do every game. Might as well have the first turn start on June 29 with all the pockets in place.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 33
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/17/2019 10:25:38 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cirque_du_Melee

As a person new to WitE, I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate on your method for achieving an optimal German T1 move. However, your technique does raise some concerns in my mind. Because, if we grant (and of course its debatable) that WitE is a fairly accurate simulation of Barbarossa and the War in the East, then your pocketing of the the Lvov area Soviet forces on the first turn is notable. My understanding is that the whole AGS crew (i.e. Rundstedt, Kleist, Reichenau, and Stulpnagel) found it very tough going in the south from the very beginning. Now, don't get me wrong, if they were incompetent, incapable, or you personally are a genius, then congrats. Otherwise, it seems a bit gamey to me. Or, I should say that I would derive no satisfaction from accomplishing that feat in the game when it would not have been likely to have occured in real.

Not only that but its something your can do every game. Might as well have the first turn start on June 29 with all the pockets in place.



First and foremost, I would say WITE is a game and not a simulation. It does an excellent job of giving the player a great feel for the operational flow of Panzer divisions in the Eastern front vs a quantity of forces that multiply into quality. However, as I have stated before … the Battle of Brody is impossible to simulate in this game. Operationally a pure simulation would have statistical probabilities for certain devices to match other devices during combat. (As opposed to a totally random encounter that could match Soviet infantry vs a siege mortar .possible but not as likely). But WITE is fun and provides lot of entertainment -- until in my opinion players start getting wrapped up in the definition of "historical." It is like meeting the soulmate of your life and then focus on a facial mole ..

If you are not reloading .. the Hasty attacks have lots of randomness . thus the opening is not guaranteed. In fact, the deliberate attacks are not guaranteed but with enough thinking one can provide a high degree of certainty. But the IGOYOUGo turn sequence does encourage an optimum opening for sure … not seen as much in a wego system ….


_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Cirque_du_Melee)
Post #: 34
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/18/2019 12:38:39 AM   
Cirque_du_Melee

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 3/17/2019
Status: offline 		I see your points and they make sense. Yeah, the Dubno situation was interesting.Not to mention the several early attacks against PG4 in AGN by Soviet armor elements.

I guess a game that allowed a realtime fight (ala the timescale/system on Hearts of Iron 3) might better simulate what was actually possible (though I would imagine the game would be unplayable except for the most dedicated grognards, lolz). I think Nigel Askey's Operationbarbarossa project looks promising (though I don't know much about it or if it will ever come to fruition). They have a Russian front/Barbarossa map at 2.5 kilometers per hex completed or almost (Based on actual period maps that are kept at a university in Texas). You can view the map online at Nigel's website by the way.

< Message edited by Cirque_du_Melee -- 3/18/2019 1:01:53 AM >

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 35
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/18/2019 7:08:54 AM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		First, great guide EvK. I just came across this today. Really well done.... where does one find the time.

Ledo - really, the German decision to destroy soviets or press east isn't up to the German player, it's up to the Soviet player. To me, the German priority has to be the destruction of the Soviet army and taking out key industry when you get the opportunity (for example, a dash to Kharkov if the 51 KV factory hasn't been evac'ed at all yet). But if the Russian runs, east it is.

Cirque du Melee - Historically, Army Group South did find it tough sledding. But in this opening AGS is reinforced with about half of another Panzer Group from Army Group Center. Had that been the case historically, perhaps they wouldn't have found it quite as difficult.

Crackaces - yes, hasty attack results are mixed, but for the most part, this opening (or slightly different variants of it) are pretty much guaranteed. Occasionally the single division attack on Riga will fail, but that doesn't really change anything at all....

I think the most fiddly part is being sure there is enough MP's to cut the rail lines just west of Zhitomir on the south side. This is one area where the hasty attacks clearing that route can matter, but even in the worst case you end up cutting the rail 1 hex further west which allows 1 extra stack of Soviets to get away rather than trapping them all. My version of this opening is a bit different in that I don't care as much if the pockets hold so I tend not to break down as many units for securing them. I also try to leave a unit adjacent to Proskurov so the Soviets there can't rail out. And I never attack anything in the big center pocket other than to clear movements lanes preferring instead to move as much infantry as possible east as quickly as possible. I also prioritize taking Kaunus on Turn 1. There are a few other insignificant differences as well, but the overall objective is the same - prevent the escape of as many soviets as possible. It's a devastating open and generally speaking the best soviet response is to run far away and preserve what you have left.

I do need to study the air war part of it though as I typically end up with about 2600-3000 kills but I don't do any of the air transfer stuff. It's a bit cheesy I think and that is probably one house rule i'd agree to as GHC command. Back when I was playing pre-1.07, it was pretty typical to have house rules limiting air base bombing throughout the game other than on turn 1.... I've never paid too much attention to the Air War. Perhaps I should...…

In my current relearning game against the AI using an opening similar to this, it's turn 9, I completely messed up my rail lines and even accidentally transferred all of an entire panzergroup to AGS where poor Rundstedt now has a -83...… And I've pretty much run out of Soviet units to encircle and Moscow should fall next turn or the turn after at most. The Russians just don't seem to have very many units left...…….

(in reply to Cirque_du_Melee)
Post #: 36
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/18/2019 5:06:09 PM   
joelmar


Posts: 1023
Joined: 3/16/2019
Status: offline 		Thank you EvK, I also am new to the game, been playing a couple of scenarios against the AI, but really addicted to it and all the details... I completely relate to Crackaces mention of finding a soulmate a couple of comments earlier. As for that discussion with Cirque_du_melee, I'm a history buff, but don't mind if the playing is not 100% historical. In truth, I believe the Germans in reality didn't handle Barbarossa very well, too much infighting about panzer doctrine and changes of objectives meant that it ended up far from realizing it's potential. If Manstein had been in overall charge, things might have been really different! Manstein, not Guderian! lol! Anyway, the big picture is there, and the game is really educative in many aspects, even against the AI...

I read much of the old stuff in the forum, Pelton, Crackaces, Telemecus, HLYA etc who all gave me really good insights... but I still learned a lot going through your guide, the high point being the understanding of micromanagement of TOE. And that trick of replacing commanders with good ones already on the map is brilliant. I now have Balcke, Weiss and Der Mensch Hube and a couple of low odds commanders out of the way... and for the last 2 they only lost one point of political rating, which is not so bad I think!

I love micromanagement, and mostly, I don't find it that hard to do in WitE once you understand the why's and how's. The exception, are airbases and Airgroups of course, which are horrendous to deal with at best. I really hope they will fix that in the next version of the game. Transfer of units and deployement are much too complicated and nothing in real life warrants that complexity. The transfer only to higher ID's while on the same hex is particularly bad and serves no purpose that I can see. But that's kind of the same problem as not being able to alternate the units stacked on a hex so the we can choose the one that's on top, like in Panthers in the Fog by exemple and I think it's a weird oversight by the programmers... Anyway, that's my opinion.

At the moment, I am at turn 7 of a campaign against the AI, and I am experimenting with the management of supplies and trucks. I find it's quite hard to align statistics to have a good idea of what's going on in those areas. For example, I did a few tests moving airbases. Pelton in his Axis guide mentions to never move airbases in mass, as it's not good for truck management, but doesn't explain exactly why. I didn't question that, even though I tend to not follow his advice too closely. But recent experimentations gave me the impression that what matters is not if airbases are moved or not, but the MP needed to supply them. Also, is it more economical to have trucks move more fuel to airbases, or have planes flying more miles, so consuming more fuel, taking more trucks to supply them next turn. Really not easy questions to answer, or I should say, I still haven't found ways to understand exactly what's going on under the hood.

I think I should start using the editor to create test scenarios.

Anyway, I should try my hand at Multi-player as Axis in a near future and I am looking forward to it. Got to go through blizzard and learn to defend effectively in adverse conditions first... :-)



(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 37
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/18/2019 5:54:09 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		@Melee: Welcome on the forum!
You are completely right that the T1 is complete fantasy. My original motivation for WitE was the fascination for moving frontlines and a bit historical interest, but then became the appealing intellectual challenge to optimise and analysing WitE and its dynamics, and the challenge to develop and execute war-winning strategies/tactics against an opposing will. The historical immersion is a lower priority and non-existant during play.
Maybe that explains how to draw satisfaction out of this approach :-)
Regarding gameyness, I think I do nothing against the intention expressed in the manual and the patchnotes, aka no outright exploits. That means, placing the HQ in the right distance from the railhead according to the supply system can still cause over-the-top effects, but is according to the rules, as opposed for something like "hit key X and get 100 extra admin points".
Apart from this, I have always stated that I like to minmax and use optimised openings, so it was playing with open cards.

If you want to disable some gamey strategies, it can easily be done by houserules or a gentlemens agreement or by choosing like-minded opponents.

@Crackaces: Agree :-)

@MattFL: Am happy you like the guide as well. Making the T1 well ordered (few isolated spearheads, no broken pockets etc.) simply has good rewards on T2, so I like to invest resources for this, one should also have T2 in mind. This being said, one can of course argue for less tight T1 encirclements and more rail-locks in the Proskurov area, for example. I experimented with this, but was not satisfied with the result. Cutting the rail may be sufficient to deny a rail-out from the Proskurov area, but not necessarily prevent disbanding, so you kill the unit shell, but not the equipment. Maybe one can reshuffle some resource allocations to achieve both, you are invited to post your alternative ideas if you like (all other readers are invited too)!

@joelmar: Welcome to the forum to you as well! Agree about the air war. I would say I have a good overall understanding of it, but only deal with it because it is an important part of the game and necessary to have a chance vs. good opponents, not really because of intrinsic interest.
Where does "THe Mensch" nickname for hube come from?

Regarding supplies management, there are some articles in the library of WitE resources (linked in my signature/pinned in the war room), with different levels of detail.
The point about air base movement is that air bases contain many trucks, and movement attrition is proportional to the number of MPs used and the number of trucks in the unit.
But due to the weird design of the WitE supply system, having more than 100% of the truck requirement in the motor pool has NO effect, so truck saving is not that important in the summer of 1941, only from the blizzard 1941 onwards.

Regarding how to place air bases, make sure to use staging bases so you can have the air bases in the rear and still attack targets far into the enemy land. I however care more about flown miles/aircraft fatigue than about truck attrition in 1941.

From own exp I can only recomment to start playing quickly, it allows you to judge correctly which parts of the game are important, otherwise one can get lost in the vast amount of details.

Regards
EvK




< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 3/18/2019 5:58:29 PM >

_____________________________

The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players

(in reply to joelmar)
Post #: 38
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/18/2019 7:41:14 PM   
joelmar


Posts: 1023
Joined: 3/16/2019
Status: offline 		EwaldvonKleist: I would love to micromanage the air force if the system was easier and more flexible. It's such an important part of warfare, as you say. But this just doesn't make sense and needs too much thinking just to make it work in some orderly fashion, and even that doesn't mean you get it right... anyway. I am better in that than I was and it's already OK.

Hube's nickname came from Adolf Hitler who was his #1 fan. Hube was one of the rare assets Hitler got out of the Stalingrad cauldron in the last weeks before surrender. He didn't want to loose him and it payed off as Hube was the real victor of the Sicilian campaign, not Patton or Monty in their silly race to Messina. Hube was tough, brillant and he had big balls, hence the nickname ;-)

For the rest, don't worry, I will get around to playing human opponents soon enough. For now there are too many things in the basics I am still in the process of mastering. Learning is a big part of my pleasure in everything I do and I am now in this process which I don't want to spoil with the pressure I will put on myself when I play a human opponent. And even though the AI does some pretty stupid things sometimes, like leaving Kiev undefended with my panzers not far in the fourth turn, or airbases and headquarters alone defending large areas... lol! I know a human opponent will never do that (well... at least should not!) and so I tend to play like I would do against a good human player, no over the top things and keep everything tidy. My goal is a decisive victory and I play with the +1 CV for the soviets, so it's not that easy and I must not loose time or make big mistakes.


(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 39
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/18/2019 7:48:34 PM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		joelmar I strongly advice playing Soviet side for your first HvH game. Also +1CV and full Blizzard is real killer. Basically Soviets can hasty attack everything in sight.

Regarding the airwar. WitE2 is using similar system as WitW so it is completely different from WitE.

(in reply to joelmar)
Post #: 40
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/18/2019 9:35:55 PM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

EvK: @MattFL: Am happy you like the guide as well. Making the T1 well ordered (few isolated spearheads, no broken pockets etc.) simply has good rewards on T2, so I like to invest resources for this, one should also have T2 in mind. This being said, one can of course argue for less tight T1 encirclements and more rail-locks in the Proskurov area, for example. I experimented with this, but was not satisfied with the result. Cutting the rail may be sufficient to deny a rail-out from the Proskurov area, but not necessarily prevent disbanding, so you kill the unit shell, but not the equipment. Maybe one can reshuffle some resource allocations to achieve both, you are invited to post your alternative ideas if you like (all other readers are invited too)!



I agree with you 100% that it's not about Turn 1, rather I tend to view Turns 1-3 as almost a single continuous action. I also sort of encourage the Soviets to break pockets with units that are outside of the pockets (it's irresistible) because the net results are more dead soviets who could have gotten away as it's inevitable that the pockets will be sealed in this opening. The reason I don't break down the units at the expense of weaker pockets is I want max movement on Turn 2 and if the soviet cleverly hugs the panzer regiments, it can cost more than you'd like to reform them for the next drive on Turn 2. I break them down to seal the pockets permanently on Turn 2 as I know i'm going to have fuel on Turn 2 but more than likely won't have fuel on Turn 3, so leaving them broken down at the end of Turn 2 knowing they will need to rest up for fuel on Turn 3 makes sense to me. Additionally, to me it's more important that the width of the penetrations be maintained, particularly at the base where the infantry is so that the infantry can race east on Turns 2/3 (i.e. hex flipping). My end of Turn 2 goals are typically breaching Pskov, breaching the land bridge, and crossing the Dnepr rendering it useless. But this is of course totally dependent on what the Soviets do and as GHC you have to take what the soviets give. So if they stand and fight then expanding the encirclements takes priority over reaching certain terrain points. I also take my sweet time reducing the pockets to delay the units coming back into the game dedicating security units and maybe a corps or two total to reduce all pockets. Again, the priority is getting the infantry east to catch up to the panzers so that they can work together on Turn 4 or Turn 5 when the next major push is made. It's this next push on Turn 4/5 that is usually the one that is devastating. So for me, turns 1-3 are a continuous act and it all resets on Turn 4 where the soviet actions and deployment determine what comes next. In the end though these are pretty minor differences from a high level perspective. One part of your opening that I'm going to borrow from liberally is putting more emphasis on the retreat priorities to get units to go where you want them to go. My play style is such that I play it far more fast and loose than you do and if I slowed down a bit and was a bit more calculated, I'd probably net a few more units.


As for the Soviets disbanding, really I'm not sure that it's in their best interest to do so unless they are certain that units won't get away or won't at all hamper in any way the German onslaught. I suppose it would have value to salvage all of that equipment to fill out new units faster.


Here is my turn 1 from the current game I'm playing (please note that I didn't save each turn, so this is the soviet auto save at the end of Soviet 1/Start of GHC T2). I played this pretty quick and dirty as I'm just playing to refamiliarize myself with the game and it was never meant for sharing. It was less than ideal in several areas, most notably the failed attack on Riga (by TWO panzer divisions, one at a time though with pioneers, leadership etc.) and I think I attacked the units in Minsk just to see what would happen and they retreated out of ZOC lock. Otherwise i can't figure out where those units are. Also had a tough time clearing units in the south so didn't get to the ideal hex...But generally it's similar and on Turn 2 I want the infantry to seal the pockets in the south permanently by moving east along the lanes created while the armor expands the pockets to net more units. On Turn 2 I break down nearly all of the panzers/mot to secure things. I also take more of AGC south than I think you do. I find in turns 1-5 the tanks/mot are more useful in the south than the north. I also transfer the turn 1 fixed Group of orange units to AGC to make up for it. It really doesn't matter too much anyway as I like to link AGC and AGS back together as quickly as possible with most of that drive coming from AGS going north then AGC coming south so that I have massive power to assault Moscow. In general I tend to be a "good at pushing counters around" guy rather than someone who has totally mastered the ins and outs of this system. I do focus on MP/Distance to rails etc in supply detail and as GHC probably put more emphasis on that than other areas of micro management. And I clearly need to get better at the air war. I do perform fighter sweeps as GHC, but that's about the extent of it.

I'm currently in the middle of Turn 9 and probably won't finish because there are pretty much no worlds left to conquer so it's becoming a waste of time. This was played with +1 in effect, so pocket breaking is a bit easier. Of course it's against the AI, so forming new pockets are gimme's.

Overall, your guide is just superb. I can feel SHC players gnashing teeth as with this guide, just about every game will start with this super Lvov type opening. Really, if just a few Russian counters were repositioned just a little bit, the zoc locking west of Zhitomir could probably be eliminated and I don't think that would necessarily be a bad thing.... Even though this opening is great, I still think the soviets can withstand it and go on to win if they don't compound the opening by trying to fight on Turns 4/5 I the center or south. Fight in the north, retreat out of range in the center and south and let distance do it's work while strength is regained.

Start of GT2.

Turn 9 in Progress when i retire the game.




(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 41
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/18/2019 10:32:23 PM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		Also, on your google drive EvK, do you have the save at the end of the GHC turn? Would like to look at it from the Russian side and I just don't have the strength to play another full Turn 1 as GHC just so I can look at it from the Russian side. If yes, please advise which file it is (.03).

Thanks!

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 42
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/19/2019 3:40:43 AM   
joelmar


Posts: 1023
Joined: 3/16/2019
Status: offline 		EvK: Found your spreadsheet with the supply calculations, interesting reference, thanks. Still have to work things out a bit, but from what I understand a good general guideline for airbases is to keep them as much as possible within 10 hexes and the less MP possible from the railhead, with the exception of one to serve as staging base nearer to the front with units with low supply needs like fighters or dive bombers, and keeping the higher ID of that front empty for use in transfers and try to advance only a couple airbases each turn, that should do for most situations I think and will be as simple as I can think of. The Slovak and Rumanian airbases make things easier in the south for the Kabuki. About Hube I would like to add that the decision to bring him out of Stalingrad was IMO one of Hitler's very few good decisions after taking overall and complete command of the German armed forces at the end of 1941... don't want any confusion on where I stand about the man!

821Bobo: thanks for the advice, but after 2 months of heavy playing I am just beginning to know and understand the Axis forces to my satisfaction, so I don't have the courage for in depth learning of the Soviets at the moment. But yeah, I will get to them later on for sure :-)

For WitE2 and Airbase management, I also read that in a post about WitE2. Great news. I will most probably try WitW sometimes in the future as that looks quite interesting too... but for now... the East!

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 43
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/19/2019 3:27:25 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		@MattFL: There are no saves of a complete practice run under 1.11.03, only the North/Centre part I think. But have a look at the test runs under 1.10.00 and 1.11.01 which are complete and step by step (without admin/air base bombing/SU attachement and all the other fiddly stuff of course).

Re your opening, fine for a practice run after some absence! It looks like a human player could cause some cut-offs. Regarding Minsk, the Ai can warp units around, that is how they escaped from Minsk.

Btw. I counsel to have a second look at the location of the Dnepr and Smolensk on your map :P


@Joelmar: Thanks for the explanation regarding Hube.

Regards
EvK


_____________________________

The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players

(in reply to joelmar)
Post #: 44
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/19/2019 3:35:37 PM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		Regarding that opening basically what EvK said. You won't get away with this against decent human opponent. Most of the pockets can be broken.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 45
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/19/2019 4:21:50 PM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Regarding that opening basically what EvK said. You won't get away with this against decent human opponent. Most of the pockets can be broken.




A few points, remember, this is shown AFTER soviet T1 (start of GHC T2) so the Soviets have already moved (granted, AI Moved!). So the airborne units in the north which on this map could break the pocket have already tried to break the pocket. I don't have a save at the end of my Turn 1 because I wasn't saving, just playing and the SHC would auto save, not GHC. I can't say if the pockets would be broken or not as I don't have the end GHC T1 to review to show Russian positions at that time or hex control. But....as I also said, I don't really care if the pockets are broken and if they are broken from units outside the pockets, all the better, that's just more units that i'll encircle on T2. I don't finalize the pockets until end of GHC T2. So I will absolutely get away with it against even the best soviet human opponent becuase there isn't anything they can do to stop me from expanding and finalizing the pockets on T2 which is really my objective per my text above the maps.


I was really only showing this becuase the concepts are the same but my priorities are a bit different than EvK. I prioritize max movement on T2, not 100% sealing the pockets on T1, and as such i don't break down nearly as many Pz/Mot divisions even though in doing so i could shore up the pockets a lot more.








< Message edited by MattFL -- 3/19/2019 4:26:56 PM >

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 46
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/19/2019 4:34:01 PM   
MattFL

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@MattFL: There are no saves of a complete practice run under 1.11.03, only the North/Centre part I think. But have a look at the test runs under 1.10.00 and 1.11.01 which are complete and step by step (without admin/air base bombing/SU attachement and all the other fiddly stuff of course).

Re your opening, fine for a practice run after some absence! It looks like a human player could cause some cut-offs. Regarding Minsk, the Ai can warp units around, that is how they escaped from Minsk.

Btw. I counsel to have a second look at the location of the Dnepr and Smolensk on your map :P


@Joelmar: Thanks for the explanation regarding Hube.

Regards
EvK



Thanks, I'll take a look at them. As much as I enjoy playing GHC (though I've played many games as both sides), I think what will be more challenging/interesting will be to devise a soviet response to openings such as yours. So something of a look at this from the other side for SHC players on how best to maximize what's not trapped on Turns say 1-5, particularly with the goal of avoiding the Turn 5 onslaught that seemed to be the real cause of the end of your two run throughs of this. Will be a good mental exercise as well as help me refamiliarize myself with the SHC response capabilities after years not playing.


Yes, my panzers move so quickly that they reached Smolensk on Turn 1 and using clever Air Transfer I was able to breach the Dnepr with Army Group North. Amazing eh?

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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/19/2019 4:45:31 PM   
821Bobo


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Status: offline 		Yes its hard to tell because AI already moved but best way how to practise T1 is playing against yourself. That way you will test if the pockets are safe.

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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/19/2019 5:43:45 PM   
MattFL

 

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quote:

Yes its hard to tell because AI already moved but best way how to practise T1 is playing against yourself. That way you will test if the pockets are safe.



I did that a little bit before this game, but this particular game was meant to be my full AI game run through to prep myself for playing head to head again against good players here. Haven't played since 1.07..... So it was more a game about mechanics, supply, organizing the armies, etc. just to remember how it all works. And really, I still don't do most of those things as well as I used to and it's challenging to come to grips with the differences between when I used to play and now. Most likely only more games and perhaps an ass whipping or two will get me back to where I was. Seems much has changed in the last 4 years....

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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/19/2019 6:24:54 PM   
joelmar


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Status: offline 		BTW, for the historically oriented people, the super LVOV pocket opening could be equated to the idea that Hitler had always been more in favor of putting the prime objectives in the south and the Donbas and that Barbarossa was a compromise he did with OKH, who wanted to make Moscow the prime objective of the campaign. So if Hitler had been solely in charge in 1941 as he did 1942 onwards, there's a strong probability that at least a panzer corps and more air groups would have been affected directly to AGS from the beginning.

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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/19/2019 6:41:58 PM   
821Bobo


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Status: offline 		But it doesn't take into account that Soviets were better prepared and gave better fight in south.

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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/19/2019 8:42:13 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

iii) Hardluckyetagain http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4267387 Very effective in the South with moderate cost to the North and Centre.



I believe this would be just as good if not better than the example that you showed from me. This link has the added benefit of the Air War shown in better detail. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4426690&mpage=2&key=

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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/19/2019 8:49:45 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Regarding that opening basically what EvK said. You won't get away with this against decent human opponent. Most of the pockets can be broken.


I have found that allowing the Soviets freedom of movement in some of these pockets could be detrimental to the Germans with a pocket open(although the one in the South was intentionally left open it looks like in EvK's example). That is why if you look at my links that EvK kindly posted you will see, in the South especially, that I try and lock Soviet movement down with broken down division into Regiments to restrict movement to just a hex. Even in over 13+ games as the Germans using this opening I never had a single Soviet open a single pocket by me limiting the Soviet movement. Overall this is an excellent writeup and can advance a beginning player to intermediate level pretty quick if they understand the principals behind all that EvK has written here. Excellent job Evk.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 3/19/2019 8:52:30 PM >

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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide for Axis player - 3/19/2019 9:29:24 PM   
joelmar


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quote:

821Bobo: But it doesn't take into account that Soviets were better prepared and gave better fight in south.


maybe if Rundstedt had disposed of another panzer corps or 2, more planes and crack troops, that perception of the soviets being better prepared and fighting better in the south would have been much less. One thing is certain, if Hitler had had 100% his way, things would have been exactly like that. And seeing how Panzer Group 2 comes really fast to the end of its tether in the game following historic timeline and routes, as was also pretty much the case in real life, for once it might have been the better decision, get to Kiev fast and attack north to link up with Pz Gr 3 instead of the opposite.

HYLA: that AAR is really good, it's been in my bookmarks for a few weeks, learned a few tricks in there. Thanks.


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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/19/2019 9:54:47 PM   
MattFL

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

iii) Hardluckyetagain http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4267387 Very effective in the South with moderate cost to the North and Centre.



I believe this would be just as good if not better than the example that you showed from me. This link has the added benefit of the Air War shown in better detail. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4426690&mpage=2&key=


Certainly a good opening for sure, but it's overkill in the south as all of the units you get are dead anyway with fewer units comitted and you fail to deal with the units around Minsk which to me is a non-starter. Just gotta have those guys.

Thanks for sharing that as it's really helpful seeing in detail how you manage the air war. I really need to start paying more attention to that....

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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/19/2019 10:14:51 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MattFL


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

iii) Hardluckyetagain http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4267387 Very effective in the South with moderate cost to the North and Centre.



I believe this would be just as good if not better than the example that you showed from me. This link has the added benefit of the Air War shown in better detail. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4426690&mpage=2&key=


Certainly a good opening for sure, but it's overkill in the south as all of the units you get are dead anyway with fewer units comitted and you fail to deal with the units around Minsk which to me is a non-starter. Just gotta have those guys.

Thanks for sharing that as it's really helpful seeing in detail how you manage the air war. I really need to start paying more attention to that....



A hungry German player ;-) Gotta love the attitude. (it is a good thing btw)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 3/19/2019 10:15:18 PM >

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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/19/2019 10:38:09 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Status: offline 		Combined reply @ all: The pockets in the opening posted are designed to hold assuming usual luck distribution and the 1st turn MP of Soviet units. I just avoid investing resources on hugging Sovs when it is not necessary due to the MP allowance Soviet units get on T1. Making more ZOC locks in the South can be done as shown in HLYAs AARs but you lose a not insignificant number of unit kills in the Centre and PG3 has to take a detour Southeast instead of East OR you have to accept a leaky centre pocket and cut offs (Psycho0 or mktours way IIRC) from the approaches I have seen so far. Only MichaelTs old Super Lvov could have both with some changes IMO but that was under old ruleset before T1 Axis regiment MP rules were nerfed (Axis regiment MP rules currently are harder on T1/T2 than for the rest of the game. I am not complaining but it is interesting to know).

Note that there likely is further optimisation possible for my opening in the South even if we set force distribution North-South as constant. It has been developed for 1.10.00 and the new motorized Cav division added in 1.11.00 is maybe able to swap position with other mot units for more efficient unit use. I just ran out of interest to invest even more time in opening development but am always interested if someone has new ideas.

I will not have the time for many in-detail reply's now and in the coming weeks so excuse in advance if answering here takes time/is brief :-)
Regards
EvK

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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/20/2019 12:38:26 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Combined reply @ all: The pockets in the opening posted are designed to hold assuming usual luck distribution and the 1st turn MP of Soviet units. I just avoid investing resources on hugging Sovs when it is not necessary due to the MP allowance Soviet units get on T1. Making more ZOC locks in the South can be done as shown in HLYAs AARs but you lose a not insignificant number of unit kills in the Centre and PG3 has to take a detour Southeast instead of East OR you have to accept a leaky centre pocket and cut offs (Psycho0 or mktours way IIRC) from the approaches I have seen so far. Only MichaelTs old Super Lvov could have both with some changes IMO but that was under old ruleset before T1 Axis regiment MP rules were nerfed (Axis regiment MP rules currently are harder on T1/T2 than for the rest of the game. I am not complaining but it is interesting to know).



The "not insignificant number of unit kills in the center" equals 4 units "surrounded" in the center. The rest either routed or shattered. I get that and not a bad play at all. Totally up to the person playing Germans on how they want to handle their game when using this guide.

The snapshot below has in RED the large open Lvov pocket not restricting the Soviet movement. Blue is the units I surround turn 1 in my AAR. To me to play around down south by giving Soviets move capability with their units you are asking for trouble as I mentioned earlier. There is nothing wrong with your tactic & I get why you did such a move for the South. I am just pointing out it could become a little messy if you allow the Soviets to move to others who may be reading this and not realize it. Granted the Germans can contain this pretty easily, but just how much time will the Germans invest to do that. To me setting up to immediately eliminate these extra units turn 2 far outweigh doing "Round up" turn 2 in the south by the Germans with the possibility of a unit routing totally out of this containment. (Most Armor and Mech units of the Soviets are brittle and may route pretty easily if the attacks are done incorrectly) So you could end up with a wash of what you surrounded in the center. Again neither side is wrong or right. Just a matter of opinion which has gotten totally into the "over" optimization phase of the game ;-)

I will post my pictures of my game against Beender where he had a similar pocket open like yours Evk I circled in RED. Took Beender till turn 4 to clean up.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 3/20/2019 12:42:22 AM >

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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/20/2019 2:08:54 AM   
MattFL

 

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Status: offline 		HYLA, I definitely agree with your comment above. The blue ideally should be encircled while the guys to the east are simply ZOC locked to prevent their escape. At least that's how I do it... I didn't notice this before.

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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/20/2019 2:30:51 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Status: offline 		@HLYA: We do not need to discuss if it is nice to have the unit in the blue circle encircled on T1 and the one in the red box hugged tightly. No debate necessary and I would gladly take this if it is for free. But it is not and the question always comes down to if it is worth the cost to the Centre/Northern Centre.

You say that the difference is 4 units "surrounded" in the Centre. The number must be somewhat put into context. There are two possible definitions of "surrounded" here, if you mean out of supply the number is true according to the screenshots, although some units routed instead of retreated so my kills are is a bit lower than on average. Also note that there is an extra panzer div South of Rovno which does not seem to be trapped by your opening (I think it can be trapped while preserving the overall characteristic of your opening but am not sure and have not worked out the details).

If one means "surrounded=out of supply and/or trapped for T2 encirclement", which IMO is the more useful definition (the Soviet player in the summer will not really care if his unit has been encircled on T1 or just ZOC-locked for T2 encirclement), you give away considerably more with your opening in the North/Centre than 4 units.

Below is a map showing the differences. I made it quickly from memeory as WitE is not on the hard drive anymore but it should be correct. Ignore the markings on the air fields, it is an old map.

Dark Blue are units trapped by opening EvK but not opening HLYA. Orange is the unit trapped by opening HLYA but not opening EvK. Light blue is a unit which I think routs out in most cases in opening HLYA but not in opening EvK.
Green are units which are sometimes trapped by opening EvK but never by opening HLYA, it depends on rout results/if the riga attack succeeds immediately. Purple are units which are attacked with good chance to rout (with an existent, but small chance to trap them in T2) in opening EvK but not opening HLYA.



If you do the counting, there is a difference of 8 blue units, one orange unit, one light blue unit, and 4 green units.

So if the opening works as planned, opening EvK has a 7 unit advantage for sure, +1 very likely and +4 with moderate chances depending on RNG. Assuming bad but not terrible luck, I say 8 units or 15 command points. For that advantage I have no problem to trade some hugging of Soviet units in the South. The purple units are not counted at all as there is too much RNG involved.

The risky part is if the ZOC locking on the Eastern side can be opened by counterattacks. There is a certain chance and I know and accept that risk. But even if the Soviets open it up a bit, they will have expended MPs for the attacks and struggle to move far away to disband, railing out is even more unlikely.

What your opening has is more safety clearance. But so far it has worked for me in tests and server game, even if the sample size is not that big.

What happened on T2 and onwards can be found in the Total war-AAR in the AAR section, the link is in the first post of this thread.

You drew parallels to the beender game. Without doubt there is some vulnerability for counterattacks, but different from beenders opening, there are less gaps/more split ups so one can not simply walk through without combat.
For illustration, here is a resurrected part of your deleted AAR (google cache), beenders Southern T1.


Much of the challenges for beender came from opening of the Lvov pocket on T1, opening EvK has some precautions to make this more difficult (has better unit placement on Rumanian border).


All comments assume no +1 as in your AARs, with +1 I would play many things different and go back to the drawing table.


I think both for your all South approach and for more balanced ones unit distribution wise and mixed breeds of both there is some space for further improvement, I have lost interest in investing time to this but am always interested in other approaches by others/you.

Regards
EvK



< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 3/20/2019 3:04:36 PM >

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